Japan earthquake and Tsunami

First topic message reminder :

As you may or not have heard, a 8.8 earthquake has hit Japan which has caused a tsunami to form. This is one of the biggest earthquakes ever recorded.

The admin and moderation team would like to extend our thoughts and prayers to those affected or who may have loved ones in the area.

We ask that at this immediate time, if all posters could remain respectful of the people affected and refrain from making light during this still sensitive period.

Thanks

Incidentally.. I apologise. It wasn't Solerina who mentioned that but Jubbahey

Please - can we leave this side of the debate just for a while. I have a lot of respect for what LJ says for reasons I won't go into at the moment. I just don't think this is the place, or especially the time to get into this discussion. Maybe when the dust settles (no sick pun intended)

If that gets dropped then I would also appreciate that the outpouring of sympathy is also stopped as I don't feel it is at all appropriate considering what these people are.

That's hugely generalizing against a nation as a whole.

Yes the treatment of the POWs by the Japanese was horrendous, my Grandfather was in the American Airforce and lost several friends v Japan, he said they though were the lucky ones compared to those that came back from the camps.

But the war was nearly 60 years ago, the people that were involved in that are for the most part dead anyway now.
Should I feel personally responsible for my countries actions towards the Irish in the famine? How about our treatment of the Chinese in the Opium Wars? The Empire?
Or more recently and the use of waterboarding by both British and American troops?

People when under the instruction of a superior often act mindlessly. It's basic pack mentality that we all still respond to.

This is the result of one man's command:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

Hero.

I also agree with that. The british have an evil history as well.

but the fact remains that these people are still considered not to have apologised... and are hardly remorseful.

And still have signs on certain places saying people of an ethnic origin not japanese are not allowed to enter.

A wonderful society that.

Sometimes it's not about that though, LJO.

Somtimes people have a greater compassion for the human race and it far outweighs the prejudices about a countries history.

Those 2000 people washed up dead on a beach may have been normal people who never shared those views you posted, or commited those attrocities, do they not deserve some sympathy?

yes they do.

but why should those people who have a compassion so far reaching that they feel pain for someone on the other side of the world allow them to compare this to a war in which the nation they are feeling for murdered and mutilated millions with no comments on that fact.

That's what made me angry. (hence my apology to Solerina as I incorrectly read her as the author of that particular comment)

I think the comment was purely made because of the way everything escalated so quickly. I'm sure there was no intent to offend people or ignore a past, although again, as i said some people tend to revert to compassion for the human race.

I must admit I raised an eyebrow when the Japanese Prime Minister made the WWII comparison. That was definitely ill advised.

The death toll could easily reach 10,000 though and God knows what long term effects may occur. That is what I have sympathy for

Funny how these people tend to feel compassion for complete strangers and yet have none for those in their own country.

And how those who work towards the security and stability of their home nation are dragged over the coals repeatedly for maintaining a safe environment in which they can live however they so choose.

Not that anyone has... just an observation I have made over the years.

LondonJonnyO wrote:Funny how these people tend to feel compassion for complete strangers and yet have none for those in their own country.

And how those who work towards the security and stability of their home nation are dragged over the coals repeatedly for maintaining a safe environment in which they can live however they so choose.

Not that anyone has... just an observation I have made over the years.

Agreed, however that's probably another discussion for another thread or section! :thumbsup:

I'm old enough to have relatives that fought the Japanese in WW2, but i have a japanese car, TV,DVD player and several other things. When I bought my first Japanese car a couple were quite upset and i understood that, but they understood my explanation.

Time moves on though and if we bear grudges from past generations then old wars and feuds will never end or die out.

Feel sympathy for all who have suffered in this tragedy and in that i also include the animals, my only gripe with the Japanese these days is over the way they treat the whales.

ospreylian wrote:I'm old enough to have relatives that fought the Japanese in WW2, but i have a japanese car, TV,DVD player and several other things. When I bought my first Japanese car a couple were quite upset and i understood that, but they understood my explanation.

Time moves on though and if we bear grudges from past generations then old wars and feuds will never end or die out.

Feel sympathy for all who have suffered in this tragedy and in that i also include the animals, my only gripe with the Japanese these days is over the way they treat the whales.

I think they are referred to the Welsh.



(trying to lighten the mood a little!)

funny that people are more concerned about an animal than rampant racism which is on a scale to the way the black people were treated in america during the segregation era don't you think.

Or is not not racism when directed towards a white man?

King Beer wrote:Not good news.

A 2nd explosion has hit the Nuclear Plant in Fukushima and a 3rd reactor has lost it's cooling system. This could be horrendous.

I've just been reading THIS.

Solerina

Not good, Sol.

I wonder if we could be looking at another Chernobyl.

thats not news.

the american military detected significant radition 160km offshore days ago and ordered their ships out of the area due to a risk to their personnel.

The japanese have been lying for decades about how safe their reactors are.

LondonJonnyO wrote:thats not news.

the american military detected significant radition 160km offshore days ago and ordered their ships out of the area due to a risk to their personnel.

The japanese have been lying for decades about how safe their reactors are.

Haven't 18 people been taken sick aboard that ship?

I did question the housing on the reactors, it looked like corrigated sheet metal?

I don't know the exact number but yes. There is radiation sickness on that ship as a result of this.

It's hardly the first time japanese reactors have been called 'safe' when they aren't.

What is the japanese safe zone? 12k?

yeah. they're great.

It's poor considering the Chernobyl one was 30k.

LJO, do you know what the comparisons would be if the plant in Fukushima went into meltdown compared to the Chernobyl incident?

chernobyl was a unique case in the the radiation plug at the top of the reactor was blown off during the initial phase which caused a much more prolonged exposure to the air. that resulted in a much wider area of impact.

This won't be as bad although it could cause significant damage to plant and animal life (including humans) if the idiots in charge don't increase the exclusion zone and introduce proper cleansing processes.

Bear in mind as well that at Chernobyl there were no proper decontamination facilities which was the real issue after the actual meltdown. There was no way to get rid of the radiation sickness once it had taken hold there.

Unless that is the same in Japan... nowhere near as bad.

Ahh, i see.

So effectively this would be more controlled. Would there still be an exclusion zone around it for 30 years? I'm guessing the radiation effect on the local area would still be horrendous?

depends on the scale. the type of fuel used. the exposure to the environment and the contamination invovled.

Chernoboyl isn't 30 years for example. It's a permanent evacuation of the area and the affected site.

LJ

Where the sudden knowledge of nuclear power plants?


One further point to remember is that chernobyl was a 1980's ferrari to the plant in japans 2010 ford focus.

it was more of a lada mac. Poorly designed, constructed and documented. Would have failed it's MOT off the production line.

And it pays to know how a reactor is built, housed, fuelled and what the by-products are. Now I'll be off to Iran.

LJO

(my grandfather was one of the unfortunate POWs imprisoned
on *Camp on Blood Island*)

A LOT of atrocities happen during war-time but you can't hold
the modern Japanese population responsible for atrocities that
happened 60 years ago !!

For heavens sake the Irish and Scots STILL hold the English
responsible for the potato famine and land clearance - but
WE WERE NOT THERE and had no say in the matter

Live and let live is my motto

I can hold casual and cultural racism against them however.

And I will hold WW2 against them when they compare this to the war. And when idiots regurgitate the same rudey poo on here.

This is a completely different generation LJO!

They suffered when the American's blew their faces off with the two Nukes.

Not everyone is perfect.

didn't we and the American's enslave black people for centuries?

Same thing IMO.

difference. We haven't compared a tsunami or a flood to the devastation suffered during the blitz for example.

that made no sense

It's an analogy.

Would it be easier if, like Kryten to the Cat, I compared an space-time portal to a magic door?

has anyone else noticed that someone has 'decided' to upgrade this from 8.9 to 9.0 making it a much bigger deal in terms of where it stands on the largest ever?

So a scale used for decades then becomes personal opinion of someone in order to aggrandise the event.

There was an interesting programme on, the other night, about the Japan earthquake.

Here's the link for it on iPlayer

It's only 30 minutes long.

Solerina

LondonJonnyO wrote:has anyone else noticed that someone has 'decided' to upgrade this from 8.9 to 9.0 making it a much bigger deal in terms of where it stands on the largest ever?

So a scale used for decades then becomes personal opinion of someone in order to aggrandise the event.

I'm curious to know why you think there is some sort of "spin" being put on this upgrade from 8.9 to 9.0

Measuring these things is a science and the science comes from derived data. Throw as many super computers at the problem as you like but it's still a fact that data comes in over a period of hours, and that data needs processing. As far as I remember, the upgrade from 8.9 to 9.0 came within the first 24 hours of the quake hittings - enough time for the dat to be collected and processed.

Your implication is that some faceless beaurocrat has deemed that it be upgraded just so that the scale of this disaster somehow rises up the league table of historical disasters. Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Bbc article that states they requested it to be upgraded

link please?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12732335

The Beeb fail to mention though that the US Geological Survey upgraded it to 9.0.

Report on Reuters:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/uk-japan-quake-usgs-magnitude-idUKTRE72D8HF20110314

#GenZ wrote:The Beeb fail to mention though that the US Geological Survey upgraded it to 9.0.

Report on Reuters:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/uk-japan-quake-usgs-magnitude-idUKTRE72D8HF20110314

Dont be silly, it was a Japanase conspiracy to get us to feel sorry for them

That would be Japanese.

And also.... I see you are taking that high road again. You really should practice what you preach.

I'll counter that with these links..

The deadly earthquake that struck Japan last week has been upgraded from an 8.9 to a 9.0-magnitude, the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) announced today (March 14).

http://www.livescience.com/13232-japan-earthquake-upgrade-magnitude-9.html

The magnitude 9.0 earthquake that struck Japan was the fifth largest earthquake ever recorded.

British Geological Society - http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/highlights/earthquakes/honshuMarch2011.html

More sloppy journalism from the BBC perhaps?

that may be the case. It does seem odd that they can propose it be upgraded.

LondonJonnyO wrote: It does seem odd that they can propose it be upgraded.

That may well go back to what I said earlier about data gathering and processing. Who else would be first to gather accurate data and to process that data than those on the doorstep of the disaster?

I suspect that if the USGS and the BGS are reporting it as 9.0 then that is pretty accurate

Remember also that the Richter scale is a logarithmic scale .... so is likely to be somewhere between 8.9 and 9.0 - they are not discrete steps on the scale.

If there are disputes over how it is reported it is likely that the real value was perhaps 8.98 or something similar, which in reporting terms would be rounded up to 9.0

in which case fair enough. It did come across as a little bit like... we would like to call it a 9 instead of an 8.9 however.

Perhaps you should offer the Japanese an apology for this LJO?

Only on the BBC as far as I can tell. I prefer to get my news from a more reliable source

perhaps. But then perhaps the BBC should also be doing so?

Would you like us to contact them?

thee bbc or japan?

BBC?