Controversial Fantasy Fight Picks

First topic message reminder :

Saw this elsewhere and seemed like a good idea.

Basically you pick someone who you think would be able to upset a superior boxer. The idea is you can justify it based on styles/precedents and you should try and be as controversial as possible.

Good idea if we stick to roughly similar eras I think.

I'll start. I think Forrest gives Mayweather nightmares with his reach, jab and power.

Have posted on the old 606 a Tyson vs the greats article in which experts picked how Tyson would have fared against heavyweight legends. I know the Rock was one of those, if time permits will copy the full breakdown of how they saw the fight going as I know my original thread only had a precis in it.

I think Tyson gets a bit of a hard time re his stamina, I don't really think it ws that bad, of course a guy that puts everything into every punch is going to suffer for it later on, but I think people overexaggerate as to how vulnerable he was around the 6th round mark or so.

Could MArciano weather the storm? I don't think so personally, I think a guy that wasn't defensively sound and came to straight up fight Tyson, also a guy that wasn't well known for starting fast and had been decked early before, I think has a huge chance of being taken out very fast. Alternatively as most have alluded to if the fight goes past the half way mark the tables would turn and depending on the beating that Marciano had already taken I would suspect he would be able to take tyson into seriously deep waters and take him out.

Tyson also has a very good chin.

We're not on about stamina Alex, more to the point Tyson would neglect to do what he should be doing and leave himself open.. Usually pot shotting and loading up with the big big shots rather than setting up attacks. He could become flakey and lose concentration if someone wouldn't go away and was found to get frustrated if he couldn't get his man out of there.

Windy, Coxy, fully understand you bringing those points up, it's merely my own contention that the likes of Tillis going the distance with Tyson doesn't have that much bearing on how Marciano would get on against him. Rocky simply isn't going to jab, move and use every inch of the ring.

'Styles make fights' is the oldest chliché in boxing, I know. But it's also the truest.

If we're going to spend time highlighting that Tyson didn't stop Tillis, Tucker, Smith or Green, then we'd have to likewise point out that Marciano couldn't budge Applegate, Lowry or (first time out, at least) La Starza, to the point where Rocky's decision win over the latter was described as "paper thin and exceedingly odd" by the New York Times.

I'm not questioning Marciano's chin or will by any means. But the fact is, in the early rounds when he was prone to getting caught cold or taking a while to get in to his stride, he's going to be getting hit by Tyson a lot, and cleanly too. Regardless of how good your chin is, it's asking a lot to stand up to that. Marciano never took punches - at least at any meaningful level - from a 220 lb powerhouse at the top of his game. While I'd agree that Tyson never met anyone with as much whack as Marciano, he did pour cold water over some very dangerous punchers himself; Tucker, Bruno etc. His chin, I find, is vastly underrated amongst his harshest critics.

coxy0001 wrote:We're not on about stamina Alex, more to the point Tyson would neglect to do what he should be doing and leave himself open.. Usually pot shotting and loading up with the big big shots rather than setting up attacks. He could become flakey and lose concentration if someone wouldn't go away and was found to get frustrated if he couldn't get his man out of there.

Fair points, must have misinterpreted that

88Chris05 wrote:Windy, Coxy, fully understand you bringing those points up, it's merely my own contention that the likes of Tillis going the distance with Tyson doesn't have that much bearing on how Marciano would get on against him. Rocky simply isn't going to jab, move and use every inch of the ring.

'Styles make fights' is the oldest chliché in boxing, I know. But it's also the truest.

If we're going to spend time highlighting that Tyson didn't stop Tillis, Tucker, Smith or Green, then we'd have to likewise point out that Marciano couldn't budge Applegate, Lowry or (first time out, at least) La Starza, to the point where Rocky's decision win over the latter was described as "paper thin and exceedingly odd" by the New York Times.

I'm not questioning Marciano's chin or will by any means. But the fact is, in the early rounds when he was prone to getting caught cold or taking a while to get in to his stride, he's going to be getting hit by Tyson a lot, and cleanly too. Regardless of how good your chin is, it's asking a lot to stand up to that. Marciano never took punches - at least at any meaningful level - from a 220 lb powerhouse at the top of his game. While I'd agree that Tyson never met anyone with as much whack as Marciano, he did pour cold water over some very dangerous punchers himself; Tucker, Bruno etc. His chin, I find, is vastly underrated amongst his harshest critics.

As we're appreciating each others points i'm gonna call it a day on this one.

Marciano wouldn't have been intimidated, both carried massive power (and i still think Marciano would carry more than enough crack to worry Tyson) and they would've met head on. Marciano was a bit slow to get going but as a plus for him he never stayed down and we could only speculate how he'd approach the fight knowing he couldn't be so slow from the opening bell. As a side note he had more time (due to differing rules) to get into his stride, which i don't think's been touched on so far and shouldn't be neglected.

Anyway, it's time to go home for our high octane town and district darts league (an excuse to get bladdered)

88Chris05 wrote:Windy, Coxy, fully understand you bringing those points up, it's merely my own contention that the likes of Tillis going the distance with Tyson doesn't have that much bearing on how Marciano would get on against him. Rocky simply isn't going to jab, move and use every inch of the ring.

Don't get me wrong, Chris, your reasoning was precisely mine until coxy made me stop and think that Marciano, while not possessing a sweet jab or lengthy reach, had his own little detrerrent in the shape of the Suzie Q.

I still favour Tyson early, but coxy's point remains a valid reason for a possible alternative, in my opinion.

As has been said, the boxers who either beat or lasted the distance with a rampany Tyson all possessed a decent jab. The key to beating Tyson was the jab. Holy's triple jab and lateral movement whilst in the so called pocket was Tyson's undoing.

Rocky didn't have a jab to speak off and literally zero latteral movement. The only thing Tyson would be wary off would be the right hook from rocky.

To say that Tyson didn't have stamina or lacked balls is simply ridiculous. All boxers have balls the size of grapefruits. To suggest that Tyosn 'quit' when the going got tough is also silly to the extreme. Look at his losses (excuse McBride as he just quit and quit boxing altogether). He took a hell of a beating and some serious punishment before he lost.

Now the fight with Rocky will not go past 1 round with Tyson winning. Would be explosive but the explosions will be Tyson's rapid fists exploding on Rocky's jaw with regularity.

Tyson was just simply too fast and more importantly skilled for Rocky. I see this as a Ray Mancini/Arturo Frias type fight. Fun whilst it lasts.

You say that - of course - but you must appreciate that picking a 1 round KO on a man who never lost and still fought some murderous punchers - is a little bit odd?

"explosions will be Tyson's rapid fists exploding on Rocky's jaw with regularity".

Remind me - how many elite fighters did Tyson stop in a round? Fighters who were elite at the time of fighting?

"Too fast and importantly skilled". Did Rocky fight men quicker than Tyson? Yes. Did Rocky fight men more skillful than Tyson? Yes.

I'm not saying that Tyson is guaranteed to lose and Rocky to win - but to dismiss one of the ATG HWs and say they'd lose in a round is frankly ridiculous.

You'll be suggesting Herbie Hide beats Marciano next.

Now. Make a new thread discussing Jack Johnson's fundamentals. Pretty pretty please. I'm actually on tenterhooks.

oxring wrote:You say that - of course - but you must appreciate that picking a 1 round KO on a man who never lost and still fought some murderous punchers - is a little bit odd?

"explosions will be Tyson's rapid fists exploding on Rocky's jaw with regularity".

Remind me - how many elite fighters did Tyson stop in a round? Fighters who were elite at the time of fighting?

"Too fast and importantly skilled". Did Rocky fight men quicker than Tyson? Yes. Did Rocky fight men more skillful than Tyson? Yes.

I'm not saying that Tyson is guaranteed to lose and Rocky to win - but to dismiss one of the ATG HWs and say they'd lose in a round is frankly ridiculous.

You'll be suggesting Herbie Hide beats Marciano next.

Now. Make a new thread discussing Jack Johnson's fundamentals. Pretty pretty please. I'm actually on tenterhooks.

Im not sure I agree with this one. I dont think he ever faced anyone with remotely the kind of blend of speed, size and power that Tyson had.

You could argue Charles and Louis were maybe more skilled - but I doubt the versions that faced Marciano were. Charles was above his best weight and on the downward spiral and Louis was also faded. I dont think they carry the same threat as a Tyson at his best. Likewise Moore might have more skilled overall but was never really a top heavyweight the way Tyson was.

Ox

This is a style fight. The disadvantages Rocky had played right into Tyson's strengths. Rocky had a pourous defence. He came right at you. His left hand was for balance in terms that his killer punch was the right (yes he could dig with his left but his right had the more narural power and he tended to load up his left).

He came in straight lines with in a crouch. Plus he was a slow starter.

Tyson had very fast upper body movement. Not easy to catch clean. His peak a boo defence was aided by his huge arms. His punches were fast and devestating. Also he was a very accurate puncher.

Rocky's weaknesses played right into Tyson's strength.

alma wrote:

azania wrote:As has been said, the boxers who either beat or lasted the distance with a rampany Tyson all possessed a decent jab. The key to beating Tyson was the jab. Holy's triple jab and lateral movement whilst in the so called pocket was Tyson's undoing.

Rocky didn't have a jab to speak off and literally zero latteral movement. The only thing Tyson would be wary off would be the right hook from rocky.

To say that Tyson didn't have stamina or lacked balls is simply ridiculous. All boxers have balls the size of grapefruits. To suggest that Tyosn 'quit' when the going got tough is also silly to the extreme. Look at his losses (excuse McBride as he just quit and quit boxing altogether). He took a hell of a beating and some serious punishment before he lost.

Now the fight with Rocky will not go past 1 round with Tyson winning. Would be explosive but the explosions will be Tyson's rapid fists exploding on Rocky's jaw with regularity.

Tyson was just simply too fast and more importantly skilled for Rocky. I see this as a Ray Mancini/Arturo Frias type fight. Fun whilst it lasts.

Surely Tyson quit in the second Holyfield fight?

I dont think he did. Thats a matter of opinion. He lost the plot and took the fight to the streets. It wasn't as though he was getting beat up or anything. In fact he won the second round if memory serves me right and was in contention in the 3rd. The head butts did it for him. Some of them were nasty.

Tyson v Marciano now there is a fight I would love to see. These were two of the best heavyweights of all time only Ali and Lewis were better imo.

Who would win? It is hard to say Marciano never lost and had amazing power. Tysson at his best was an animal with speed, skill and power but he could be beaten by quality fighters which Marciano was.

This fight could go either way I think it is 50.50. Marciano was unbeaten so that shows his quality but ottke was unbeaten to and he was a joke who robbed people. Marciano did not rob people he knocked them out so we cant say he ever robbed people but Tyson had more skill and was bigger. Maybe Marciano would win the first fight and Tyson would win the rematch it might depend on who landed the bigger punches both guys had huge power.

Ali and Lewis would beat both though to much speed and skill.

I wonder what the French say for ' déjà vu. '

HumanWindmill wrote:I wonder what the French say for ' déjà vu. '

I know that many would like to say F You to me though in many languages. But hey, the board would be poorer if everyone agreed with one another.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:I wonder what the French say for ' déjà vu. '

I know that many would like to say F You to me though in many languages. But hey, the board would be poorer if everyone agreed with one another.

I wouldn't be one of them, mate. I reckon your views on the old timers are utterly bizarre but, as you say, it would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything.

Enjoyed this one, just as I always enjoy it when we bump heads.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:I wonder what the French say for ' déjà vu. '

I know that many would like to say F You to me though in many languages. But hey, the board would be poorer if everyone agreed with one another.

I wouldn't be one of them, mate. I reckon your views on the old timers are utterly bizarre but, as you say, it would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything.

Enjoyed this one, just as I always enjoy it when we bump heads.

And I end up with the headaches.

I was initially going to add in one or two picks myself into this until I read the Marciano against Tyson match up. I must say I think Marciano is being sold awfuly short here. Who would have thought a man of such limitations could best such technicians as Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore eh!?

I see Tyson as being he man with the headaches in this one. How to swarm a true brawler and slugger like Marciano? Why Marciano neednt even chase! Tyson will come right to him and start a tear up which is right up Macianos alley. Unlike Tyson, who would try to be methodical in hi assault, Marciano wasnt fussed where he hit you - body, shoulders, lower arms, ribs, upper arms, head - your entire upper body (and sometimes lower) was all fair game for Marciano. Tysons peek a boo gaurd would matter not a jot to Marciano who would be in his element trying to punch a hole through it. And what a hole! punches with enough force to render your arms useless after a few round of punishment. Tysons head movement might have bamboozled the headhunters or the inferior jabs, but Marciano would attack every available inch with non stop power punches and after a couple of rounds Tysons shoulders and upper arms would be beaten badly.

There are hardly any fighters in the history of the sport that I would fancy to outbrawl the Rock and I believe Tysons attempts to swarm him and get in close would be met with murderous hostility and a much higher punch volume. I would envisage Tysons earlier raids at Marciano to be repelled with heavy power shots landing anywhere and everywhere rendering Tysons peek a boo gaurd redundant and preventing Tyson getting off much of his own work and being forced into retreat. As often, when Tyson found an opponent unmoved after several rounds he would slow down and its here the Marcianos superior stamina and durablity would take control and the hunter would become the hunted with Marciano securing a stoppage in the mid to late rounds.

Colonial, superb post. I see it exactly the same way as you, only with the inability to put it into such fine words.

For me, Rocky's heart, chin, stamina and desire all trump Tyson's, and in a straight shoot out between the two there is only ever going to be one winner, the Rock. You make an excellent point about the peek-a-boo style being rendered ineffective by Marciano's own style, which is spot on as far as I see it.

Whenever I chat with my Grandad about Marciano that is one thing he always mentions - Rock's tendency to punch anywhere, whether it were arms, shoulders, face - he didn't care. As my Grandad says, defend all you like, but when your arms are battered for 3 or 4 rounds they'll soon come down and you'll find they're not working anywhere near as effectively as they should be.

Colonial

You can mention Louis et al as being legit. But I look upon them and Rocky's win as I do Tyson's win against Holmes. I maintain that a peak Larry Holmes would have beaten Tyson of any version. But the version of Larry, although still good proved no match. Look at Holme's record after the Tyson fight. Losing but good effort agfainst Holy. Beating Mercer who gave Lennos fits and should have got the decision in the eyes of many people.

On Tyson's record it shows he beat Holmes. But a shadow of what Holmes was.

In Tyson Rock would be facing someone with better punches, harder puncher, bigger, faster, more skilled, more accurate. A larger skillset, possesses a jab and far faster.

If they had met they would meet in the centre of the ring and Tyson's fast start would be Rocky's undoing. His speed would end Rocky's chances. Tyson had everything Rocky had but was much better at it.

Not selling Rocky short here. Just stating the obvious. Each of Tyson's combination was thrown with fearsome power. Rocky didnt throw combinations with anything resembling the speed of Tyson.

The problem with your last statement is that it wouldn't go several rounds to test Tyson's stamina. Rocky wouldn't get out of the first.

And I am not wumming either. When the dust settles, Rocky would be laid out before the end of the first. People are trying to make Rocky to be some impregable superman impervious to power punches. If Moore could put him down, Tyson would keep him there. Tyson was lso one of the best finishers I have seen.

Fists of Fury wrote:Colonial, superb post. I see it exactly the same way as you, only with the inability to put it into such fine words.

For me, Rocky's heart, chin, stamina and desire all trump Tyson's, and in a straight shoot out between the two there is only ever going to be one winner, the Rock. You make an excellent point about the peek-a-boo style being rendered ineffective by Marciano's own style, which is spot on as far as I see it.

Whenever I chat with my Grandad about Marciano that is one thing he always mentions - Rock's tendency to punch anywhere, whether it were arms, shoulders, face - he didn't care. As my Grandad says, defend all you like, but when your arms are battered for 3 or 4 rounds they'll soon come down and you'll find they're not working anywhere near as effectively as they should be.

Why do people question Tyson's chin? The uppercut from a 230lb Douglas would have KO'd most HW and I dare say Rocky also.

Heart chin desire are all good attributes to have. But in a punch out like thiis only one chin would be tested with regularity and it wont be Tyson's.

Much as I loved Frazier (RIP) I'd say the same thing if he fought Tyson. Those types of guys were made for Tyson. Speed and power kills in this instance.

I'm not saying he had a bad chin, but Marciano's was made of granite. Power and volume win it, for me, and that's with Marciano all day long.

azania wrote:Colonial

You can mention Louis et al as being legit. But I look upon them and Rocky's win as I do Tyson's win against Holmes. I maintain that a peak Larry Holmes would have beaten Tyson of any version. But the version of Larry, although still good proved no match. Look at Holme's record after the Tyson fight. Losing but good effort agfainst Holy. Beating Mercer who gave Lennos fits and should have got the decision in the eyes of many people.

On Tyson's record it shows he beat Holmes. But a shadow of what Holmes was.

In Tyson Rock would be facing someone with better punches, harder puncher, bigger, faster, more skilled, more accurate. A larger skillset, possesses a jab and far faster.

If they had met they would meet in the centre of the ring and Tyson's fast start would be Rocky's undoing. His speed would end Rocky's chances. Tyson had everything Rocky had but was much better at it.

Not selling Rocky short here. Just stating the obvious. Each of Tyson's combination was thrown with fearsome power. Rocky didnt throw combinations with anything resembling the speed of Tyson.

The problem with your last statement is that it wouldn't go several rounds to test Tyson's stamina. Rocky wouldn't get out of the first.

And I am not wumming either. When the dust settles, Rocky would be laid out before the end of the first. People are trying to make Rocky to be some impregable superman impervious to power punches. If Moore could put him down, Tyson would keep him there. Tyson was lso one of the best finishers I have seen.

There are times, Az, when I doubt you've seen enough for you to judge boxing at all. And then there are times when you have valid and inspired opinions.

This is one of the former, not the latter.

A man who was never stopped and you can say he's out in a round. Never stopped by some murderous HW punchers as well. Yes - Marciano never fought Tyson - ie someone with Tyson's complement of skills - but Tyson never fought Marciano either - and frankly - Tyson never beat anyone of Marciano's calibre.

These are facts. Beating a line of never-weres whilst riding Don King's hype train does not a great fighter make.

If you want to twist Rocky's career - I assume you'll do the same to Tyson. Rocky wouldn't have lost to Douglas.

I see it the same as Colonial, if anything Tysons style is perfect for a fighter like Marciano, he wont have to chase and his power would be even greater against an opponent going towards him head on. He would struggle and most probably lose to fighters like Ali, Lewis, Louis or Holmes at their bests but put him in with a swarmer and he'll have a field day.

Az my knowledge of the modern game may be lacking in areas but that's because I don't care much for a lot of todays fighters but I only discuss those who's careers I infact know.

Colonial Lion wrote:I was initially going to add in one or two picks myself into this until I read the Marciano against Tyson match up. I must say I think Marciano is being sold awfuly short here. Who would have thought a man of such limitations could best such technicians as Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore eh!?

I see Tyson as being he man with the headaches in this one. How to swarm a true brawler and slugger like Marciano? Why Marciano neednt even chase! Tyson will come right to him and start a tear up which is right up Macianos alley. Unlike Tyson, who would try to be methodical in hi assault, Marciano wasnt fussed where he hit you - body, shoulders, lower arms, ribs, upper arms, head - your entire upper body (and sometimes lower) was all fair game for Marciano. Tysons peek a boo gaurd would matter not a jot to Marciano who would be in his element trying to punch a hole through it. And what a hole! punches with enough force to render your arms useless after a few round of punishment. Tysons head movement might have bamboozled the headhunters or the inferior jabs, but Marciano would attack every available inch with non stop power punches and after a couple of rounds Tysons shoulders and upper arms would be beaten badly.

There are hardly any fighters in the history of the sport that I would fancy to outbrawl the Rock and I believe Tysons attempts to swarm him and get in close would be met with murderous hostility and a much higher punch volume. I would envisage Tysons earlier raids at Marciano to be repelled with heavy power shots landing anywhere and everywhere rendering Tysons peek a boo gaurd redundant and preventing Tyson getting off much of his own work and being forced into retreat. As often, when Tyson found an opponent unmoved after several rounds he would slow down and its here the Marcianos superior stamina and durablity would take control and the hunter would become the hunted with Marciano securing a stoppage in the mid to late rounds.

Its a good argument, but ultimately I would still have st say I favour Tyson. Partly because I think its not incorparationg enough of Marcianos weaknesses into it.

From the off, I see Tyson as just the better boxer. Forgetting records and acheivements for a moment but just looking at how they measure. Tysons bigger, hes faster, hes more accurate, hes more skillful, hes more explosive. Things like chin, power and durability are probably similar to the point of being largely negligeable. Both guys had plenty. Marciano might have advantage in stamina, but there arent really many areas I see him holding a clear advantage whereas I think Tyson holds a clear advantage in several areas.

You have outlined reasons why Marciano might win about as well as anyone so to counter I will look at reasons I think he would lose. First was the above point in terms of how they measure up. I think Tyson is better.

Secondly, theres not really any emphasis on what happens when Marciano gets hit in all this from your post. Hes a guy who is not exactly elusive up a gainst a very quick, powerful and accruate punching heavyweight. I see his lack of defence as a key issue here. You make a good point about Tysons gaurd and movement offering limited protection against Marcianos kind of hitting but I would have to say I still think it offers a better line of defence than Marciano who is far more open.

My argument for Tyson winning is pretty simplistic really. I think Marcianos too slow and too open for someone of Tysons power, speed and accuracy. Tyson holds advantages in too many areas for me. Im not sure this turns into a brawl because I envisage Tyson just have too much success landing on Rocky, who was the type of fighter to start slower and grow into a fight. Even up front Tyson has a sizeable physical advantage.

Theres going to an awful lot of power colliding in this but Tyson is just superior in too many ways. Hes the more likely to be landing, has the more sustainable defence and the superior speed and movement. Up close Marcianos cruder, slower swings will be leaving him open to Tysons hooks and uppercuts and I see him taking out Marciano early based on the kind of collision of styles.

Think that is over selling Tysons actual ability somewhat and wouldn't consider him an exceptionally skillful fighter, in actual terms Moore and Charles even when they faced Marciano had far more skill and ability than Tyson yet wont able to formulate an effective gameplan against him. They were of course smaller than Marciano but just highlights that just being more skillful than him isn't enough and personally think that in this match up where it would really matter in terms of chin and durability Marciano is head and shoulders above Tyson. Much of Tysons effectiveness was based on his opponents fear something the rock simply wouldn't have, he never seemed to cope when his opponent would stand up to him and think mental toughness as well as physical toughness would play a major part.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Think that is over selling Tysons actual ability somewhat and wouldn't consider him an exceptionally skillful fighter, in actual terms Moore and Charles even when they faced Marciano had far more skill and ability than Tyson yet wont able to formulate an effective gameplan against him. They were of course smaller than Marciano but just highlights that just being more skillful than him isn't enough and personally think that in this match up where it would really matter in terms of chin and durability Marciano is head and shoulders above Tyson. Much of Tysons effectiveness was based on his opponents fear something the rock simply wouldn't have, he never seemed to cope when his opponent would stand up to him and think mental toughness as well as physical toughness would play a major part.

Well Im drawing the comparison of Tyson to Marciano. Tyson might not be that quick or skilled next to Ali for instance but I got say I think hes way ahead of Marciano in terms of speed, skill and accuracy. I just think hes a better fighter overall. I would consider him at his best to be a clear level up as a heavyweight to the likes of the Charles or Moore that Marciano fought or even Walcott or Louis. In heavyweight terms Tyson was very quick and accurate by any heavyweights reckoning but significantly so next to Marciano I feel.

Im not sure how much conviction I put into the whole mentality that Tyson crumbled if you werent afraid of him. Maybe in some cases it true but in this I dont think Marcianos shortcomings and skills can make that count really. Tyson just holds too many advantages in too many areas to lose this for me. I dont think any of the guys Marciano fought would have held so many of these advantages over him. Speed, size, skills, accuracy, explosiveness, comparable power etc

I think because nowadays there is more of a tendancy to emphasise record in rating fighters, Marciano does better but the opinion of the day and past opinions tended to put less emphasis on record and more on perceived ability. Hence fighters like Louis have risen steadily over the decades while guys like Tunney - once rated very highly at heavy have fallen away dramatically. It is interesting to note that Marciano wasnt held to be all that great in his era and the immediate ones following. In the 1960s Fleischer only had him at 10th, Rose at 9th, The Ring had him at 7th. Considering this was before the 1970s talent and beyond its a pretty weak reflection of Marcianos percieved quality and I think it reflects the kind of feeling I have about him that his record and opposition flattered him to a large extent. Whatever about their respective records and acheivements - in which I would say Marciano ranks above Tyson, I think Tyson at his best was a superior boxer overall by a decent margin.

Azania,

To say Marciano had 0 lateral movement Azania, just proves you don't know what you're talking about. I am most certainly no expert on this era yet, but he most certainly had lateral movement, he ducked and leaned side to side, which is called lateral movement.

Fists of Fury wrote:I'm not saying he had a bad chin, but Marciano's was made of granite. Power and volume win it, for me, and that's with Marciano all day long.

Power and volume will be with Tyson imo. He threw more and faster punches and was probably the bigger hitter.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Azania,

To say Marciano had 0 lateral movement Azania, just proves you don't know what you're talking about. I am most certainly no expert on this era yet, but he most certainly had lateral movement, he ducked and leaned side to side, which is called lateral movement.

Alex

Thats bobbing and weaving. By lateral movement I mean using your feet. Rocky dragged his back foot forward as if it was broken.

Zzzzzzz "similar eras".

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Colonial

You can mention Louis et al as being legit. But I look upon them and Rocky's win as I do Tyson's win against Holmes. I maintain that a peak Larry Holmes would have beaten Tyson of any version. But the version of Larry, although still good proved no match. Look at Holme's record after the Tyson fight. Losing but good effort agfainst Holy. Beating Mercer who gave Lennos fits and should have got the decision in the eyes of many people.

On Tyson's record it shows he beat Holmes. But a shadow of what Holmes was.

In Tyson Rock would be facing someone with better punches, harder puncher, bigger, faster, more skilled, more accurate. A larger skillset, possesses a jab and far faster.

If they had met they would meet in the centre of the ring and Tyson's fast start would be Rocky's undoing. His speed would end Rocky's chances. Tyson had everything Rocky had but was much better at it.

Not selling Rocky short here. Just stating the obvious. Each of Tyson's combination was thrown with fearsome power. Rocky didnt throw combinations with anything resembling the speed of Tyson.

The problem with your last statement is that it wouldn't go several rounds to test Tyson's stamina. Rocky wouldn't get out of the first.

And I am not wumming either. When the dust settles, Rocky would be laid out before the end of the first. People are trying to make Rocky to be some impregable superman impervious to power punches. If Moore could put him down, Tyson would keep him there. Tyson was lso one of the best finishers I have seen.

There are times, Az, when I doubt you've seen enough for you to judge boxing at all. And then there are times when you have valid and inspired opinions.

This is one of the former, not the latter.

A man who was never stopped and you can say he's out in a round. Never stopped by some murderous HW punchers as well. Yes - Marciano never fought Tyson - ie someone with Tyson's complement of skills - but Tyson never fought Marciano either - and frankly - Tyson never beat anyone of Marciano's calibre.

These are facts. Beating a line of never-weres whilst riding Don King's hype train does not a great fighter make.

If you want to twist Rocky's career - I assume you'll do the same to Tyson. Rocky wouldn't have lost to Douglas.

All Rock beat was a bunch of unskilled brawlers and past it greats. Beating past it greats does not a great fighter make. What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

azania wrote: What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Was also an excellent baseball player, to the best of my knowledge Tyson wasn't.

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Tyson had heart as well...Marciano vs Tyson is a pick em fight.

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Tyson had heart as well...Marciano vs Tyson is a pick em fight.

I know, appreciate it's a pickem.

Just meant Marciano had 'massive' heart. Tyson had heart (which most boxers do to be honest and i take it as a given as otherwise they'd just quit after receiving a few wallops), but Rocky's was extra special.

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Joe Frazier had a massive heart and huge courage also. It didn't do him any good against Foreman did it?

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Tyson had heart as well...Marciano vs Tyson is a pick em fight.

You mean pick Rock off the canvas?

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Joe Frazier had a massive heart and huge courage also. It didn't do him any good against Foreman did it?

Or Foreman was stylistically all wrong for Frazier? Which is the common opinion of most people?

Historian Monte Cox's take on the fight

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

azania wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Tyson had heart as well...Marciano vs Tyson is a pick em fight.

You mean pick Rock off the canvas?

That may happen but it wont be one sided as your making out.

coxy0001 wrote:

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

What did Rocky have that Tyson didn't?

Massive heart and courage to go through hell.

Joe Frazier had a massive heart and huge courage also. It didn't do him any good against Foreman did it?

Or Foreman was stylistically all wrong for Frazier? Which is the common opinion of most people?

The point is, heart, courage and chin are irrelevant when hit hard enough.

The genius of PBF wrote:That may happen but it wont be one sided as your making out.

Bit of a low blow. The women don't have a choice in the matter?

rowley wrote:Historian Monte Cox's take on the fight

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

Thanks

rowley wrote:Historian Monte Cox's take on the fight

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rockiron.html

Well that's the way I see it also. But why did that dude decide to insult Rocky by referring to him as amateurish? Not even I would have said something like that.

Here are some comments made from fighters who fought Rocky Marciano

Joe Louis - "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone." "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

Jersey Joe Walcott - "Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could."

Ezzard Charles - "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."

Archie Moore - "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks."
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."

Roland LaStarza - "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."

Harry "Kid" Matthews - "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."

Phil Muscato - "I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches".

Bernie Reynolds - "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."

Can't see the one round blowout azania this is a tough fight for either guy...Marciano would force Tyson to respect his power...Tyson is not going to go all guns blazing for a 1st round knockout against one of the toughest and hardest hitting heavyweights off all time.

No way isit one sided.

Quote from Tyson opponents:

"He hit like a girl" Bruce Seldon.

"I didn't feel his punches at all" Frank Bruno.

"I didn't know if he was trying to hit me or tickle me" Carl Williams.

"I've taken harder punches from my sister" Michael Spinks.

I'm not denying that Rocky was a hard puncher. But compared to Tyson, that's all he had. Slow started, crude agricultural slugger who throws punches like a whirling dervish. Whilst he flails away with his head down not looking what he is hitting Tyson would assault his head with rapid and hurtful comdinations until Rocky drops. All over within 120 seconds. The only thing that makes it last to long would be Rocky's chin.

If Marciano gets close enough to throw his punches then its bad news for Tyson who had next to no inside game, the key for him is to keep it at mid range because up close and personal he would be beaten up fairly quickly. Only Foreman would have a realistic chance of taking Marciano out in 2 minutes.

Manos you can say his record flatters him but his opposition was still better than 90% of heavyweights, only Tunney, Jeffries, Ali, Frazier and Foreman can claim to hold great wins in the heavyweight division which puts everything into perspective. That his unbeaten record has yet to be replicated in poorer eras suggests Marciano is far better than you're giving him credit for.

monte cox? seems like coxy's dad has a different take on the fight to his son... hope it doesn't spoil their christmas.

Frankly comments from guys who have been ko'd by a fighter are hardly going to be likening the guy's punching power to malignaggi... it's like saying 'i have a glass chin and no heart'. Whichever, Marciano was obviously a very tough guy with amazing stamina who could punch. Tyson was bigger faster and at least as powerful.

Its heavyweight boxing with two big hitters, so no result here is impossible. Its a disservice to either fighter to make some of the statements made on this thread on both sides of the argument.

My view as stated earlier is that tyson early is a likely outcome but in no way a certainty. Rocky was put down but never out, so we can't say for sure that he wouldn't just keep getting up if downed by tyson. My perspective is that its unlikely, but that's an opinion based on watching both fight. For me, if you watch jjw drop marciano in the first round of the first fight, regardless of marciano's excellent recuperative powers, its hard not to imagine tyson in there finishing the job. No guarantees though.