Just How Good Is Novak Djokovic?

OK.

I think we've all said it more than once on this site how good Federer or Nadal are. Even Andy Murray.

So much, we've started going in circles.

Forget about Federer and Nadal for a moment. We've had the last 6-7 years of analysing their matches, strenghts, weaknesses, and deservedly so.

They both rewrote tennis history and launched a new era, new passion and excitement for the beautiful game.

How about Novak Djokovic, then?

Where does he fit in the equation?

You all know what I think about him, but why not open up the mind to somebody non Fedal, somebody who is not a Federer's opposite like Nadal or Nadal's Uber-Nadal, how about somebody completely different... and I'm talking tennis concepts not just shot-making here.

Someone who plays tennis so hard in his soul you can't push him over the edge.

That's the tennis I'm talking. The unquenchable stuff we've been watching until the injury in September.

Good news is: it's coming back in January. And don't worry how long it will last. It will. Trust me on this one

The guy is a class tennis player. He can play the attacking stuff against Federer with much more veracity than Nadal. He can play ultra-defensive against Nadal with much more discipline than Federer. Against everyone else he plays the perfect mixture. He has a powerful BH and is able hit it cross court and up and down the line like a bullet. His serve is much more solid and holds up well even in pressure situations. Mentally he has come on leaps and bounds. For me he has the best drop shot in the business. It is near perfect, well disguised and is nearly enough against the net when it bounces.

I think 2012 will gauge just how far he can carry this brand of explosive tennis.

legendkillar wrote:The guy is a class tennis player. He can play the attacking stuff against Federer with much more veracity than Nadal. He can play ultra-defensive against Nadal with much more discipline than Federer. Against everyone else he plays the perfect mixture. He has a powerful BH and is able hit it cross court and up and down the line like a bullet. His serve is much more solid and holds up well even in pressure situations. Mentally he has come on leaps and bounds. For me he has the best drop shot in the business. It is near perfect, well disguised and is nearly enough against the net when it bounces.

I think 2012 will gauge just how far he can carry this brand of explosive tennis.

I actually look forward to him loosening his game further and moving into the court a bit, his best is yet to come

His FH has become much more looser. I think it would be nigh on impossible for him to loosen the BH as it would make it a less effective shot. I think if anything he needs to loosen his movement as you say and move into the court more. I think he was surprised at the amount of times he was able to pin Nadal to the back of the court and step in a dictate points and force his opponent to play a short length.

Yes I'd pretty much agree with LK. I've actually watched and followed him since he burst onto the scene, and I thought he would have been a leading player after that AO08 win but clearly it was a little too soon. That said I think tinkering with his racquet and employing Martin were mistakes that set him back maybe a season. He's a player thats always troubled Nadal and Federer, his BH DTL I think is the best on tour, and that drop shot is really excellent. His athletic ability is 2nd to none but I do think he's pushes himself even harder physically than Nadal at times so longevity for him is as much an issue as for Nadal. I enjoy watching him play and he shows indomitable spirit with a never say die attitude. However, sometimes I dont like his chest thumping, or the way he stands there after a big point or win looking around the stadium like Cantona used to do at Man Utd - its just a little too arrogant for my liking. That said, he does applaud players shots and is generally likeable and a funny guy - although he and Fed dont quite see eye to eye for some reason.

The question now is can he sustain his run because he's the new guy they all want to beat and he's got a mammoth points defending task ahead of him - we'll find out alot about whether he can lead from the front across more than one season, as Nadal found out its quite a different task from chasing from #2/#3 position.

I meant loosening his game, playing it more relaxed and with even more confidence (yes, that's possible, as well), utilising his forehand a bit more.

AO will be very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I reckon that's the most volatile slam due to the playing conditions (weather/scheduling-wise).

"The question now is can he sustain his run because he's the new guy they all want to beat and he's got a mammoth points defending task ahead of him - we'll find out alot about whether he can lead from the front across more than one season, as Nadal found out its quite a different task from chasing from #2/#3 position. "

That may have bothered Novak of 2008 and 09. Not the 2011 one. He waited far too long, and learnt the patience. He knows he can beat his rivals. He is truly ready.

Yes he's improved mentally no end.
I just dont think its going to be business as usual in 12 vs 11 though...he's going to be the guy to beat and everyone will be developing their tactics vs him in the off-season. Thats not to say he cant do similarish again...but I really dont think its going to be another clean sweep.

noleisthebest wrote:
Someone who plays tennis so hard in his soul you can't push him over the edge.

That's the tennis I'm talking. The unquenchable stuff we've been watching until the injury in September.

So he was injured throughout the indoor season? naah, you should know that attitude is also a part of Djoko.

Last year was amazing. He gained so much momentum from scratch and played with a "let's see how long i can keep this going" mindset. I don't think it will happen again. Dominating like that takes too much effort for his own good. He'll end up in a some sort of state of a burn out, like the last few months. So i expect him to pick his moments next year. What remains is: at the slams he'll most probably beat Nadal and Murray, has a 50/50 shot against Fed and is far too good for anybody else (ok, Delpo and Tsonga could have something to say too) so that should be good enough to pick up a few slams next year. I reckon the FO will be his main goal next year. Secure the career slam as soon as possible.. just in case

"Dominating like that takes too much effort for his own good. He'll end up in a some sort of state of a burn out, like the last few months. So i expect him to pick his moments next year. "

Very true.
He really did burn out and ground to a full halt in that match against Delpo.
Although many would criticise his indoor season effort, I think he was very professional trying to honour his duties as a number one despite not being 100%.
He could have easily just pulled a plug after USO and noone would have said anything.
I don't think he'd be caught up in any "streak" stuff next year and manage his schedule better.
I just hope he doesn't kill himself playing Davis Cup on top of London 2012....

Just How Good Is Novak Djokovic?

Nole is the best

Y I Man wrote:

Just How Good Is Novak Djokovic?

Nole is the best

I think its tough to say how good he is, because last season might be a one off... Or he might get even better. The only thing that can be assessed with any kind of accuracy right now is how good he was last season, and he was amazing.

His court coverage was just beyond belief, and he played with a self belief that might be tough to reproduce... I don't think I've ever seen anyone play with such self assurance as he did for the first 2/3 of the season.

Defensively he was astonishing, some of his retrievals were crazy, and he played with such a smart and consistent controlled aggression. I'm hoping and expecting a good season from Murray and Federer especially next year, so it will be interesting to see how Novak copes with trying to reproduce such a superb level of tennis. But hats off to him... He played some unbelievable tennis, and I really enjoyed watching him.

Yep, you're so right to highlight his court coverage - it's what sticks in my mind the most, and I imagine many other minds too.

It was impressive stuff, to say the least.

But it took a lot out of him - as it would anyone.

If he achieves anything close in 2012 I'll be even more impressed. Gonna be very interesting to see just how good he is at staying Number One, as compared to actually getting there

"I think its tough to say how good he is, because last season might be a one off..."

The main thing is Novak knows how good he is, and he is very hungry.
I am very curious to see how he balances the season out. Next one is very tricky.
We are having a very mature ATP tour at the moment, not many new players coming through and a lot of those players have improved quite a bit ( Ferrer, Tsonga, Tipsarevic, Troicki, Fish, Murray, Federer, Djokovic), or even just a bit. Those who haven't have stayed behind ( Verdasco, Roddick, Youzhny, Nadal - relatively).
All these players will be working hard inthe off-season and I bet what Novak did in 2011 has motivated a lot of them to give their best shot.
I hope all players are healthy next year, we could be in for quite a treat of a season .

lags72,

are you any good at points crunching?
If so, what's the rough number of points Nole needs to keep to remain number one. I know it depends on the others as well, but what would be the safe bet, 2 slams and 2 SF/Fs?

noleisthebest

Verdasco, Roddick, Youzhny, NADAL... Ha ha! How can any "pure" tennis fan take what you say seriously?

nitb - afraid not, I'm pretty hopeless on that in all honesty ! Guess I could get there eventually but it would take me a lot longer than some of the more worthy points crunchers I've seen here (& esp. on the old 606)

But my comment was in fact more about the long haul rather than just what may or may not happen in 2012. I'd say if Novak drops from No.1 next year it would be quite a big surprise to me and no doubt a big disappointment to you ! ......

lags72 wrote:nitb - afraid not, I'm pretty hopeless on that in all honesty ! Guess I could get there eventually but it would take me a lot longer than some of the more worthy points crunchers I've seen here (& esp. on the old 606)

But my comment was in fact more about the long haul rather than just what may or may not happen in 2012. I'd say if Novak drops from No.1 next year it would be quite a big surprise to me and no doubt a big disappointment to you ! ......

I wouldn't be disappointed. I've never really been disappointed with Novak. Logically, unless he gets seriously injured he should remain number one next year.

Federer and Murray simply cannot last the whole year with the intensity high enough to overtake Nole (look what it took Novak to overtake Nadal this year!!!), and Nadal has run out of that 2009 juice, although I still see him as Nole's main rival.

noleisthebest wrote:lags72,

are you any good at points crunching?
If so, what's the rough number of points Nole needs to keep to remain number one. I know it depends on the others as well, but what would be the safe bet, 2 slams and 2 SF/Fs?

He will be effectively starting from scratch next season on zero points if you are talking year end number one. Since the new points system was put in place I think the lowest y/e number one was Fed with 10500 odd.

Nadal and Djokovic have both had massive leads at the year end in the last two seasons.

Guest82 wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:lags72,

are you any good at points crunching?
If so, what's the rough number of points Nole needs to keep to remain number one. I know it depends on the others as well, but what would be the safe bet, 2 slams and 2 SF/Fs?

He will be effectively starting from scratch next season on zero points if you are talking year end number one. Since the new points system was put in place I think the lowest y/e number one was Fed with 10500 odd.

Nadal and Djokovic have both had massive leads at the year end in the last two seasons.

so not all bad news then, thanks

I'd agree with a lot of lydian's comments. After watching Djokovic a fair bit in 2007 it was clear he was a huge talent. He got tight a bit in the US Open 2007 but after he then won Aus 2008 I expected him to take off. He certainly has now, it just took longer than I envisaged for all of the strands to come together. I think the frustration of 2009/10 helps to fire him now.

I am not that keen on some of his posturing, but his willingness to applaud the opponent in the heat of battle does him great credit. I'm sure he's here to stay and will have a good year in 2012, definitely expect one slam and maybe 2 but think 3 will be tough.

I always knew he had the potential to win all 4 slams. Could have a career similar to Agassi. Maybe 9 slams like Seles.

He has the flexibility and strength of a ballet dancer. Seeing whether or not he can repeat his 2011 level of play is going to be one of the most fascinating aspects of tennis for me in the new year.

He's boring to watch and EuroSport thinks we've seen the best of him.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/tennis/simon-reed/article/8181/

Nice pic there too.

p.s. sorry to ruin you all the "djoko moment" you are having, but to balance it a little, or so I thought.

There is currently a 4000+ points gap between Djokovic and Nadal.

The challenge for Djokovic, points wise is,

1. Retain what he won in beginning of 2011, otherwise he starts going down.

For example, if he does not defend AO, and say is a finalist, he loses 800 points (roughly an MS).

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx#points

2. His rankings breakdown is

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=rb

So AO, IW, Miami become must-defend to stay at #1.

Nadal can gain points at AO, but he has been unlucky, so far. Federer can also gain points at AO (if he gets to the final or wins it). Murray would need to win AO to gain points.

Nadal needs to win IW/Miami to try and get his #1 back. Since he was in finals against Djokovic, he would need to win the titles, to gain points.

Will try to do a Cogen-like matrix for Slams and Masters.

He had the best mixture of defence and offence. Against Nadal, he looked invincible. Against others, he dominated without always looking invincible. That he came back from the brink of defeat against Federer has increased his stature. Those who beat him were not out and out attackers. They had some sort of variety, like Federer, Tipsarevic and Murray. It will be difficult for him to repeat his performance of 2011. If he gets French Open, gates will open up for him in the all time greats list.

From the baseline, I think he is the best currently and bordering on brilliance sometimes.

But his forecourt game is poor and his volleys look laborious; even Nadal seems to have much better feel at net than Novak.

I am not a fan - Fed and Murray's game are so much more to my liking followed by Berdy, Stan, Tsonga, Gasquet, Nalbandian etc but that's just because they play the type of tennis that I love. However, must admit that Novak has amazing defensive skills, awesome backhand, great return of serves and I predict he will win a lot more this year.

There is a massive potential point switch as early as the Australian Open. Djokovic could lose upto 2,000 points and Nadal could gain near 2,000 points. This in itself could all but close the 4,000 points between the two players.

Based on what I've seen of the two players recently a point switch looks likely. Djokovic has been complaining of fatigue both mental and physical for some time and he also has a worrying shoulder problem. Everyone talks about a new fresh year but its only three weeks away which is less than the time he took off by missing the Asian swing.

In contrast I think Nadal looked pretty good. Coming through that tricky pressured match with Del Potro was just the medicine he needed to cure some of his nervy play from earlier in the year. As far as rankings go Djokovic shouldn't discount Federer as a threat. He's looking pretty good too and at the beginning of the year has relatively few points to defend by his standards. If I was a betting person I wouldn't be putting money on Djokovic to retain the number 1.

How good is Djokovic? I would say very good. I am a fan! I like watching him play, I like his personality and I think he's good for the game. But he is not a Federer or a Nadal. He will never be but that is hardly a disgrace.

How good is Djokovic considered to be here on 606v2? That will of course have a very different answer. But then again that could be because so many have such a low opinion of one of his main rivals.

"There is a massive potential point switch as early as the Australian Open. Djokovic could lose upto 2,000 points and Nadal could gain near 2,000 points. This in itself could all but close the 4,000 points between the two players."

You are assuming Nadal wins AO and Nole loses in the first round?

Everything is possible, even the reverse scenario, you know

Don't forget what Novak had to do in order to overtake Nadal this year, so Nadal would need to at least match that. Can he do it now that his "aura" and confidence have been punctured and dented? I would be hugely impressed if he could.

laverfan wrote:There is currently a 4000+ points gap between Djokovic and Nadal.

The challenge for Djokovic, points wise is,

1. Retain what he won in beginning of 2011, otherwise he starts going down.

For example, if he does not defend AO, and say is a finalist, he loses 800 points (roughly an MS).

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx#points

2. His rankings breakdown is

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=rb

So AO, IW, Miami become must-defend to stay at #1.

Nadal can gain points at AO, but he has been unlucky, so far. Federer can also gain points at AO (if he gets to the final or wins it). Murray would need to win AO to gain points.

Nadal needs to win IW/Miami to try and get his #1 back. Since he was in finals against Djokovic, he would need to win the titles, to gain points.

Will try to do a Cogen-like matrix for Slams and Masters.

Thanks LF,

it would be really great if you could do a Cogen here... I wonder how Cogen's doing these days...hope he's enjoying his early marriage bliss , one day he's bound to come back

how good is Djokovic?

So far I'd say he's a very good to excellent player who's just had a stunning year. If he keeps this up for another two years or so he'll be an all-time great. However, given how much the first half of last year seemed to take out of him (yes he won the US but was far less convincing than he had been at the start of the year), I'd say that's far from a certainty. I think the AO will tell us a lot about where Novak stands TBH.

I like Djoko and 2011 he showed that how invincible he can be other than the fag end when he was fatigued.
Lydian, you do not like Djoko's chest thumping and standing on the court but I bet that you do not mind Nadal's fist pump and all other on court antics (I dont want to mention them here). Atleast Djoko do that once or after winning the match, Nadal keeps doing it whole match What say??

lol wow...well yes you're quite right. As I mentioned I sometimes find Nole abit arrogant for my liking (this is why I was also never a particular Fed fan), whereas I dont think Nadal is arrogant in the slightest, far from it. The on-court antics are different, Nadal doesnt stand there looking around him after a good shot kind of saying "yeah, just how good was I then!". I think Nole will temper it more as he gets older but I still dont like seeing it. I think most players pump their fists to be honest, even Sampras used to it. Regarding Nadal other oncourt antics, yes he can make people wait too long, and has loads of superstitions...but they are not driven by arrogance.

At the end of the day, liking certain players is subjective and defining who we like goes beyond their mere tennis strokes...we connect with people who are similarish to ourselves, or who we would like to have similar qualities of. I'm not a great believer in opposites attract.

Mmm. Interesting about Nadal and the way he celebrates a good point. To me it doesn't appear arrogant. He just appears to be very emotional and expressive on court. My big dislike is when a player gesticulates to the crowd to get them to cheer for them. It just makes me cringe it is so arrogant. Can anyone imagine Nadal doing that? That is the difference.

Also have to say IMO the most arrogant celebration is Tsonga's victory "dance". He leaps about pointing at himself as if to tell everyone just how good he thinks he is. I can't look out of embarrassement...

Nadal does a lot of annoying things, and for such a high-profile player way too many.
I won't mention the obvious ones, he obviously can't help himself there, but the one he could and is downright rude is having everyone wait for him at the net.

Now what's all that about?

That is one thing that lets him down like nothing else and says a lot about his "humble" character.

lydian wrote:At the end of the day, liking certain players is subjective and defining who we like goes beyond their mere tennis strokes...we connect with people who are similarish to ourselves, or who we would like to have similar qualities of. I'm not a great believer in opposites attract.

Well put lydian, I'd agree with that. There's a school of thought sometimes advanced on here that to not like Federer, or to like Nadal, is to not be a tennis fan, which is condescending tripe. Watching a tennis match, for me, will never just be about the technical merits of the two combatants.

noleisthebest wrote:Nadal does a lot of annoying things, and for such a high-profile player way too many.
I won't mention the obvious ones, he obviously can't help himself there, but the one he could and is downright rude is having everyone wait for him at the net.

Now what's all that about?

That is one thing that lets him down like nothing else and says a lot about his "humble" character.

It comes down to personal preference. I'd rather wait at the net than have someone stand arrogantly after a point once the match has begun. One man's meat is another man's poison and all that.

Quite agree Pos4th. As much as I like to watch Nole play I just dont care for the outbursts of arrogance. I also dont care too much for the swagger of his family and brothers.
Does anyone remember Federer shouting at them to shut up at Monte Carlo, or Nole's mother saying the "The King is dead" after Nole beat him at AO...or similarly his dad giving Federer the thumbs down sign after that same match. Those were really classy things to do. Is it any wonder that Federer always gets that little extra motivation when playing Djokovic?

NITB, concerning Nadal, do you remember when he won the DC the other day? After the winning shot and he fell onto his back, his team mates ran over and surrounded to celebrate with their hero but it was typical of Nadal that in the moment of victory and glory he immediately broke free of his team to go straight over to the net to commiserate with Delpo before then going over and shaking hands and embracing each member of the Argentina team. As a report said, Nadal is living proof that nice guys can come first. Also, remember the time he consoled Roger at AO'09 when it was his moment. Or the time immediately after his win at FO08 when his celebration was actually very muted given the scale of his victory, again out of his respect for Roger. Nadal is a classy guy. As Pos4th says, liking players isnt just about technique. We associate with people in sport that reflect values we also hold in ourselves, and the way Nadal handles himself in victory almost defines him more than the victories themselves, this is one of the reasons why he has so many fans.

lydian wrote:Quite agree Pos4th. As much as I like to watch Nole play I just dont care for the outbursts of arrogance. I also dont care too much for the swagger of his family and brothers.
Does anyone remember Federer shouting at them to shut up at Monte Carlo, or Nole's mother saying the "The King is dead" after Nole beat him at AO...or similarly his dad giving Federer the thumbs down sign after that same match. Those were really classy things to do. Is it any wonder that Federer always gets that little extra motivation when playing Djokovic?

NITB, concerning Nadal, do you remember when he won the DC the other day? After the winning shot and he fell onto his back, his team mates ran over and surrounded to celebrate with their hero but it was typical of Nadal that in the moment of victory and glory he immediately broke free of his team to go straight over to the net to commiserate with Delpo before then going over and shaking hands and embracing each member of the Argentina team. As a report said, Nadal is living proof that nice guys can come first. Also, remember the time he consoled Roger at AO'09 when it was his moment. Or the time immediately after his win at FO08 when his celebration was actually very muted given the scale of his victory, again out of his respect for Roger. Nadal is a classy guy. As Pos4th says, liking players isnt just about technique. We associate with people in sport that reflect values we also hold in ourselves, and the way Nadal handles himself in victory almost defines him more than the victories themselves, this is one of the reasons why he has so many fans.

Nice post Lydian - liked it
I was frustrated after Delpo failed in the DC tie but I noticed Rafa's behavior after the match and found it classy.
Coming from a huge Fed fan

"NITB, concerning Nadal, do you remember when he won the DC the other day? "

I must say I don't remember it as I didn't see the match. Was very ill with tummy bug and bed-ridden all day

Sorry to hear that NITB, hope alls well now?

Cheers Fedex

On court, Djokovic goes out of his way to acknowledge and congratulate his opponent on a good point scoring shot. I'm not sure how many other players do this.