Leinster fans: attendance debate

Leinster fans, there have been a few interesting debates recently about Welsh regional attendances. A number of the reasons suggested focus around success. The Irish fans point to success quadrupling attendances in some cases. I remember going to Leinster v Newport RFC in 2001 before regional rugby and I think the crowd was around 6-700.

My question to Leinster fans on this board is this: were you one of the original 6,000 or are you one of the new followers? There must be an awful lot of new followers so there must be some on here. Did success persuade you to go? If so, why didn't you go in the past? What did you do instead?

I'm not sure that if the Dragons, for example, won the Amlin cup that we'd be suddenly overwhelmed with fans. Same for the Blues and the HC, etc. I wondered whether the Irish increase has been partly due to success but partly as it has coincided with a shift in attitude towards rugby on the country?

Griff,

personally thing that the Irish provinces have married on pitch success with clever marketing. They do not have any wendyball teams that draw support (ie 50000-60000) like in Glasgow and many Aviva teams, every week - Bath are probably the exception to that in England. Still yesterday's 46000 in Dublin was awesome - the atmosphere must be fantastic.

Glasgow attendencies improving, with better marketing (and better on pitch performance !). We are still way down on all other pro-rugby teams so a lot of work required.

Not sure what is going on Wales as their crowds are dropping - is it anything to do with the success of the Cardiff and Swansea wendyball teams ?

it does seem as though there has been an explosion of popularity in irish regional rugby despite recent economic troubles.

Sucess is clearly a factor but also the there is no premier football league in ireland, Dublin, for example must be the only city its size in europe with no top level football club. Whilst GAA remains popular it doesnt offer the european level of competition that the HC does.

just a thought.

Really.... in 2001 a crowd of only 6-700? Are you sure about that?

I am a Munster fan but when i lived in Dub (late 80's early 90's) there were always very good crowds when the rugby was on.

Munster yes, but Leinster no. That's why I'm asking Leinster fans specifically if they were one of the originals or the new breed.

If you go on Leinster's website it shows results and attendances for each match each season (drop down box to choose the year). 7,000 was the norm around that time.

Actually, if you look at the Donnybrook fixtures in 2003/04 season the attendances were around 2,000, 3,000, 4000 for a lot of the games. Was there work being done to the ground? The figures jump up a bit in the next few years when games start being played in the RDS, and big games at Lansdowne attract 40 odd thousand, but even games against Scarlets and Ospreys in 05/06 at Lansdowne only attracted 6 and 7 thousand respectively. It's the 2007/08 season when attendances really jump up with RDS games getting 18,000 plus.

I was there even before 01. My first Leinster match was against NZ around 1990. Attendances we relatively low as we played in donnybrook then which had one of the lowest capacitys in Europe however, despite the garbage you might hear/believe Leinster have always had big Attendances compared to other clubs in their league. Though in 01 ulster I believe were the best supported team in Ireland.

Back in 2000 there were many reasons for poor attendances, mostly to do with kick off times, transport and the population of dublin being 99% Welsh.


Some, or maybe all, of that might not be true and may be a convenient excuse.

Griff wrote:Actually, if you look at the Donnybrook fixtures in 2003/04 season the attendances were around 2,000, 3,000, 4000 for a lot of the games. Was there work being done to the ground? The figures jump up a bit in the next few years when games start being played in the RDS, and big games at Lansdowne attract 40 odd thousand, but even games against Scarlets and Ospreys in 05/06 at Lansdowne only attracted 6 and 7 thousand respectively. It's the 2007/08 season when attendances really jump up with RDS games getting 18,000 plus.

Leinsters Attendances have always been close to the highest in the league. Don't know if you have ever been to donnybrook but its tiny. As you say there is a new breed of fan which is good. Leinsters popularity is trickling into areas such as tallaght which is great.

Great? It's an evolutionary quantum leap

I am just amazed as whenever i went and watched Leinster play there was always a very decent crowd. Even though i am a Munsterman i have always had an affinity with Leinster as thats where i went to school (St Mary's).

Donnybrook may have been small but the atmosphere was always top class.

i think a huge part of the reason is when provences were starting out in europe munster firstly seemed to have a brilliant marketing plan and the fans bought into the munster psyche of the players where they just loved playing for the local provence. also leinster have carried on this marketing process and everyone loves the european dimension. take out europe and there would not be as huge demand imo.
while i understand the point about premier league football etc i dont buy into it completely. england has an 15 times the population of ireland sop it can more than cope with rugby also. ireland has the gaelic element but in fairness most gaelic fans are football and rugby fans to. I think irtish people always love to be patriotic and the european cup is part of this. hence why munster and leinster and ulster fans will shout for each other i europe(usually:)).

wales is tricky one with the new regions but to say they have been slow to support it is understatement and swansea only made premier league this yr and doubt it effects rugby to much as after all we are constantly told how the welsh are rugby mad??? think the welsh have got to change there attitude and not just concentrate on fillin millenium few times a yr.

NB also tom kiernan has huge role in this when he negotiated the central contracts cos irish team flourished since then enormousely.. will wales follow suit finally seen that all there players are fleeing to france? irish players are looked after sweetly with tax breaks and are rested on demand of the irfu also and most probably extendng there careers

Not always Leinsterbaby. Just look at their site. It gives the home and away attendances for each game each year:

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/matchcentre/results_and_fixtures_leinster.php?includeref=5855&season=2003-2004

There were times when the Welsh teams we're consistently getting more than Leinster.

My whole point in this is that for us in Wales the attendances have increased slightly in some areas but decreased in others, while Leinster's have exploded. I'm trying to find if there's a model we could follow to similarly increase our attendances.

eirebilly wrote:I am just amazed as whenever i went and watched Leinster play there was always a very decent crowd. Even though i am a Munsterman i have always had an affinity with Leinster as thats where i went to school (St Mary's).

Donnybrook may have been small but the atmosphere was always top class.

My school plays St Marys every year. In year 7 we go over to Dublin, then St Marys come over to play us. I went in 1993. Luckily my host had tickets for Ireland vs Wales, Eric Elwood missed a kick to win the game, good times

Ten years is ten years...and that plays a part too................

Namely, if you're 20 today, ten years ago you'll only have been 10. Good maths from me yes, but also from my guesswork a lot of the people on here are early/mid 20s? So their progession from dependent children whose parents might not have been interested in rugby to independent souls who are natural and frequent attenders for Leinster games would be...well, a natural progression for them, not something they have decided to simply go to because of success.

Another point to keep in mind is that the sport itself only turned professional about fifteen years ago, so allow five or so years for the provinces to get into their stride as professional outfits and it's not so hard to plot the progression either in success or in attendances. Much as many would like to see the links sustained between the amateur days and professionalism, they are two different beasts and the refinement and nature of the modern game HAS brought a new audience. But that's true not just in Leinster.

I suppose in short, what I'm saying is that rugby in general, as a game that has captured the imagination of the Irish people, is still only in its infancy in this country. That's the bloody exciting bit, that there are still people to drag in, to attract to the game; athletes from other codes that might not come from traditional rugby communities or families who have still to be caught by the bug. And that's not even to mention the now large, as yet untapped, immigrant source. There will be increasingly young players coming through from other heritages, with physical characteristics that will add to the fun.

But yes, too, I'll accept that a large chunk of the 46 thousand plus crowd last night were there because of what Leinster at present brings: excitement, panache and the closest thing to SH rugby we have in the North. And really, what's wrong with that either? Let them entertain, and let people who would not be diehard rugby fans go for a night out to enjoy them.

BridgendBoyo wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am just amazed as whenever i went and watched Leinster play there was always a very decent crowd. Even though i am a Munsterman i have always had an affinity with Leinster as thats where i went to school (St Mary's).

Donnybrook may have been small but the atmosphere was always top class.

My school plays St Marys every year. In year 7 we go over to Dublin, then St Marys come over to play us. I went in 1993. Luckily my host had tickets for Ireland vs Wales, Eric Elwood missed a kick to win the game, good times

Did you play in kennelworth square? That was one of my favourite away grounds. Always enjoyed playing there against marys.

Played there at Kenilworth Square Leinster..... You would'nt be Blackrock boy would you now?

cant remember the name of the ground... i do remember missing a easyish conversion and we ended up drawing the game

At the beginging of th eCeltic League Ulster were the best supported team each year untill about 2007.

You may look at the stats for Leinster and Munster and say that the explosion in attendances was down to winning the H-cup, but the jump in figures for each is before they won the H-cup.

Its down to the fact Leinster played at Donneybrook and were selling it out for about 2 years (capacity approc 6000) which makes the attendance look low, but there were fans who couldn't get tickets, they they moved to the RDS and it looked like an explosion but it was just that they now had capacity to satisfy demand, same as Munsters move to Thomond.

Also I think that the regions struggle while the Irish flourish is down to a number of things.
Welsh rugby fans tend to be more Diehard, as in they follow Rugby or football but there is little cross over between the two. Irish fans follow a number of sports and you see the same faces watching Dublin in Croke park, and Leinster in the RDS. While the Welsh Diehard will attend every game, a Irish fan will maybe only see 1/3 of the home games, but it's easier to get three of these fans, going now and again than one Diehard, plus a Fourth one would increase attendance over one diehard fan.

the other main thing is Rugby may only be the Fourth sport in Ireland, but it is a winter sport, meaning like me you can get rugby in winter and GAA in summer without having to choose between the two very often, meaning fans of both can attend both. If Rugby moved to a summer sport and games were on at the same times as the All-Ireland, rugby attandences would take a big decrease.

Yeah Leinster and Munster were selling out smaller grounds before they moved to bigger ones. That's in contrast to the Welsh regions. Some of them moved into large stadiums before there was any need for such a move. The resulting half empty stadiums make for a poor atmosphere. Which probably turns people off.

I do think the Heineken Cup has been the biggest factor in drawing in new fans for the two provinces though. At the moment it looks like Leinster are once again, gonna be in the HEC knockouts with a home quarter final and a home Pro12 semi final, while playing great attacking rugby. So no wonder hoards of fans are turning up.

And the thing about large numbers of people jumping on a successful bandwagon, is that only some of them will disappear when success dries up. Some others will have been converted into die hard supporters.

I'm a blow in to be honest. Hence the bandwagon name. I would have caught 1/2 home games each year up until about 5 years ago. At that stage a couple of things happened, (i) travel requirements for work dropped off so I was around for more home games, (ii) had more money so could afford going to more games and (iii) was fed up being kicked over to the north/south (wet) stands for HC games as I was buying a john doe ticket every time. So I took the plunge on a season ticket and only miss a game a season at this stage.

I think the difference between Ireland and Wales is down to identity - of the regions/provinces.

From what some of the Welsh posters on here are saying, rugby in Wales was all about the clubs, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that there was never a competitiobn between the regions (not even a token one).

Historically provincial competition has been a big deal in Ireland. The GAA had the Railway Cup, this was a huge competition up until the late 80's/early 90's. At it'speak a railway cup medal was as valuable as an All Ireland( 40's-50's) - with regard to GAA most people identified themselves with their club, county and province.

Rugby also had the same competition structure - the 4 provinces plus the Exiles team from the UK. Again this was a reasonably big competition, for most players the aspiration would have been play for your club, progress to the provincial team and progress to the national team - more often than not you would need to make an impact at interpro's before making the national set up.

When rugby went pro and the IRFU set up the provinces as professional units, they were not creating anything new - they were just tapping into an identity that all reading existed in the psyche of most Irish people - the affiliation to your province.

The winter season means that rugby does not compete with GAA - I know Munster have a good follwing from a lot of GAA strongholds. The flipside for rugby though is that the emergence of the the provinces as succesful professional entities has hit the clubs hard. Attendences at club rugby games have taken a huge hit by all accounts.

I don't really buy into the regional rugby is only 8 years old hence low attendances.

In NZ when the super rugby franchises were 8 years old they have big crowds and good following, and I'd say the clubs below them had very much arivalry like Welsh clubs, yet people from the clubs could unite together to watch the franchise.

So why is it taking Wales a lot longer to get like the franchises (my only beleif is thats its becase a club from the region was promoted, rather than setting up a brand new identy.

The old AIB league in Ireland is really struggling now the Provinces are the pro teams attendances are way way down, you'd have to think that if the regions did draw big crowds that the Welsh prem would also suffer the same way.

Thats why when Welsh fans say to increase attendance they need, traditional saturday kick off times I have to disagree. Traditional sat kick off times should be the club teams time, and the Provinces and regions shouldn't compete with them, they take enough fans away as it is never mind competing for KO times.

I remember reading an article before that discussed attendances in the Celtic countries in the magners/rabbo over the years. The results surprised me. Only Connacht had seen attendances fall over ten years. Every other team had increases. Small increases but increases nevertheless. The Irish sides mostly saw attendances soar though. So it's compared to these that other sides look bad. Saracens are not pulling any more people in than the Ospreys for example. It still seems healthy to me. It's just in comparison to Leinster or Munster that attendances look poor. Take those two out of it and you get steady, small increases. I wish I could find the article. If I get time I may dig it out.

Kingshu wrote:
So why is it taking Wales a lot longer to get like the franchises (my only beleif is thats its becase a club from the region was promoted, rather than setting up a brand new identy.

Bingo! This was the mistake the WRU made.

A Neath fan is NEVER going to support a Swansea supported team and vice aversa. So the OSPREYS were in for a hiding on attendances from the start.

I've made this point before on other threads but there are ready made provinces in Wales that existed in the old kingdoms that pretty much split wales evenly in 4 regions (you have to club some of the smaller ones together to do this but it works). But the WRU folded to the pressure of the big clubs and Wales ended up with the mess they have now.

Kingshu wrote:I don't really buy into the regional rugby is only 8 years old hence low attendances.

In NZ when the super rugby franchises were 8 years old they have big crowds and good following, and I'd say the clubs below them had very much arivalry like Welsh clubs, yet people from the clubs could unite together to watch the franchise.

So why is it taking Wales a lot longer to get like the franchises (my only beleif is thats its becase a club from the region was promoted, rather than setting up a brand new identy.

The old AIB league in Ireland is really struggling now the Provinces are the pro teams attendances are way way down, you'd have to think that if the regions did draw big crowds that the Welsh prem would also suffer the same way.

Thats why when Welsh fans say to increase attendance they need, traditional saturday kick off times I have to disagree. Traditional sat kick off times should be the club teams time, and the Provinces and regions shouldn't compete with them, they take enough fans away as it is never mind competing for KO times.

You're kidding right? Apart from the Crusaders the rest of the franchises don't have a great deal of support. Have you seen a Hurricanes or Chiefs game on the TV.

My question to Leinster fans on this board is this: were you one of the original 6,000 or are you one of the new followers? There must be an awful lot of new followers so there must be some on here. Did success persuade you to go? If so, why didn't you go in the past? What did you do instead?

I wasn’t one of the original 6k, I started following Leinster on tv at first, RTE used to show Heineken cup games and I could catch a good few league games on Setanta so I was just watching them at home from around 04/05 maybe? I had always wanted to attend matches but I come from an area where rugby is not (or certainly was not) popular so none of my friends would have had any interest. Success did make me want to go more but it didn’t actually make me attend, I started attending when, a few years ago, I met a fella I used to go to college with and he told me he was in the exact same boat, he would have loved to attend but didn’t have anyone to go with. We decided to make it to as many game the following season as possible. That was the 08/09 season and I’ve been a season ticket holder ever since.