Ireland to host Rugby World Cup in 2023?

Ireland to host Rugby World Cup?

I was listening to a piece on Newstalk on Friday evening about this and it seemed quite serious truth be told. Economist David McWilliams was on, former Irish coach Eddie O Sullivan, IRFU spokespeople and transport and sport Minister Leo Varadkar was on too lending his support.

All spoke about it being a distinct possibility that Ireland would submit an application to host the 2023 RWC.

Many points for and against this obviously.

The main issue seemed to be stadiums of the right quality. NZ spent 300m or something like that on developing their stadiums to make sure they were to a certain standard for the RWC. The people on air recognised early on that without the support of the GAA Ireland's bid would die as they own a lot of stadiums, but more importantly the only stadium in Ireland over 60,000 (a necessity to host a RWC final).

Assuming the GAA would support the bid (which is by no means a sure thing) Ireland's stadiums would include:

Croke Park
Lansdowne Road
Thomond Park
Ravenhill -needs to be developed
The RDS -needs to be developed
The Sportsground- needs to be developed
A GAA stadium in Castlebar can't remember the name
Another GAA stadium in the midlands can't remember the name

There are others like Musgrave Park and Donnybrook etc too.

On the stadiums front, they may be a bit small to host 1/4 and 1/2 finals. Obviously the final would be in Croke but in the 1/4's we'd need 4 big stadiums and we may be a bit short there IMO. I'm not sure what stadiums the kiwi's used for the 1/4's tbh.

Other things that were discussed on the show were, the Irish volunteering spirit. The Kiwi's really bought into the RWC as it's such a huge part of their culture and they really made it a good place for supporters to go. I (like the panel on the show Friday evening) believe we Irish could put on a serious show for the travelling supporters. Our hospitality is renowned and we take rugby seriously. I'd like to think we are a welcoming people and respectful (for the most part). I think the atmosphere at some of the games would be amazing and we could really try an infuse some of our Celtic culture into pre match routines the way the Kiwi's did with the Maori culture. We did a good job with the Special Olympics.

Our infrastructure is quite good now.
There are motorways to the main cities and trains and buses are relatively regular. One thing is for sure, no one would need to fly!

The IRFU said they'd be willing to do it and I think mentioned meeting the government at some point and said it may be an idea to look at doing it with Scotland or Wales as well as an option. The Government said they'd be interested in looking at the opportunity

David McWilliams said that even though RWC 2011 was supposed to be a financial disaster for NZ, they actually have made money off it. Only just but they did and obviously it will do great things for their tourist industry.

Some things that may be an issue:
The GAA not wanting to be involved.
The IRFU making a hames of ticket prices again
The lack 30,000+ stadiums for 1/4+1/2 finals
The IRB may want to send it to a developing nation.

What do people think?
Would you like the 2023 RWC to be in Ireland?
Will Stadiums be a huge problem?
Any other set backs you can think of?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Any other set backs you can think of?

Apart from the collapse of the Euro in Q1 of 2012 followed by mass defaults on sovereign dept and a deep and prolonged economic World depression triggered and exasperrated by said collapse, then no I can't think of any other significant set backs of the top of my head.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Any other set backs you can think of?

Apart from the collapse of the Euro in Q1 of 2012 followed by mass defaults on sovereign dept and a deep and prolonged economic World depression triggered and exasperrated by said collapse, then no I can't think of any other significant set backs of the top of my head.

Optimistic as ever Rodders

To be fair, we have enough monetary problems without funding the building and expansion of stadiums. We simply don't have the cash for that and we won't for the foreseeable future (and neither do the IRFU or GAA). It's a nice idea but it's just not feasible right now. Can you imagine the uproar if the government said 'ah we've decided to spend a bit of money on the rugby lads so we're going to have to make a few more cuts to finance it.' I'm sure that would go down well....

Cant see it happening, there isnt the money to fund a bid and with Lansdowne just reopened it would need to increase capacity, Ravenhill is being redeveloped but not up to hosting big games and there too many suggested grounds in Dublin.

More likely would be a joint Celtic bid

What would they spend the money on?

The Kiwi's spend some on infrastructure and a fair bit on stadiums. We wouldn't need to spend anything on infrastructure.

Ravenhill is due an upgrade anyway
Sportsground would be ok as it is for some of the smaller games

We'd spend money on organisation and logistics in terms of organising the events of each match, paying off the GAA, things like that but......

Think of the money it would bring in regarding

Accomodation
Trains/buses/road tolls/petrol
Pubs industry and nitelife
Food
Souveniers and other spending

Think of it as a long term investment regarding

Amount of fans who would come back for other games in Ireland
The amount of people who will go back advertising tourism in the country

If Lansdowne is good enough for a HCup final it is good enough for a RWC 1/4 or 1/2 IMO.
Thomond would be good enough for a 1/4 at the very least

Ravenhill would be grand for some of the pool games and if the redevelopment upped the size it could host a 1/4 too.

If we were doing it with Scotland and/or Wales, I'd prefer to do it with Scotland me thinks

That agreement is still in place with Wales isn't it? The one where any RWC bit by a 6Ns side has to give some games to the Millenium Stadium. If that is in place then you would have;

- Croke Park - 82,300 (GAA? no to foreign sports or get extra money from an international event highlighting their stadium)
- Lansdowne Road - 50,000
- Millenium Stadium - 72,500

Beneath that you would have;
Thomond Park - 26,500 (approx.)
Ravenhill - 19,000 (approx.)
Sportsground - 10,000 (approx.)
RDS - 20,000 (approx.)

The above venues wouldn't be (after their currently planned renovations) that far off rwc match worthiness so should have a huge cost outlay involved.

I think NZ had 13 venues. Outside of the above locations, there would be the possibilities of some other GAA locations - but they might require renovation costs? Probably would have a greater cost involved.


At first I would say no that this is a ridiculous idea but we are looking 11 years down the line. Are we going to be wallowing in our own self pity till that time.

I´d prefer to do it with Sweden personally. They tan better, red heads are invariably too fiery and with blondes you have more fun.

But seriously, if England is 2015, Japan 2019 then Ireland 2023 seems too much of a NH thing. That alone will mean Ireland won´t be successful. I imagine South Africa will or at least should get the bid. Japan is a risk so the IRB will be banking on a dependable venue. SA moreor less has the same time zone as Europe which is crucial for television viewers. They have the infrastructure already as well as the tradition.

Let Ireland recover from this economic crisis and by all means put in a joint bid for 2027.

Didn't know there was a rule on the Millenium stadium!?!?!?!

I think it is very possible we could and while it would be us taking a hit it would trigger economic growth IMO. I imagine NZ will be lapping up the benefits of the RWC2011 for a few years to come yet.

If we could hold one do people think it would be a success re: culture, infrastructure, security, atmosphere, accomodation etc???

I was thinking that too. If it didn't go to us though I'd like it to go to Argentina.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: I imagine NZ will be lapping up the benefits of the RWC2011 for a few years to come yet.

I thought NZ made a loss on the RWC? Maybe I'm making stuff up now ...Kia?

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: I imagine NZ will be lapping up the benefits of the RWC2011 for a few years to come yet.

I thought NZ made a loss on the RWC? Maybe I'm making stuff up now ...Kia?

The loss being broadcasted out load refers to a deficit left in the NZRU's books. The hotel-booze-food-tourism-retail uplift by far exceeds that I'd say.

roddersm wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote: I imagine NZ will be lapping up the benefits of the RWC2011 for a few years to come yet.

I thought NZ made a loss on the RWC? Maybe I'm making stuff up now ...Kia?

Staging the tournament (ie the cost of building stadiums, transporting teams around etc) cost the NZRU more than the NZRU earned from ticket sales (the IRB pockets the TV rights money). The NZ Govt underwrote the NZRU's losses because of the wider benefit to the NZ economy of all those travelling fans, plus tourism PR etc.

Edit, Rodders beat me to the post.

The government has absorbed the loss so they certainly haven´t made money on it.

It´s true they´re banking on this event generating tourism in the coming years. The elevated prices and clogged infrastructure in the leadup and during the tournament might make that wishful thinking though.

Pairc Uí Chaoimh will be developed by then(hopefully) 60,000 all seater has to be there, Thurles and/or the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick. The fact that Ireland has F all money might be a bit of a problem.

Thomond wrote:Pairc Uí Chaoimh will be developed by then(hopefully) 60,000 all seater has to be there, Thurles and/or the Gaelic Grounds in Limerick. The fact that Ireland has F all money might be a bit of a problem.

That's the one Leo Varadkar was talking about yeah. I hear there is going to be a big one in Castlebar too?????

David McWilliams (Irish economist) says that the Kiwi's have made money off it in tourism and on top of that they have better developed stadia and infrastructure. I don't know how reliable his information is but that's what he said.

Ireland don't have the infastructure IMO.

We dont have access to the GAA stadia for rugby so Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Semple Stadium, Gaelic Grounds etc arent relevant.

I also think that 2023 is too many NH games in a row. I know the press here would be pretty cheesed off if Australia, Argentina and South Africa got 3 in a row.

Do you mean the infrastructure to those grounds in particular Stag?

I voted Ireland could host in 2023, along with Wales / Scotland. Don't think it will happen as think it will probably be South Africa but do feel that Ireland deserve to host the tournament. Like others have said maybe 2027. As with England being the conservative option in 2015 following a potentially loss making tournament (or at least not as much revenue as the IRB would like), after 2019 in Japan then I think the IRB will opt for South Africa to again go for the conservative approach, and it also stops the NH / SH argument.

Also agree it would be a hard sell until the Irish economy is in a much stronger position. Not sure the EU would be too pleased after it injected some capital into the country only for the Irish government to financially back a longer term project like the world cup (although it would in the long run help overall economy).

I can see what people are saying about the NH/SH thing that makes sense, but surely an Irish tournament in cooperation with the Elsh or Scottish should be able to make as much money than if it went to S.Africa.

Ireland definitely isn't as risky as Japan!

So far it has alternated between SH and NH. Japan will cut that break but I don´t think there are any objections to that as it´s developing the game beyond its powerbase. I don´t think it´s feasible to keep alternating it between NH and SH as there are fewer options in the SH.

I know that Europe is a stronghold for international rugby. But there would be grave concerns if every alternate year it alternated between somewhere else and Europe. It needs to be a lot more spread out. The same reason why the Olympics never goes to the same continent twice in a row or even alternately. I live in Europe and the timezone would suit me but I think 2023 should see the competition go out of Europe. USA has been suggested but I don´t see that being warmly received by the locals. They don´t want to get behind some minority sport most of them don´t know the rules to.

Initially I voted yes we should have it but after reading the comments it would seem 2027 might be better with 2023 going to the USofA or South Africa to spread it around. That said a Would cup in Japan suits OZ and New Zealand more due to travel and time zones. The stadiums that we have and would have at that time would be suitable for this type of event. We have Croke Park, Lansdowne Road, Thomond Park, Pairc Uí Chaoimh (Work planed), Ravenhill (Work being done), The RDS (Work needed), The Sportsground (Work needed) and maybe another one or two Gaa stadiums. Wales won't vote for us either without a match there

I would love it to be here but 2027 would be more realistic imo.

Although Tokyo is only 4 hours behind NZ time, Auckland Tokyo is a 15 hour flight. I´m not so sure any travel suits Australia or NZ other than travelling to one another.

I´d much rather it go to Ireland (and Scotland if need be) than to the USA.

kiakahaaotearoa- I wasn't aware of that, Japan really is an Island in terms of rugby.

Stag, the Gaa will do anything if you give them money.

yeah it would be entirely dependent on the GAA. Casement in belfast is being redeveloped to 40000 all seater if the govt moeny ever gets spent as well.

lots of issue to consider first mind you

When people talk about stadiums,there appears to be plenty of talk about grandstands,but surely the quality of the playing surface has to be a point of consideration as well?would Ireland have a dozen grounds that have surfaces fit for playing top level International rugby? I dont know,Ive can only remeber tests at Landsdowne road and Croke Park.

aucklandlaurie wrote: When people talk about stadiums,there appears to be plenty of talk about grandstands,but surely the quality of the playing surface has to be a point of consideration as well?would Ireland have a dozen grounds that have surfaces fit for playing top level International rugby? I dont know,Ive can only remeber tests at Landsdowne road and Croke Park.

Interesting question that Aukland.
I think they would to be honest, any game I've gone to see or played myself in the ground has been good save Donnybrook Stadium which is a sandpit.
I know the Sportsground has been praised as one of the best pitch surfaces in Britain and Ireland. I think Lansdowne is good, same with thomond and Croke.

Wasn't aware of the big GAA stadium up north being built that would be a huge boost.

Unfortunatly no really big match out west unless a big stadium materialises or I've missed one. <???>

Would people be adverse to Argentina getting a RWC?

Any reservations for Argentina? No. Any excuse to go back there.

Yet my reservation would be the state of some of the pitches as well as some of the stadia.

Yeah Argentina would need a serious overhall. I imagine their infrastructure would need help in a big way too. Would the public take up the competition in the same way the Kiwi's did or the Irish would or is soccer just too strong there?

Certainly another point to consider. But certainly an opportunity to develop the game there. With their involvement in the 4N (I refuse to use the real name!) certainly that will help the game grow there.

Yeah big time. It's a huge development for rugby I think because the pumas have the potential to be a really great team.

What stadium(s) are they going to play their home games in?

I could see a major stand off if the GAA were approached.

If a number of GAA stadia were earmarked then some development would need to be done, but who would pay for it? The GAA would clearly think that if they're being asked to make improvements they hadn't planned on then the govt/IRFU should foot the bill. However those improvements would be beneficial to the GAA long after the RWC had come and gone, so shouldn't they pay for them? At least in part?

For smaller matches, like Russia v Japan etc then we won't need 50,000 seater stadia, we'll also need smaller intimate venues, but nothing as small as Musgrave, the Sportsground or Ravenhill would be acceptable. The lowest attendance in the 2007 RWC in France* was 24,124. That's Thomond Park numbers. That's the lowest figure. The smallest venue in the 2007 RWC seated 33,000 people.

(*I picked the France RWC because it's probably more comparable in terms of visitors compared to NZ)

As i've posted in another thread 2023 will need to be a money maker. South Africa will be the best choice.

Whilst the venues in SA, NZ and Australia have been confirmed my understanding is that the venues in Argentina have yet to be confirmed.

What I find incredible is that the games are in late August and September. Some of those games are going to be played in very warm temperatures!

Just a note on the RDS. The RDS is one of the if not the oldest showjumping grounds in the world. And it was one of the most beautiful ones at that. I personally shudder when I hear rugby fans talking about it needing re-development.

I'd rather see it wiped off the possible venues than to have it touched again with more 're-development'. There are more traditions than rugby at play there and as someone who originally went there as a boy becuase of my love of horses, I think the modernising diggers should stay away now. Enough 'modernising' was done there.

Lads bare in mind the tournament is in 12 years not 2 or 3. Obviously considerable amounts of money will have to be spent but over 12 years there are going to be redevelopments and refurbishments done to stadiums anyway. The country will make huge money from a tourism aspect and I reckon we'd put on a pretty good show.

Also I don't get all the jibing at the GAA. The fact is they have 7 or 8 excellent stadiums and it's their perogative to make some money out of opening them up to rugby or soccer.

Personally I believe the old neanderthal anti- foreign guard in the GAA are a dying breed and the younger members are more progressive. Given another 5 or 6 years let alone 12 and I you think you'll find the majority of GAA delegates will be open to the idea of opening their stadia to other sports. As has been mentioned they're generally tempted by a buck.

As an aside the available stadia right now are Lansdowne, Thomond, RDS,
Ravenhill and Sportsgrounds, the latter two needing redevelopment of varying degrees.

If the GAA were open to the idea then you have Croke Park, Gaelic Grounds, Parc Ui Chaoimh, Semple Stadium, Portlaoise, Wexford Park to name but a few. Some of these grounds require virtually no redevelopment as thankfully terraces are not banned in rugby.

I think hosting the tournament would be wonderful for the country and not as financially crippling as some may fear.

I agree that it may not be as financially crippling as some may fear, what got me there was that the lowest attendance in France was 33,000.

That is terrifying!

Granted that was in a different economic climate.
Anyone know the lowest in NZ and also how big their smaller stadiums were?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree that it may not be as financially crippling as some may fear, what got me there was that the lowest attendance in France was 33,000.

how many stadiums that hold >33k do we have? Thats rules out Ravenhill and even Thomond for a start?

If you limit fan height to 4' 2", I think you'd push 33,000 into both

I'd be very interested re: the difference in numbers between NZ 2011 and France 2007. I imagine the economic climate meant they could put some games in smaller stadiums.

Far too many problems.

As someone said above the lowest crowd in France was 33,000.
How many rugby grounds do we have with that capacity, even after planned redevelopments - we'll there's Landowne and err thats it.

Thomond is ok, at a push, but even after redevelopment RDS, Ravenhill, Sportsground and Musgrave don't cut it.

So we would be very very dependant on the GAA.
Now the World Cup takes place in September and early October. There is the odd sporting event that takes place at Croke Park and the other major GAA grounds at that time of year - they will not be moved for anything.

As someone else has mentioned some of the GAA grounds would need developing/improving - who pays. GAA will play hardball I'm sure.

As for Casement - 40,000 rugby fans on the Falls Road - sorry I don't see it.
The palce is a total 'mare to get to even on a normal Saturday, even without a sporting event (I really do wonder if the GAA will spend as much of the Stormont grant on Casement as some imagine).

2023 will go to the SH anyway

Besides that any infrastructure up grades will have no financial backing. No one has the money to pay for it.

The only way Ireland will host a World Cup is as part of a Celtic bid with Wales and Scotland.

On our own is a pie in the sky unattainable dream.

geoff998rugby wrote:Far too many problems.

As someone said above the lowest crowd in France was 33,000.
How many rugby grounds do we have with that capacity, even after planned redevelopments - we'll there's Landowne and err thats it.

Thomond is ok, at a push, but even after redevelopment RDS, Ravenhill, Sportsground and Musgrave don't cut it.

So we would be very very dependant on the GAA.
Now the World Cup takes place in September and early October. There is the odd sporting event that takes place at Croke Park and the other major GAA grounds at that time of year - they will not be moved for anything.

As someone else has mentioned some of the GAA grounds would need developing/improving - who pays. GAA will play hardball I'm sure.

As for Casement - 40,000 rugby fans on the Falls Road - sorry I don't see it.
The palce is a total 'mare to get to even on a normal Saturday, even without a sporting event (I really do wonder if the GAA will spend as much of the Stormont grant on Casement as some imagine).

2023 will go to the SH anyway

Besides that any infrastructure up grades will have no financial backing. No one has the money to pay for it.

The only way Ireland will host a World Cup is as part of a Celtic bid with Wales and Scotland.

On our own is a pie in the sky unattainable dream.

Well there you go then Pete...we'll just have to make sure we win it in 2015 then

If there was a Celtic bid would the final be played in the Millenium Stadium, Murrayfield, Lansdowne Road or Croke?

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/highest_attendance.html?id=2050;type=tournament

Have a look at this link. More than half the games in the 2011 RWC had attendances of less than 33,000 with the lowest being just over 10,000,

Indeed NZ Japan only had slightly more than 30,000. I think the point about France is moot as it's vastly bigger than Ireland and as mentioned that tournament took place in a markedly different financial climate.

Paying the GAA for use of their stadia would be considerably cheaper than carrying out wholesale redevelopment to existing IRFU venues.

As a compromise I think sharing the tournament with Scotland would be a great idea

The Millennium Stadium of course..... I hear that's where God likes to watch His rugby. But then again, it was a Welshman who told me.... so.... use caution with that news.

I think the demand for the 'minor' games would be greater in Ireland than in NZ due to our closeness to the other 6Nations geographicaly.

Also the time of year and how it mirrors the climax to the GAA season is a bit of a showstopper on its own.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I´d prefer to do it with Sweden personally. They tan better, red heads are invariably too fiery and with blondes you have more fun.

But seriously, if England is 2015, Japan 2019 then Ireland 2023 seems too much of a NH thing. That alone will mean Ireland won´t be successful. I imagine South Africa will or at least should get the bid. Japan is a risk so the IRB will be banking on a dependable venue. SA moreor less has the same time zone as Europe which is crucial for television viewers. They have the infrastructure already as well as the tradition.

Let Ireland recover from this economic crisis and by all means put in a joint bid for 2027.

Honestly... I get so angry at the NH/SH bullsh1t... there is no such thing.

The bid will go to whoever makes the best argument & presentation to the IRB.

Would love to see Ireland get the bid. And on their own too... not being held over a barrel by the WRU because mark my words the only way the WRU will let you use the Millenium is to host Wales home fixtures.

Vaden wrote:

Honestly... I get so angry at the NH/SH bullsh1t... there is no such thing.

I think there is you know....

1987 - SH
1991 - NH
1995 - SH
1999 - NH
2003 - SH
2007 - NH
2011 - SH

I think I can see a trend in there somewhere - what do you think

PropositionJoe wrote:http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/highest_attendance.html?id=2050;type=tournament

Have a look at this link. More than half the games in the 2011 RWC had attendances of less than 33,000 with the lowest being just over 10,000,

Indeed NZ Japan only had slightly more than 30,000. I think the point about France is moot as it's vastly bigger than Ireland and as mentioned that tournament took place in a markedly different financial climate.

Paying the GAA for use of their stadia would be considerably cheaper than carrying out wholesale redevelopment to existing IRFU venues.

As a compromise I think sharing the tournament with Scotland would be a great idea

We obviously don't know what the economic climate is gonna be like in 2023 but I'd guess somewhere close to middle maybe between 2007 and 2011.
The GAA thing is an issue unless the RWC were to move later or earlier or the All Ireland's GAA big matches. Would the GAA say no to the money (considerably more than they would make off the GAA)???

I'd much rather share the RWC with Scotland than Wales

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'd much rather share the RWC with Scotland than Wales

+ 1 ....