Tigers v Saints

Youngs starts, Cole and Castro rotate, Croft rested - shame for those of us who wanted to see a Croft/Wood head to head. Sints look similar to last week.

Leicester Tigers (v Northampton Saints, Welford Road, Saturday 2.15pm)
15 Geordan Murphy (c), 14 Horacio Agulla, 13 Matt Smith, 12 Billy Twelvetrees, 11 Alesana Tuilagi, 10 Toby Flood, 9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza, 2 George Chuter, 3 Dan Cole, 4 Louis Deacon, 5 George Skivington, 6 Steve Mafi, 7 Julian Salvi, 8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Rob Hawkins, 17 Boris Stankovich, 18 Martin Castrogiovanni, 19 Ed Slater, 20 Ben Woods, 21 Sam Harrison, 22 Jeremy Staunton, 23 Scott Hamilton


Northampton Saints:
15 Ben Foden,14 Chris Ashton, 13 George Pisi, 12 Tom May, 11 Jamie Elliott, 10 Ryan Lamb, 9 Lee Dickson; 1 Soane Tonga'uiha, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 3 Brian Mujati, 4 Courtney Lawes, 5 Mark Sorenson, 6 Phil Dowson, 7 Tom Wood, 8 Roger Wilson. Reps: 16 Mike Haywood, 17 Alex Waller,18 Paul Doran Jones, 19 Samu Manoa, 20 Ben Nutley, 21 Martin Roberts, 22 Stephen Myler, 23 Jon Clarke

Crofty picked up a knock last week and it would be better to rest him than risk him so close to the double header vs Clermont. Mafi is a good replacement. Going to be a big game and I'm quite interested in seeing Twelvetrees vs May in the centres.

Croft rested or too scared of facing Wood?

joking aside both those teams are looking strong and the more I look at the lineups the more I think Saints could sneak a win here. Really like the look of their midfield. Infact if that backline gets plenty of clean ball they could cause a stodgy Tigers backline all sorts of problems.

Yappysnap,

Yeah, I'm not too confident about Tigers backline as I would have been happier to have seen Manu back.

I'm not saying we've put out a weak side, but it is not as strong as it could be, no point rushing/risking players returning for this fixture when we have a HEC double header coming up next.

Saints are putting out a full strength 1st XV for this which is not too surprising considering where they are playing and that their HEC hopes are (almost) dead.

I think our pack is more than a match for Saints but Saints backline is far stronger too.

Going to be interesting this. We really need those 4 pts.

TTTTTIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

Thought Manu T was due back around this time. Or have i got that completely wrong?

All true MT. Aslong as your pack takes control and Flood kicks well you'll be fine but if you're on the back foot things could by ugly.

LT...

You've listed Dowson as playing but hasn't he been cited?

Or will the hearing be after the game?

Thought Manu T was due back around this time. Or have i got that completely wrong?.

Estimations for his return were for the Clermont double header so either next week or the week after. Smith has been defensively brilliant of late for Tigers, his 13 tackles helped shut down the Ulster attack and he kept Trinder well marshalled last week. Hopefully Billy will come into the game more now he's got some game time under his belt, his flat passes could help the attack no end.

I see Dowson is named in the team, when's his hearing?

Can't wait for this game, going to be a cracker. Real shame about Croft being rested!

Less rested more recovering. He limped off against Ulster and against Gloucester. Whatever, knock he's carrying clearly isn't going to just go away so a week off is probabley best.

Currently one of the most mouthwatering of fixtures in the Jeff. In fact that would be two in a row for juicy fixtures for both clubs after last week as they respectively defeated Glaws(a) and Sarries(h).

[ed] Team sheet deleted. Apologies for duplicate post.

Being a Tigers' fan, naturally I fancy a home win by ten...

But still no Manu -

Sam I think Dowson's hearing is on Tuesday.

That would make more sense. Good news for Saints as they'll need him with Calum Clark unavailable.

Yes, Dowson's hearing is on Tuesday 6th but not sure he really has a case to answer although in the current climate he may end up with a couple of weeks off over Christmas.

Not quite Saints strongest 15, they always play better with Downey at 12, hope May and Lamb are strong enough to stop Alesana Tuilagi as he comes in field off of set plays. Agree though, other than Downey and Callum Clark this is just about Saints strongest 22 (maybe Artemyev on the left wing but Elliot looked good last week against Saracens).

Still think Tigers will be too strong at Welford (as usual). Tigers by about 7 and a kick start to their season (unfortunately ).

B91212 obviously Dowson should be banned for consistency's sake.

If he doesn't then of course it will be one rule for certain clubs and one rule for others.

If he doesn't then of course it will be one rule for certain clubs and one rule for others

or a rule for the world cup and a rule for everything else?

Your both correct, there needs to be consistency. Only seen the incident quick once in passing (at work now so can't look) and it seemed 50/50.

By the way I am talking about consistency in all aspects.

As Sam says the rules should ideally be the same on the international stage and club level. The interpretations should be the same. Same bans for similar events.

Refs singing from the same hymn sheet etc. So many times we see refs running the game differently which dramatically changes the game and ultimately affects the result.

Warburton set the precedent. Now there will be a crack down on similar incidents. Hopefully we see the same on other offences. Ludricrous events like Umaga and Mealamu's spear tackle on BOD need to be eradicated as well as more punishment to dirty players like Schalk Burger for his disgusting gouging.

Anyway back to the topic. Both very good sides. Home advantage should prevail though.

Anybody watching? It's a belter!

If you didn't see it. You missed out! Game of the season!

Gutted but what a match. Thought Foden was MOTM to be honest.

Missed the game, who played well? Also what were the red cards for?

who did get motm scott? i missed that, thought salvi and smith were good for tigers but Foden was everywhere and often the source of most of Saints attacking play? Also that young HUtley who came on for Wilson was brilliant i thought, especially considering hes still only 18/19.

nathan...

The cards came forma huge punch up caused initialy by Tigers players reaction to Allessana being tackled by the hair by Ashton.
If we're talking about inconsitency we could talk about Manu getting a yellow for punching the poo out of Ashton last season vs a red for his brother for punching like andrew sheridan ( ie missing, getting away with it but getting Julian white carded for reacting by flooring him a couple of years ago)

Theres several players who could/should have got cards, not entirely an easy job for the officials but it seemed to be a case of well we have to send someone from both teams but we cant send off everyone.

Sounded like a cracking game!

Good to see a full-blooded match-up. I guess I'll have to try and catch the highlights.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:nathan...

The cards came forma huge punch up caused initialy by Tigers players reaction to Allessana being tackled by the hair by Ashton.
If we're talking about inconsitency we could talk about Manu getting a yellow for punching the poo out of Ashton last season vs a red for his brother for punching like andrew sheridan ( ie missing, getting away with it but getting Julian white carded for reacting by flooring him a couple of years ago)

Theres several players who could/should have got cards, not entirely an easy job for the officials but it seemed to be a case of well we have to send someone from both teams but we cant send off everyone.

Sounds like a good 'ol local derby then. Can't wait to watch it when im home.

Just got back from the match. Actually landed at Heath Row early this morning, checked in on my mum they went straight to the match in the heart of darkness. Rippin match.

When Saints went up near the end, there was no question more was to follow. That last try was a big break, maybe even a lucky break for Leicester, but good teams make those opportunities. In a strange way similar to the Leicester-Sarries final a couple of years ago. The match was done and dusted and Sarries had it in the bank. But, well, not quite. Leicester have the self-confidence to do this.

Can't wait until the rematch in heaven's own ground, the Gardens. Damn, matches like this are good for Rugby. Whether we all agree about the red cards, the referee met with the touch judges and had a discussion befoe making any decisions. I have no complaints with the process, but I didn't think Dowson dererved a red. But the officials saw a fracas and sent off one player on each side. And an influential player on each side. No real complaints. Great match.

Can you actually get cited for tackling someone by dragging their hair? Its not something I want to see in rugby.

hmmmm probably not by the letter of the law. But its not really the done thing is it?
I have long hair and if someone tried to tackle me by it, They'd deffo get a smack in the nose for their trouble.

poor from ashton, but the guy does have pretty foolish hair does that make it even?

Due to tickets selling out fast I was in the Crumbie stand for the first time in about 20 years. Tuilagi bundled through Ashton who first pulled him back by the hair, then whe he was on teh ground Ashton dragged him into touch by pulling the braids. As he completed the move he winked at the Crumbie Stand and said something I could not hear.
I thought Alessana showed great restraint by not throwing punches but just getting in Ashtons face. Agulla the other winger piled in and threw several punches. A pile of Saints piled in followed by a pile of Tigers. Saints probably threw as many punches as Tigers but spread more across the team. As it was ending Murphy threw a flurry but seemed to fail to land properly.
According to guys with ref link Barnes was told that the Leicester Winger threw punches followed by White 7. Wood and Tuilagi were sent off. Wood could feel hard done by but with the volume of punches thrown by Saints someone had to go. I suspect tuilagi was a mistake by Barnes just assuming that he was the winger throwing punches.

Tuilagi should be acquitted, Agulla, Murphy and Ashton should be cited.

Otherwise the game was played with the sort of intensity that can only help the England team.

There's no way Tuilagi should get a a ban for that (he will get cited of course for the red but hopefully the panel will see sense. Agulla might get cited as he kind of started it (except for Ashton). Murphy maybe but probably not. Wood will get a couple of weeks as the minimum. Not sure what'll happen about Ashton, if anything.

Great game though. Maybe they should reduce the number of players for all games

I do hope they cite Ashton. I've always stuck up for him with his swan dives etc but it seems he needs to be thought a lesson.

He was taught a lesson by Agulla with regards to swan dives. Great on the pitch bit of banter there.

Ashton had started the tension with a late shoulder on Geordan early on. The hair pulling was pathetic and I hope the citing commissioners end 2011 for him. Alesana was quite restrained in the response (when it happened to me I reacted differently) and in no way deserved a card (of any colour). Wood got his card for running half way across the pitch to throw several punches (similar to Sale's hooker Briggs last season).

If the officials gave red cards to every swinging player it would have been about 12 a side. Great game otherwise though Barnes was poor again but maybe that added to the entertainment. 5 points for tigers is a good result.

Not all the right people got sent off, but think that one from each side was probably right in terms of the all the punches that were thrown. Didn't put pay to all the niggle, but certainly stopped the major stuff from propagating.

Poor show from Ashton for continuing with the hair after his initial grab, and probably just that Saints almost certainly suffered more from losing Wood, handing Tigers the edge at the breakdwon.

I hope Tuilagi doesn't get a ban, but the claims that he didn't throw any punches are false. Most of them missed, in particular the ones over the top seen from the camera above on that side, but he definitely hit with a couple from underneath when he first went in, as seen from the camera lower down on the other side.

I remember when Brian O'Drisscoll pulled George Smith back by his dreads in the 2003 world cup i thought it was rather stupid but maybe an act done more in desperation whilst trying to grab a player already well ahead of him,
but Ashton dragging a player by his dreads into touch is nothing but cowardly.

Ashton needs to be taught a lesson for sure.

https://www.606v2.com/t18592-apologies-saints-fans-but

MM,

I defended Saints quite vociferously in that thread. I still do not believe they are a dirty side but frankly Ashton made me look stupid.

maestegmafia wrote:Ashton needs to be taught a lesson for sure.

https://www.606v2.com/t18592-apologies-saints-fans-but

I don't think anyone in this tread said Nh were a dirty team. I'm certainly not, just that there was no need forashton to pull someone in to touch by there hair. I can only think he was trying to provoke people.

niwatts wrote:Not all the right people got sent off, but think that one from each side was probably right in terms of the all the punches that were thrown. Didn't put pay to all the niggle, but certainly stopped the major stuff from propagating.

Poor show from Ashton for continuing with the hair after his initial grab, and probably just that Saints almost certainly suffered more from losing Wood, handing Tigers the edge at the breakdwon.

I hope Tuilagi doesn't get a ban, but the claims that he didn't throw any punches are false. Most of them missed, in particular the ones over the top seen from the camera above on that side, but he definitely hit with a couple from underneath when he first went in, as seen from the camera lower down on the other side.

Just watching it now. From all the replays he doesn't land a single connecting punch so im not too sure what replay your watching?

Ashton needs to be taught a lesson? Oh, please!

Why all the Ashton-hate? And please don't tell me its really love disguised and concern about his professional manner. As soon as he came over from League and started his silly little dive, people jumped ugly with him right from the start. He does a few stupid things, but haven't seen him tip/dump tackle anyone. And we know he can take punches which would put most people in the hospital.

The bit today with Tuilagi was also not the brightest thing in the universe. But, just give him a break. Maybe he should stop scroing trys to get out of the headlines?

doctor_grey wrote:Ashton needs to be taught a lesson? Oh, please!

Why all the Ashton-hate? And please don't tell me its really love disguised and concern about his professional manner. As soon as he came over from League and started his silly little dive, people jumped ugly with him right from the start. He does a few stupid things, but haven't seen him tip/dump tackle anyone. And we know he can take punches which would put most people in the hospital.

The bit today with Tuilagi was also not the brightest thing in the universe. But, just give him a break. Maybe he should stop scroing trys to get out of the headlines?

lol, so you expect people love him because he take some punches???

You'll find most people in here stick up for him usually, but nobody in there right mind is going to stick up for someone drags another player into touch by there hair!!!

He is an arrogant little twerp - so was Austin Healy one of my favourite Tigers players. So that is not a problem for me, but it will wind up people no end.

Today he did look as if he was trying to provoke reactions. I would hope that Mallineder puts a rocket up his arse because in the end his actions may have actually cost Saints the match.

Maybe you are right mate, but I haven't seen a lot of love for Ashton. Even right from the beginning. Regarding playing, he makes very good plays and runs some of the best lines in Rugby. Converts a bunch, too.

Did I approve of what he did today. Of course not. Stupid stuff. But my comments apply to the bigger picture where it seems he gets slammed just for showing up. I really don't think most people here back him at all. Is it an England thing? Is it a Northampton thing?

Sorry, but I don't see the arrogance. What does he say that winds you up? He does his dive, but is not the worst thing in the world. The Ausiies love that crap. I don't care for it, but would not classify that as arrogant. I truly belive you are engaging in hyperbole when you say that. Or maybe yuou just don't like him. But I don't see the arrogance.

Now Healy was an arrogant twerp, and he used that to maximum advantage. And, not for nothing, was was a really good arrogant little twerp.

doctor_grey wrote:Maybe you are right mate, but I haven't seen a lot of love for Ashton. Even right from the beginning. Regfarding playing, he makes very good plays and runs some of the best lines in Rugby. Converts a bunch, too.

Did I approve of what he did today. Of course not. Stupid stuff. But my comments apply to the bigger picture where it seems he gets slammed just for showing up. I really don't think most people here back him at all. Is it an England thing? Is it a Northampton thing?

I would expect it to me an England thing, if he cuts the crap out and does what we know he's capable off people will like him more.

Swan dives...any more less arrogant than doing a sommersault over the ball/ Theres no question theres double standards when it comes to Ashton, some people have just always wanted him to fail and disliked him. Its not just an England thing, its also partly down to his league background and the fact hes scores so many tries. Some people just dont want to believe hes actually good and look for any reason to take a pop at him.
However this was a truely nasty incident. Maybe you could have some sympathy for what happened last year but that never excuses this sort of thing. He should get cited for it, especially because of what it led to.

PSW,
I shuddered when I saw that try being scored - preceded by a fist pump as if it was important. I guess as the match had been turned into a giant retirement party it was.

DrG,
Chris Ashton is an excellent rugby player. Like many sportsmen his confidence at times seems a little brittle. To get over that they try to demonstrate an overarching and exaggerated level of confidence. This ends up bordering on arrogant. Perhaps I was wrong to say he is arrogant (and actually neither is Healy - he acted arrogant) but at times Ashton behaves in an arrogant manner. Certainly he seems to have riled up our national neighbours and upset various rugby league fans in the past.
However he could be fantastic for England over the next few years - and I hope he is.

Great game I thought from what I saw of it and I wish Cardiff had support like that. Missed the sendings off though.
Liked the "leg of Murphy". Very subtle and a thing of beauty, but will it go down in folklore as did the "hand"?