Latest Euro rankings (not ERC)

First topic message reminder :

Euro-rankings

Accurate or not?

Jennifer no problems I know from memory that you are a considered and thoughtful poster.

I do agree Treviso deserved to win, I also agree they are shaping up to be a very decent team.

Just couldn't let the word hammering go unanswered

- don't show this to my wife

No jennifer but you might be less inclined to rest players if you face for example a full strength Newcastle or Worcester away.

E.g. Wins for Newcastle and Worcester are precious so they'll try that extra bit harder.

beshocked wrote:DLO I didn't realise the Heineken Cup was a development competition.

Whilst there are participating teams who don't deserve their place on some form of merit, then HC is a development competition. The Italians, in particular, have reduced the quality of the competition in the past. Now that they are getting 22 decent games in Pro12 in which to develop their squads, instead of the 6 HC pool games as before, it's well beyond time that their default participation is in the Amlin, with a form of meritorious promotion to HC. This season, Treviso are showing that merit, Aironi are not.

beshocked wrote:At least your proposed option would give Scottish and Italian teams more of a chance at winning an European trophy.

I'm not proposing, just noting.

But you also have to consider that a player can only play so many minutes of contact sport over the course of a season and over the course of their career. So a requirement of a coach is to maintain the fitness and performance levels of their players and rotate/interchange as required. As the IRFU have centrally contract players this is more obvious for Irish sides and within the Pro12.

Relegation doesn't automatically remove the ability to rotate players. I would argue if anything that rotation should be even more important. If you are not rotating players it means their bodies don't have time to recover, get more fatigued, are potentially more prone to injury and then when they are out injured it can be for longer than a 1 match rest.

In fact, you could argue that the threat of relegation can cause coaches to try and rush back players sooner than it is correct to do so, or force a player to keep playing with an injury that should require timeout. That can further damage your side in the medium to long term as you will wear out your squad quicker.

All the 'great' teams had/have very strong squads. It is as much to do about its teams squad members from 16-30 and the quality there as it is to do with the marquee players in the first 15.

And is relegation really the only reason why Newcastle couldn't keep hold on to their star players. If the club can't afford to hold onto those players, you can point to many other factors (could their afford the wages, is the base support large enough to maintain a quality squad, is it being managed correctly, etc.)

A few myths - The Irish don't take the Pro 12 seriously.
They do so much so that of the 4 teams to win more than 1 Celtic/Magners/Pro 12 trophy are Irish.

The Pro12 rest players - yes they do so do the English and French

BOD dies not engage in the Pro12 - BOD is held together by sticky tape and to get the best out of him they only play him in limited number of matches - something similar with Ferris at Ulster.

Leinster win games with many players missing - that is because they are doing what is best for the long term development of their players. They still go out to win the game - its not their fault they are the best team in Europe

The AP is a superior league Well the worse game I have seen this year was Worcester v Bath. The standard of rugby was simply appalling

beshocked wrote:No jennifer but you might be less inclined to rest players if you face for example a full strength Newcastle or Worcester away.

E.g. Wins for Newcastle and Worcester are precious so they'll try that extra bit harder.

Try going to Galway with the wind and rain coming in off the Atlantic in January and then come back to me

I'll be there on new years day.

I take your point that Those teams will not lose out to 6N call ups whereas Aironi and Treviso will, and that they will be more committed because they are avoiding relegation.

Connacht are our equivalent, and they have beaten us there a bit. I remember Rocky Elsom turning up there a few years ago and being eh..Shocked. Contepomi had a conversion go about 6 feet over the bar and get blown back out through the posts, down the sea end.

On the plus side.... You can drive to all your away games.

geoff998rugby wrote:Jennifer no problems I know from memory that you are a considered and thoughtful poster.

I do agree Treviso deserved to win, I also agree they are shaping up to be a very decent team.

Just couldn't let the word hammering go unanswered

- don't show this to my wife

Aw Geoff. I'm blushing. Don't show it to my wife either. If she knew I was on a forum when I should be busy working...........

geoff maybe it's just that the Irish sides are so much better than the Welsh,Italian and Scottish sides? It's no surprise that the Irish sides are the only ones to win the HC.

BOD is 32. It's not a myth. He doesn't play many games in the Pro12. You admit it yourself.

Leinster win with many players missing - not a myth.

Not saying the AP is superior. That's debatable. I am saying it is more coveted,valuable to the teams taking part in it than the Pro12 is to their teams. The AP is more intense, more at stake, more first team players on display.

The Top 14 is worth more to the French sides than both the AP to English sides and Pro12 to Pro12 sides.

The Pro12 serves a different purpose - the emphasis is more on development for national sides and competing in the Heineken Cup. Overtime it will become more valuable but for now...

beshocked wrote:geoff maybe it's just that the Irish sides are so much better than the Welsh,Italian and Scottish sides? It's no surprise that the Irish sides are the only ones to win the HC.

BOD is 32. It's not a myth. He doesn't play many games in the Pro12. You admit it yourself.

Leinster win with many players missing - not a myth.

Not saying the AP is superior. That's debatable. I am saying it is more coveted,valuable to the teams taking part in it than the Pro12 is to their teams. The AP is more intense, more at stake, more first team players on display.

The Top 14 is worth more to the French sides than both the AP to English sides and Pro12 to Pro12 sides.

The Pro12 serves a different purpose - the emphasis is more on development for national sides and competing in the Heineken Cup. Overtime it will become more valuable but for now...

Hard to disagree with a whole lot in there. Wish the Irish side had been better than the Welsh in the WCQF though.

We have just got the balance right at the moment, between club and country League and HC etc. It won't last forever.

The reason the Top 14 is so important and The AP is more important than the pro12 can be boiled down into a single word. Tradition.

Clermont spent 100 years trying to win it. AP grew out of a comp with a long tradition too. Pro12 is still in it's infancy. HC is the same age as the pro sport.

Edit: Sorry re BOD. Yes he is only 32 but he is the highest mileage 32 you are likely to find, due to the uncompromising way he plays the game and the amount he plays test rugby. (2nd highest no of caps in history and he's 32)

Exactly jennifer ladyboy. Sometimes people forget that the Welsh regions are only 8 years old (I think). This is only the 2nd season for the two Italian clubs. I think the Pro 12 will improve in terms of intensity and all round ability but not yet.

Treviso's success this season is a real boost for the Pro 12 and it would be nice if they could finish 6th or 7th.

BOD may be 32 but he is a physically beat up guy who cannot play every game so Leinster pick and choose accordingly - that makes sense.

Leinster win with players missing because they have excellent cover players - Carr, McFadden, O'Malley, Conway for example is one hell of a second string three quarter line.
They also win because they are so good.

Every team tries to maximize the number of games they win and sometimes the way to do that is by resting players and all smart teams do it.
I'll give you 2 scenarios from Ulster.

For a number of years we used to put out out first XV week in week out and go to the top, or near the top, of the Magners. Trouble was we got to New Year and results took a nose dive. For the last 2 years we have started to wise up and now manage our players better, by rotating player we get more wins than playing players week in week out.

Over the holidays we have Leinster away and 4 days later play Munster at home. We are not good enough to win both.

A perfectly reasonable case could be made for sending out the reserves against Leinster and putting all our energies into the Munster game i.e. by resting players at the right time we may actually maximize the number of points we win.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Over the holidays we have Leinster away and 4 days later play Munster at home. We are not good enough to win both.

A perfectly reasonable case could be made for sending out the reserves against Leinster and putting all our energies into the Munster game i.e. by resting players at the right time we may actually maximize the number of points we win.

Ah Geoff, Give us a decent game to watch on Stephen's day willyah? Great for shaking off the Christmas cobwebs, and getting out of the house.

Put in a good word, I'll buy you a pint.