Ireland to host Rugby World Cup in 2023?

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Ireland to host Rugby World Cup?

I was listening to a piece on Newstalk on Friday evening about this and it seemed quite serious truth be told. Economist David McWilliams was on, former Irish coach Eddie O Sullivan, IRFU spokespeople and transport and sport Minister Leo Varadkar was on too lending his support.

All spoke about it being a distinct possibility that Ireland would submit an application to host the 2023 RWC.

Many points for and against this obviously.

The main issue seemed to be stadiums of the right quality. NZ spent 300m or something like that on developing their stadiums to make sure they were to a certain standard for the RWC. The people on air recognised early on that without the support of the GAA Ireland's bid would die as they own a lot of stadiums, but more importantly the only stadium in Ireland over 60,000 (a necessity to host a RWC final).

Assuming the GAA would support the bid (which is by no means a sure thing) Ireland's stadiums would include:

Croke Park
Lansdowne Road
Thomond Park
Ravenhill -needs to be developed
The RDS -needs to be developed
The Sportsground- needs to be developed
A GAA stadium in Castlebar can't remember the name
Another GAA stadium in the midlands can't remember the name

There are others like Musgrave Park and Donnybrook etc too.

On the stadiums front, they may be a bit small to host 1/4 and 1/2 finals. Obviously the final would be in Croke but in the 1/4's we'd need 4 big stadiums and we may be a bit short there IMO. I'm not sure what stadiums the kiwi's used for the 1/4's tbh.

Other things that were discussed on the show were, the Irish volunteering spirit. The Kiwi's really bought into the RWC as it's such a huge part of their culture and they really made it a good place for supporters to go. I (like the panel on the show Friday evening) believe we Irish could put on a serious show for the travelling supporters. Our hospitality is renowned and we take rugby seriously. I'd like to think we are a welcoming people and respectful (for the most part). I think the atmosphere at some of the games would be amazing and we could really try an infuse some of our Celtic culture into pre match routines the way the Kiwi's did with the Maori culture. We did a good job with the Special Olympics.

Our infrastructure is quite good now.
There are motorways to the main cities and trains and buses are relatively regular. One thing is for sure, no one would need to fly!

The IRFU said they'd be willing to do it and I think mentioned meeting the government at some point and said it may be an idea to look at doing it with Scotland or Wales as well as an option. The Government said they'd be interested in looking at the opportunity

David McWilliams said that even though RWC 2011 was supposed to be a financial disaster for NZ, they actually have made money off it. Only just but they did and obviously it will do great things for their tourist industry.

Some things that may be an issue:
The GAA not wanting to be involved.
The IRFU making a hames of ticket prices again
The lack 30,000+ stadiums for 1/4+1/2 finals
The IRB may want to send it to a developing nation.

What do people think?
Would you like the 2023 RWC to be in Ireland?
Will Stadiums be a huge problem?
Any other set backs you can think of?

Most of the ones being used are in a decent shape but will need work done, aside from PUC I wouldn't say major work is needed

Build it and they will come. If it happens it will be a huge success, there's not a shadow of doubt in my mind, and the benefits would far outweigh any percieved negatives or problems.

People forget that Japan and the UK are not in a good way economically either. Economically we are all feiced anyways, China notwithstanding, and the RWC has to happen regardless.

Just do it. It will be awesome .

I dont really want to write an essay on the private sector or demand overseas and how ireland offcourse can aid that..

My point was only about public spending in a different way with what you have and stimulating rather than wasting!

That is one thing Ireland(your govenment) has control on.

I'm actually in NI so its Thomonds goverment not mine......

There is wastage of course, and it is being adressed by the cuts, but that is a small issue relative to the banking and dept problems. The counties finances were in a very good place prior to bailing out the banks, unlike some of the other countries with high sovereign dept.

As I have said before I dont really like cuts on public spending at this time!- I want it spent , but in a way that stimulates and creates jobs!

This was allways my first point and its an argument that Political parties argue every day!

Rodders, it's only the whole island when you want it to be

Take that dept away with you sir! Katie Taylor is always welcome up here though .

Thomond wrote:Geoff, which GAA grounds are you thinking of? Are they up North or in general, barring Pairc Ui Chaoimh, which is a shoite hole, most are in decent shape.

I was primarily thinking up North and as you may imagine I know Casement best.
Now I do realise that in theory it will be redeveloped with money from the central authorities but the GAA, like soccer here, has not got its act together in order to make things happen.

Thanksfully the professional manner in which Ulster rugby has conducted itself is in marked contrast to the shambles in soccer and GAA sports in the north.

Soccer is a bit of a shambles down south too (except for Cork City thanks to the fans like myself ) although Shamrock and Sligo Rovers are alright, problem with soccer is the barstoolers supporting the premier league mainly but that's a whole different chestnut.

As are the Campbell boys and other GB athletes done south, Rodders

The IRFU is set to unveil their all Ireland bid tomorrow:

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ireland-rugby-world-cup-2023-1815269-Dec2014/

Good God, youv'e dragged this one up from the archives haven't you ?

Anyway, as before, I cannot decide, I would love for Ireland to get the WC and on their own, and I would go, they could use the Aviva and some of the gealic sports grounds like Croke Park, but I am torn between a developing nation like Japan or Italy having it first. But if Ireland DO get it then they should not buy other nations votes by allowing them to play games in their own country, Ireland should host the whole thing.

Well its better than starting a new one no?

Hopefully they wont have to buy votes.

The buying nations votes is a bit of a mis-nomer. When Wales were going ahead with the Millenium Stadium they were getting into a huge mountain of debt. It was agreed at the time between all the classic 5 Nations that to help WRU out and not have them go bankrupt any RWC hosted by any of the 5 Nations would include games played in the Millenium to supplement the paydown of the loans. The WRU would auto-vote for whoever in the 5Ns was hosting the games.

The real issue was when this was all agreed into the RWC was still in it's relatively early days (there had been what 3-4 events max). And nobody in the room figured to put an expiry date on the agreement. As it is now very valuable to the WRU it isn't going to be cancelled or ended peacefully any day soon.


All I could think of is if two of the 5Ns applied for the RWC then the WRU could only vote for one of them. Therefore if this did occur (say France v Ireland for hosting) you could argue that the WRU didn't vote for one of them and as a result all parties are no longer bound by the agreement. But of a stretch though.

But when you see phantom grand prix's announced on official schedules in order to get around rules in recent weeks anything is possible.

I'd love Ireland to host the event, we could put on a fine show and 2023 is a good bit away to start saving.

ha delighted on the mileage I'm getting on this post! I remember being in the gaeltach with Leo Varadkar and he was 100% onboard for doing this and was going to be setting in the groundwork when he got back, never thought it would make it this far!

I'm hoping we'd get it, would do so much for the island and would open people's eyes to Ireland as a broader tourist spot. Most people just go to Dublin but there is so much to see.

COME ON IRELAND

thebandwagonsociety wrote:The buying nations votes is a bit of a mis-nomer.  When Wales were going ahead with the Millenium Stadium they were getting into a huge mountain of debt.  It was agreed at the time between all the classic 5 Nations that to help WRU out and not have them go bankrupt any RWC hosted by any of the 5 Nations would include games played in the Millenium to supplement the paydown of the loans.  The WRU would auto-vote for whoever in the 5Ns was hosting the games.

The real issue was when this was all agreed into the RWC was still in it's relatively early days (there had been what 3-4 events max).  And nobody in the room figured to put an expiry date on the agreement.  As it is now very valuable to the WRU it isn't going to be cancelled or ended peacefully any day soon.


All I could think of is if two of the 5Ns applied for the RWC then the WRU could only vote for one of them.  Therefore if this did occur (say France v Ireland for hosting) you could argue that the WRU didn't vote for one of them and as a result all parties are no longer bound by the agreement.  But of a stretch though.

But when you see phantom grand prix's announced on official schedules in order to get around rules in recent weeks anything is possible.

I'd love Ireland to host the event, we could put on a fine show and 2023 is a good bit away to start saving.

Wales didn't have enough RWC-standard stadia to host by ourselves (nor do we now, as far as I know) therefore the tournament was shared across 5N's Europe with the MS getting the final. As part of the agreement, England, France, Ireland and Scotland agreed that should they host a tournament in the future (I don't know if there was any time-limit, might be worth finding out) Wales would be allowed to host a few games. I wasn't aware the WRU debt came into it but you could well be right.

As far as I'm aware, France (and England from next year) will have fulfilled their obligation. Meaning that the WRU no longer has any right to request matches from either union. I had the impression the agreement covered one RWC per nation only.

LordDowlais wrote:Good God, youv'e dragged this one up from the archives haven't you ?

Anyway, as before, I cannot decide, I would love for Ireland to get the WC and on their own, and I would go, they could use the Aviva and some of the gealic sports grounds like Croke Park, but I am torn between a developing nation like Japan or Italy having it first. But if Ireland DO get it then they should not buy other nations votes by allowing them to play games in their own country, Ireland should host the whole thing.

Japan have it in 2019,if we don't get it I'd love to see Italy get it alright.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Good God, youv'e dragged this one up from the archives haven't you ?

Anyway, as before, I cannot decide, I would love for Ireland to get the WC and on their own, and I would go, they could use the Aviva and some of the gealic sports grounds like Croke Park, but I am torn between a developing nation like Japan or Italy having it first. But if Ireland DO get it then they should not buy other nations votes by allowing them to play games in their own country, Ireland should host the whole thing.

Japan have it in 2019,if we don't get it I'd love to see Italy get it alright.

Speaking completely bluntly and taking my own selfish preferences out of this. The best place that the RWC could go to would be either the USA or Argentina. Both countries have more than enough stadia of huge sizes (would need clearance from Football and American Football), both countries have unique-ish cultures, both are developing rugby nations (Argentina's domestic league is fledgling to the say the least).

IMHO They should put it where the game needs the boost the most, not in ireland or France or South Africa again , where its already well developed . Better target exculusively new developing countries.

Japan 2019
Argentina
USA
Russia
Georgia
Fiji / Tonga / Samoa
Scotland  

alive555 wrote:IMHO They should put it where the game needs the boost the most, not in ireland or France or South Africa again , where its already well developed . Better target exculusively new developing countries.

Japan 2019  
Argentina
USA
Russia
Georgia
Fiji / Tonga / Samoa
Scotland  

I like the thought to be honest but....

Russia: getting in to Russia could be quite tricky if you're from certain nationalities in a few years, where would the bases be outside of Moscow and Petersburg, could they get stadiums in their more Asiatic regions?

Georgia: Infrastructure? Stadiums?

Fiji/Tonga/Samoa: Are they set up for tourism on that scale of numbers? Think of flights between Islands? Think of the different hotel categories, pitches, stadia, remoteness of the countries themselves.

If South Africa could co-host with the other Southern African countries including Madagascar it would be great for African rugby

Zimbabwe National Sport stadium can hold 60 000
Madagascar Stadium can hold 24 000 seated and an additional 16 000 standing
Namibia can't really host more than 10 000
Botswana can host 22 000

Biltong wrote:Zimbabwe National Sport stadium can hold 60 000
Madagascar Stadium can hold 24 000 seated and an additional 16 000 standing
Namibia can't really host more than 10 000
Botswana can host 22 000

Bilt, rugby is massive in Madagascar isn't it ? I'm sure I heard not so long ago they had a massive turn out for one of their national games.

They did mate, 40 000 rocked up.

I do think it should go to a developing Nation but if not then I like idea of Ireland holding it.

Seeing that it is going to a developing nation (from A RUGBY PERSPECTIVE) in 2019, it will go to an established nation in 2023.

Biltong wrote:Seeing that it is going to a developing nation (from A RUGBY PERSPECTIVE)  in 2019, it will go to an established nation in 2023.

Like Ireland?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Biltong wrote:Seeing that it is going to a developing nation (from A RUGBY PERSPECTIVE)  in 2019, it will go to an established nation in 2023.

Like Ireland?

Reliable sources close to World Rugby has confirmed Africa, South Africa, but I am supposed to keep it on the down low

I like the African idea Bilts had, spread it across quite a few stadia and get a lot of the smaller countries envolved. Only down side is travelling, I imagine it is a long way from say Cape Town, to Namibia, to Botswana, to Zimbabwe, to Madascar then back to SA.

Biltong wrote:They did mate, 40 000 rocked up.

Do you know anything about Madagascan rugby Bilt ? Seeing as they from your end of the world, do they have any rivalries like say Mozambique ? If 40,000 would go to watch the national side play there must be at least some sort of league there, surely ?

Sure you are dealing with huge distances between SA and Madagascar. There is a similar distance between Ireland and Romania so could just as easily, if not easier to host in Ireland and have games there.

Well Durban is about 1800kms from Madagascar. So you could have one pool there.

Harare is less than 1000 kms from Nelspruit, so you could have a pool there.

Gabarone is less than 500 kms from Gauteng, so that can be a pool

Then you could have the fourth pool in the Southern side of SA.

Just researched it now, they boast over 22,540 registered players and more than 410 rugby clubs, the IRB really need to look into developing things in this country, they have just as many players and clubs as a tier one nation, they are also getting big support for their clubs as well, with over 8000 people at each game, and 30,000 for finals games, it's just because they are the poorest country in the world that they cannot get a full pro league, they need help, and they need it now. How long will it be before we see Madagascan players being poached by South Africa or Namibia or any other country that could be pro ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:They did mate, 40 000 rocked up.

Do you know anything about Madagascan rugby Bilt ? Seeing as they from your end of the world, do they have any rivalries like say Mozambique ? If 40,000 would go to watch the national side play there must be at least some sort of league there, surely ?

It is a very popular sport with over 20 000 registered players and over 400 clubs.

They have a structured league within each region who qualify for a top 8 tournament. Unfortunately it is tough to follow as news is scarce.

LordDowlais wrote:Just researched it now, they boast over 22,540 registered players and more than 410 rugby clubs, the IRB really need to look into developing things in this country, they have just as many players and clubs as a tier one nation, they are also getting big support for their clubs as well, with over 8000 people at each game, and 30,000 for finals games, it's just because they are the poorest country in the world that they cannot get a full pro league, they need help, and they need it now. How long will it be before we see Madagascan players being poached by South Africa or Namibia or any other country that could be pro ?

I doubt that will ever happen, we have strong ties to Namibia and Zimbabwe due to the fact that they take part in our Craven week schools annual tournaments and many immigrate here.

Madagascar doesn't

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Just researched it now, they boast over 22,540 registered players and more than 410 rugby clubs, the IRB really need to look into developing things in this country, they have just as many players and clubs as a tier one nation, they are also getting big support for their clubs as well, with over 8000 people at each game, and 30,000 for finals games, it's just because they are the poorest country in the world that they cannot get a full pro league, they need help, and they need it now. How long will it be before we see Madagascan players being poached by South Africa or Namibia or any other country that could be pro ?

I doubt that will ever happen, we have strong ties to Namibia and Zimbabwe due to the fact that they take part in our Craven week schools annual tournaments and many immigrate here.

Madagascar doesn't

The worry for though Bil, is if you are a star in the making in Madagascar and a top tier nation eyes you up, you would not blame that player for going, with that much rugby being played, they are there for the picking, and with the predominant language in Madagascar being ? Yes, you've got it FRENCH, the big spenders will not be far away getting some good young raw Madagascan talent representing France national team before long, thus setting that country back even further, FFS a country with that much interest should be competing with the top tier nations surely ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Just researched it now, they boast over 22,540 registered players and more than 410 rugby clubs, the IRB really need to look into developing things in this country, they have just as many players and clubs as a tier one nation, they are also getting big support for their clubs as well, with over 8000 people at each game, and 30,000 for finals games, it's just because they are the poorest country in the world that they cannot get a full pro league, they need help, and they need it now. How long will it be before we see Madagascan players being poached by South Africa or Namibia or any other country that could be pro ?

I doubt that will ever happen, we have strong ties to Namibia and Zimbabwe due to the fact that they take part in our Craven week schools annual tournaments and many immigrate here.

Madagascar doesn't

The worry for though Bil, is if you are a star in the making in Madagascar and a top tier nation eyes you up, you would not blame that player for going, with that much rugby being played, they are there for the picking, and with the predominant language in Madagascar being ? Yes, you've got it FRENCH, the big spenders will not be far away getting some good young raw Madagascan talent representing France national team before long, thus setting that country back even further, FFS a country with that much interest should be competing with the top tier nations surely ?

I agree, but the avenues to get into SA from there does not exist, even when you consider Namibian and Zimbabwean players, Namibia has 5 players in their squad playing rugby in SA, but from memory we have not poached any f their players in the pro era.

The Zimbabwean squad has 7 players currently playing rugby in SA, the only Zim player we have poached was Beast, and he came to SA straight after school to play pro rugby, we never shop for players outside SA

Well the Irish bid has been announced anyway and it is the only oficial bid so far. Over to you SA, Argentina and Italy.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/ireland-2023-rugby-world-cup-1814972-Dec2014/

Is that why everyone is all so interested now in 'Growing' the sport in areas of the world where it hasn't yet grown?  Is it truly a spirit of generosity that motivates some of us or is it a spirit of wanting more regions to poach from...on the cheap?

Good players from Madagascar would still come cheaper than good players from more traditional hunting gounds.  And Very Good players from Madagascar would come much cheaper than highly paid heros from traditional hunting grounds.

So often times I see the 'desire' to spread the game not as some kind of noble desire to give something to the fringe Nations but actually to start a conveyor belt of stealing their best talent away from them.  Taking not giving.

SecretFly wrote:Is that why everyone is all so interested now in 'Growing' the sport in areas of the world where it hasn't yet grown?  Is it truly a spirit of generosity that motivates some of us or is it a spirit of wanting more regions to poach from...on the cheap?

Good players from Madagascar would still come cheaper than good players from more traditional hunting gounds.  And Very Good players from Madagascar would come much cheaper than highly paid heros from traditional hunting grounds.

So often times I see the 'desire' to spread the game not as some kind of noble desire to give something to the fringe Nations but actually to start a conveyor belt of stealing their best talent away from them.  Taking not giving.

Although I agree with your premise of taking more than giving (Let's face it, 200 years ago they milked SA for their minerals, and now for their players) it costs much more to develop a country like Madagascar than they will save on contracting their players

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Is that why everyone is all so interested now in 'Growing' the sport in areas of the world where it hasn't yet grown?  Is it truly a spirit of generosity that motivates some of us or is it a spirit of wanting more regions to poach from...on the cheap?

Good players from Madagascar would still come cheaper than good players from more traditional hunting gounds.  And Very Good players from Madagascar would come much cheaper than highly paid heros from traditional hunting grounds.

So often times I see the 'desire' to spread the game not as some kind of noble desire to give something to the fringe Nations but actually to start a conveyor belt of stealing their best talent away from them.  Taking not giving.

Although I agree with your premise of taking more than giving (Let's face it, 200 years ago they milked SA for their minerals, and now for their players) it costs much more to develop a country like Madagascar than they will save on contracting their players

Depends on who is spending the money and where, Bilt. I'd assume in a real world, the IRB would be spending or sanctioning the 'development' - and Private Clubs around the world (Europe ) would be doing most of the buying of the players it might produce.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Is that why everyone is all so interested now in 'Growing' the sport in areas of the world where it hasn't yet grown?  Is it truly a spirit of generosity that motivates some of us or is it a spirit of wanting more regions to poach from...on the cheap?

Good players from Madagascar would still come cheaper than good players from more traditional hunting gounds.  And Very Good players from Madagascar would come much cheaper than highly paid heros from traditional hunting grounds.

So often times I see the 'desire' to spread the game not as some kind of noble desire to give something to the fringe Nations but actually to start a conveyor belt of stealing their best talent away from them.  Taking not giving.

Although I agree with your premise of taking more than giving (Let's face it, 200 years ago they milked SA for their minerals, and now for their players) it costs much more to develop a country like Madagascar than they will save on contracting their players

Depends on who is spending the money and where, Bilt.  I'd assume in a real world, the IRB would be spending or sanctioning the 'development' - and Private Clubs around the world (Europe ) would be doing most of the buying of the players it might produce.

True, therefor those spending the money to develop rugby can't be accused of doing it for the reason you suggested

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Is that why everyone is all so interested now in 'Growing' the sport in areas of the world where it hasn't yet grown?  Is it truly a spirit of generosity that motivates some of us or is it a spirit of wanting more regions to poach from...on the cheap?

Good players from Madagascar would still come cheaper than good players from more traditional hunting gounds.  And Very Good players from Madagascar would come much cheaper than highly paid heros from traditional hunting grounds.

So often times I see the 'desire' to spread the game not as some kind of noble desire to give something to the fringe Nations but actually to start a conveyor belt of stealing their best talent away from them.  Taking not giving.

Although I agree with your premise of taking more than giving (Let's face it, 200 years ago they milked SA for their minerals, and now for their players) it costs much more to develop a country like Madagascar than they will save on contracting their players

Depends on who is spending the money and where, Bilt.  I'd assume in a real world, the IRB would be spending or sanctioning the 'development' - and Private Clubs around the world (Europe ) would be doing most of the buying of the players it might produce.

True, therefor those spending the money to develop rugby can't be accused of doing it for the reason you suggested

I'm not accusing the IRB of being the exploiters (or potential exploiters).  

I'm saying rugby in the Traditional areas can have double standards operating when they talk of 'Developing' rugby in less known areas.  

It's no secret that the IRB wouldn't be the only people talking or thinking about the idea of 'Developing' rugby in new areas.   It's not always with a genuine philanthropic heart that the topic comes up.  Indeed, I'll go further, it's NEVER with an exclusive philanthropic heart that the topic comes up as the IRB is a business too - increasing the world profile increases earning potential.  So the Heart of the ideal is always being whispered to by the Economic possibilities of such a venture.  

Initial Expenditure for subsequent profit.

The 'African' idea looks interesting.

Italy or Argentina would be my choice though I'm sure USA could put on a good tournament.

Not really keen on it being in Ireland so soon after England. It'll feel a bit like more of the same. Maybe a 'Celtic' bid for Wales/Scotland/Ireland to share it a few tournaments later would be better?

Any idea how much the tournament fees are going to be? It was £80M for England, about £100M for Japan

Cyril wrote:The 'African' idea looks interesting.

Italy or Argentina would be my choice though I'm sure USA could put on a good tournament.

Not really keen on it being in Ireland so soon after England. It'll feel a bit like more of the same. Maybe a 'Celtic' bid for Wales/Scotland/Ireland to share it a few tournaments later would be better?

Why host it with Wales and Scotland we we can do it by ourselves? One of the main criticisms of past world cups is that there hasnt been enough of a sense of occasion or party atmosphere where WCs were spread out over large countries or across multiple countries.

Having it in Ireland will make it by far the most concentrated to one space WC there has ever been. Ireland is 4 times smaller than NZ. Therefore whoever is lucky enough to experience it will be in no doubt wherever they are staying in Ireland that there is a major event going on.

There would also be a very interesting sub plot of unity between the north and south as it would be a joint effort. The sort of feel good story that embodies the spirit of rugby union and could IMO make the bid even more attractive.

No we'll try it on our own, Cyril. What can they say? 'No. You don't have Wales and the Millennium Stadium on your ticket so you're only a joke candidate'. New Zealand almost lost their chance to host when they left the Millennium off their ramble too

If they are looking for a similar playing surface to Cardiff maybe include a ploughed field in Donegal?

HammerofThunor wrote:Any idea how much the tournament fees are going to be? It was £80M for England, about £100M for Japan

They have estimated a cost yet. The campaign or bid itself will cost €1.5 million.

According to one source:

If Ireland’s cross-border bid proves successful, it is believed a fee in excess of €130million would have to be paid to Rugby World Cup, the organisation which oversees the competition, as a guarantee.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/philip-browne-irfu-world-cup-1817242-Dec2014/

How much of that 1.5 million euros comes from the NI Executive who can't find 40 grand a year to keep Culture Night Belfast going etc?

Notch wrote:How much of that 1.5 million euros comes from the NI Executive who can't find 40 grand a year to keep Culture Night Belfast going etc?

Not sure. Im guessing it comes from the IRFU?