Shane Williams greater than Gareth Edwards?

Once he retires completely from rugby does anyone think he will be regarded as a better player than the great Edwards?

I know that players today can't always be compared to Edwards, but Williams has had a lot more caps, scored a lot more tries & has popped up all over the backline in various positions during important parts of the game. Also Williams has played in some awful Wales teams and scored great tries against some of the best teams in the world. Wales in the 70's were one of the most consistent international sides of their day & some might say it was easier for certain players to shine.

Personally I think Williams will be regarded as the great of the greats in time to come. When he first joined Neath I could tell that he was a freak of nature and we may never see a player like him again.

Gareth Edwards all the way, even Shane admits there were times when he wasn't good enough to play for Wales.

Turkster wrote:Gareth Edwards all the way, even Shane admits there were times when he wasn't good enough to play for Wales.

For a few months in 2002 because he was treated awful by Henry and Hansen. Other than that he's been awesome the whole way through.

in the paper today Shane admits he wasn't good enough at the time, he'd piled on too much body weight and changed his natural style because of it, it was only after he lost all that weight he got back to normal, so nothing to do with Henry and Hansen's 'awful' treatment.

The trick for me is how the neutrals see him. Almost everyone loves Gareth Edwards. Williams has his critics.

Entirely different eras.

Was Jesse Owens better than Usain Bolt?

Ridiculous OP...

Williams will be regarded in the same light as Edwards in 30 years. Edwards doesn't have many critics because he's not currently playing so we just appreciate his brillance as true fans of the sport. He had flaws.

As players they can't be compared, different players, from different generations, playing in different teams, in different positions and to be honest, completely different games.

Both brilliant players and I'm truely greatful for both of their services to the game and to our country.

westernosprey wrote:I know that players today can't always be compared to Edwards, but Williams has had a lot more caps, scored a lot more tries

Far fewer Test matches were played when Gareth Edwards was playing. Most seasons you'd have the Five Nations and that was it for international rugby. As for tries, I'd go by the tries per match ratio rather than the number of tries scored - if I was comparing wingers, which we're not.

As a Cardiff supporter since the mid-1950s, I recall the buzz about a new kid, Edwards, before he joined the club in 1966. For 13 seasons he rarely disappointed, whether for Cardiff, Wales or the Lions. And that so-called 'greatest try' was for the Barbarians, an occasional side.

On the other hand, Shane Williams has scored some magical tries and also been a talisman for Wales and the fans - more of a talisman than Gareth because Shane was sometimes the only player of true world class in a Wales shirt. That was never so in Gareth's time with the likes of JPR, Barry John, Gerald Davies, Phil Bennett, et al around.

They had different positional jobs. Being a wing, expected to finish movements, means that you'd anticipate Shane scoring a lot more tries than Gareth, which of course he has. Also, many of Shane's tries have come because he left his wing and came into midfield, looking for the ball. Yet 20 tries by a scrum-half, Gareth's international total, was exceptional too. It wasn't his main job. Remember, too, he made it possible for players around him to score some great tries, which hasn't really been Shane's claim to fame. Both of them have shown the ability to raise their game and inspire the side when things have been going against Wales.

I could go on, e.g. comparing Shane's wonderful feet against Gareth's dynamism, but it would take too long.

My chief reason for thinking that Edwards still comes out above Williams is because of game management. Shane has often sparked Welsh attacks and broken a deadlock by scoring himself, but Gareth took many more matches by the scruff of the neck - for club and country, and the Lions.

Edwards could break the hearts of opposing packs with long, rolling touchkicks, which he perfected after the so-called Australian dispensation changed the game in the late 1960s. He dropped goals and took place-kicks. But he could also launch ferocious runs, using a tremendous hand-off and physical strength. Then there was the booming pass. He dominated around the scrum. I think Shane has sometimes been more exciting to watch, but Gareth was a more influential player.

Both are known by their first names alone, of course, which to us in Wales is a sign of a truly great player!

Was Edwards part of a side that finsihed 4th in the world cup? I dont think you can compare his acheivements to the glory of Shane.

Gareth was a completely different player... Almost impossible to compare a strike runner vs a creative game reader.

A better question would have been to ask who you thought might stand more chance of scoring from within twenty five yards.

maestegmafia wrote:Gareth was a completely different player... Almost impossible to compare a strike runner vs a creative game reader.

A better question would have been to ask who you thought might stand more chance of scoring from within twenty five yards.

i agree its very difficult to compare the 2.

Gareth who?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Was Edwards part of a side that finsihed 4th in the world cup? I dont think you can compare his acheivements to the glory of Shane.

I think we can give Edwards that one as there was no world cup back when he was playing. Or maybe you'd like to stake a claim of Brad Thorn being better than Colin Meads?

Even amongst us Welsh views have been split on Williams, I thuink he will be considered one of our best but not our best by some way.

The likes of Gareth, Gerald, Merv and JPR will and always have been considered World greats not just Welsh greats so IMO Shane is still behind them.

Beds,

If we were selecting a greatest Welsh fifteen Shane would be on one wing, Gerald on the other. But Gareth would be Scrum half.

Edwards is considered by many THE best ever to play his position. A complete player (judged against the standards of his time) with a quality pass and kicking game, an ey for a break and with the strength of a contemporary back row forward.

Shane has been a very good to great player of his type for this era, but has his (relative) weaknesses both on the defensive side of his game and sometimes in contact (inevitably because of his size - you take the positives of his game and offset the negatives and he's player most sides would like to have). In terms of legacy though, he won't be considered an all time legend of world rugby 9although may well be of Welsh rugby). So not in the same league as Edwards.

Doesn't mean I'm not looking forward to see him play at Wembley against Sarries in a couple of weeks.

In fact my team would look like this:

1. Gethin jenkins
2. Bobby Windsor
3. Graham Price
4. Bob Norster
5. Luke charteris
6. Dai Morris
7 Sam Warburton
8. Mervyn Davies
9. Gareth Edwards
10. Barry John
11. Shane Williams
12. John Dawes
13. Bleddyn Williams
14. Gerald Davies
15. JPR Williams

Charteris?

Blimey, you struggle for locks in Wales if he's in your best XV of all time.

Tallest maybe?

Otherwise, not a bad side.

mm,

Agree but the OP asked would he be considered a better player than Edwards well as a winger then yes but not many would place him as our greatest ever player.

Charteris should be nowhere near an 'all time' Welsh side. Indeed, until his last half dozen matches most of you wouldn't even have named him in the current best side (seemed to be too lacking power for a modern lock).

The other questionable pick from MM is Warburton - obviously a very good player with the potential to have an outstanding career, but at the moment it's nothing more than potential. Martin Williams certainly merits being ahead of him based on what they have achieved in a Wales shirt and I'm pretty sure the 7s in the 70s teams would be in the reckoning too.

Other than those, I'd try to find a place for Scott Gibbs, although he has a couple of legends to contend with (at prop...).

Oh, and Phil Bennett ahead of Barry John (lights blue touch paper and retreats)...

dummy_half wrote: In terms of legacy though, he won't be considered an all time legend of world rugby

I think you're wrong there. With his try record in the modern proffesional game, appearances for the lions and being part of 2 grandslam winning teams plus the most successfull Welsh world cup team since 1987, what more does he have to do to be a world great?

Possibly earn an exclusive award for only the top players of the game, judged and awarded by experts?
An award worthy of world greats like McCaw, Carter, Wilkinson, Dusautior and Habana.

Even without my red-tinted-limited-edition-Shane-Williams glasses on, it's hard to see World Player of the Year 08, Shane Williams, going down as anything but an all time great.

2nd row is the one area I think we have never really produced a stream of regular world class players certainly none since Norster finished.

I guess at the time Wheel and Martin were there or there abouts

dummy_half wrote:Charteris should be nowhere near an 'all time' Welsh side. Indeed, until his last half dozen matches most of you wouldn't even have named him in the current best side (seemed to be too lacking power for a modern lock).

The other questionable pick from MM is Warburton - obviously a very good player with the potential to have an outstanding career, but at the moment it's nothing more than potential. Martin Williams certainly merits being ahead of him based on what they have achieved in a Wales shirt and I'm pretty sure the 7s in the 70s teams would be in the reckoning too.

Other than those, I'd try to find a place for Scott Gibbs, although he has a couple of legends to contend with (at prop...).

Oh, and Phil Bennett ahead of Barry John (lights blue touch paper and retreats)...

Write your own team, don't just criticise other peoples mate...!

CurlyOsp

Sorry, but I don't think rugby historians will still be raving about Shane in 15 years time in the way they do about Lomu, Campese or Kirwan. As such I stand by my assessment of Welsh Great rather than all time World Great. Perhaps it's more a question of what we are meaning by 'all time grat' - my take on this is a player that you can make a strong case for them being the best ever in their position.

Interesting that you bring up Shane's World Player award. The other winger to have achieved this in recent years was Habana, who did so on the back of a RWC victory and Tri -Nations titles (so more success than SW has achieved) and with a comparable tries per game return to Shane. I wouldn't put Habana in the all time greats list either.

dummy_half wrote:
Interesting that you bring up Shane's World Player award. The other winger to have achieved this in recent years was Habana, who did so on the back of a RWC victory and Tri -Nations titles (so more success than SW has achieved) and with a comparable tries per game return to Shane. I wouldn't put Habana in the all time greats list either.

Maybe you should also take int account the fact that Shane Williams is third on the all time international try scorers list. That puts him up their with Campese on stats as well as skills.

Dummy_Half

I agree that Habana probably wouldn't make an all time great list, but the point is that Shane has been earning the same awards as world cup winners whilst in a team that has enjoyed very little success.

Campese, Kirwan and Lomu had much less in the way of competition for the best in their position due to them being around in the era that they did. Williams, for me, is still standing out even though he's been around with such players as Habana, Bowe, Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Howlett and the like. Now I'm not saying he's definatly better than all those I've mentioned, but he's certainly not just blending in as another good winger. If you know what I mean?

Wing is such a versatile position, who you play there is often down to game plan and style prefference, but as far as elusive, exciting, entertaining wingers go, he's always top in my mind.

Nope, not even close I'm afraid. Whilst SW will be rightly remembered as a great winger, possibly in the top 7 or 8 of all time but GE was the best scrum half there was, and possibly will ever be. A couple have come close over the years but as yet none have topped him.

HOnestly whilst I think Shane is a welsh legend, Edwards was a global legend, regarded by many pundits and polls as the greatest ever rugby player. Shane doesnt fit into that category. In fact the only welshman on ability who could have matched Edwards was Dai Bish and due to his nutjob tendency he only got one cap.

Shane is a great of the game, most exciting player for wales in the last 20 years.

Maesteg

I'm not trying to denigrate Shane, who has had an exceptional career (especially as a little guy in the era of the giants) and is definintely one of the players that attracts fans to the game. I would put him up as a great of the recent times and an all time great in the context of Welsh rugby (and it is true that he has achieved this playing in a Wales side that brings a whole new meaning to inconsistent - Grand Slams and RWC semi finals as their peaks, but also often coming 4th in the 6Ns during the same era and with largely similar players selected).

CurlyOsp
I think one of the reasons Shane stands out is because of the style of player he is rather than that he is objectively 'better' than those you name (he is to my mind up there with the best of thsoe guys in terms of effectiveness though). The only comparable player in recent years was Jason Robinson - both relatively little guys* with tremendous elusiveness, speed off the mark and suprising power for their size. It makes for exciting viewing.

*I'm actually about the same height and played at about the same weight as both Shane and JR, but sadly wasn't blessed with lightening acceleration and devastaing footwork...

But then surely this debate begs the question, should an all time great be the guys who were the best, or the guys who were close but we really loved to watch?

Whereas I think Shane was the best of both worlds, those who disagree must surely be able to see that pundits will still be talking in 30 years about "that little winger who could light up a stadium with a flick of his hips" haha!

Would you consider Robinson an all time great?

Here you go lads

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/11/13/eddie-butler-s-greatest-ever-wales-xv-select-your-team-now-91466-29764571/

I would have to go for

Jenkins Windsor Price (but hard to break up the Viet Gwent)
Wheel Norster
Morris M Davies M Williams

Edwards Bennett

S Williams Bateman (pity best years lost to league) B Williams G Davies

JPR

Imagine what Gareth Edwards would be like with modern coaching and conditioning? He did carry a lot of visceral fat in his later career judging by TV coverage ( large waistline). But what a player. I have never been able to confirm this but I believe he held the Welsh 100m record for some time that has only been beaten by Colin Jackson, but that is a story from my athletics days. Can anyone enlighten me?
I believe Mervyn Davies won his first Welsh cap after only 6 or so games with London Welsh, because Wales were so short of line out options at the time. He appears on many all time Lions XVs but even Gareth Edwards in his autobiography says he thought Mervyn was too thin to play rugby.
My dad was at his last game when he had a brain heamorrhage and rates him very highly. I would be interested to hear the opinions of posters who remember him playing.

I'm not aware that Gareth Edwards has ever lied to try and ruin another player's reputation so I think I'd vote for him.

Messymesina

I don't think Gareth Edwards ever held the Welsh 100m record, but he did win the British schools 100m hurdles title whilst at Millfield, the event in which Colin Jackson reigned supreme 20+ years later. In doing so Edwards beat Alan Pascoe, who went on to be a world-class 400m hurdler, including gold at the 1974 Commonwealth Games. He also became Welsh long jump champion. So Edwards was certainly a very promising athlete before concentrating on senior rugby.

They are both great players. I think I'll look back at Williams wizardary with a smile on my face. I was young when Edwards was young, but his reputation is legendary even here.

I can't in all honesty rate Williams as being up there with Edwards. he might actually be a better player. But my take is how the player is percieved against his peers at the time. The standatd of play is much greater than 40 years. Edwartds stood out for a while, particularly for several good lions teams.

Williams problem is that he played for a struggling Welsh side and that there have been a number of great players in his position. Whilst I think he is one of the best Welsh backs of my adult lifetime, I have trouble putting him above many international players. There are the likes of Lomu, Cullen, Wilson, Rokocoko for NZ alone. Yes he has a lot of tries but most are against 2/3rd tier nations. His strike rate against top opposition is low.

This doesn't mean I don't think he's a great player and don't enjoy watching him. I think he's talented and enjoyable to watch, but I think it limits how he will be ultimately judged against the greats of the international game.

. Westernosprey, you don't do Williams any favours by making comparisons with one of, if not THE greatest player of all time.

Williams has certainly been one of the best Welsh players of his generation but he has often divided opinion and in many people's view he would not have made a world XV team in recent years. On form, he should not have made the last Lions tour! Edwards stood out amongst the greatest Lions team of all time.

It's amazing to think they were born and brought up within 5 miles of each other.

I think you typed the wrong key for the title: Shane Williams < Gareth Edwards not Shane Williams > Gareth Edwards.

Shane Williams is way smaller.

oops!

This is a bit like the old Satellite City conundrum is beetroot nicer than ham .

In other words it depends what you want Shane is the better winger and Gareth scrum-half , however strangely enough if they had to do each other jobs Shane because he's played there would be a better scrum half than Gareth as a winger. However Gareth takes a lot of shifting from the pantheon of greatness and I do remember those teasing tormenting kicks mentioned above so he gets my vote.

On the lock debate if you look further back there are some more than half decent ones like Brian Price captaining Newport to a win over the All Blacks in the 60's and also captain for Wales and first choice for the Lions.

I know it was only a silly game, but the measure of Edwards is that filling Brian Moore's mouth game. It's just a skill level no-one today gets anywhere near - and he retired over 30 years ago! Plus he had exceptional speed, strength, gymnastic ability, vision... Shane is terrific, but Gareth was a step up again.

How many did he get in that, BlueNote?

He got 24/24, luckless. That was something like double the next best.

BlueNote wrote:I know it was only a silly game, but the measure of Edwards is that filling Brian Moore's mouth game.

Erm, that was faked.

Surely you should try and compare Shane Williams to Gerald Davies....and I think Shane would just shade it

With Gareth, it's nice to see a scholarship boy from a posh English public school doing so well in this vote.

Shane has been a great player for Wales, and frequently Wales best player. The measure of a British Isles rugby player has to be their performances on Lions tours, where they are compared against the best in the 4 nations.

Shane, just like Nugget has featured in two tours but has not really been fiorst choice. If my memory serves me right he has had just two test starts over the two tours. Gerald Davies, JJ, Ieuan Evans and indeed Edwards were automatic first choice in their positions for the Lions, so in my humble opinion and despite the number of great trys Shane has scored for Wales, that places them higher on the ladder of greatness.

That's due to the selection of the coaches, not the player. When shane did get a start in the last test for the lions he scored two tries and was man of the match..