How do you Judge your teams Performance?

First topic message reminder :

AS we head into 2012 with 4 major sides 2 in each hemisphere,with New Coaching setups,celebrating 606 v2 `s first year.
What is your measure of success and failure?this applies at Club,Provincial,and Test Level.Many here I know only holding a
RWC will do,cold comfort for most International sides .Winning a league,A Heineken Cup,a 4N`s,6Ns,a Grand Slam or a Super15.
My self the criteria[as is well known] is to be IRB rated Number One,and head to Head victories over all comers of 75%.I have`nt
Changed because the All Blacks won there second RWC[rather luckily it seems from comments].At least there was one question
answered,can the All Blacks win a RWC without Dan Carter and Ritchie McCaw.Yes ,and irony the reviled Stephen Donald 4th choice
did the deed.
Hopefully once the cesspit,which is the self serving RFU is sorted,England will be a force again in the World,best wishes to the new Coaching set up.

aucklandlaurie wrote: A penalty is'nt any where near as bad, especially if it was one of your team mates trying to do something that might have created points for your team,(not that i'd ever recommend cheating).

Not even Sir Richie will recommend cheating.

Its ridiculous to suggest that because you want your team to win you have sold your soul. Sport is about competition and winning, not about being noble losers, there is no glory in loss.

It is not about glory when losing, it is about pride when you win because your team played a good game.

At odd times the odd team mate might do the odd thing that penalises the team..(like getting caught by the referee)...and often its an innocent accident..

? My point exactly

Pride when you win, glory when you win, when you lose there is nothing.

Pride in a losing performance is just bollix, its losing, no more no less. The performance by the losing side argument is left wing bleeding heart tripe.

Even when you lose you can be proud of your team's performance.

When we have a brilliant game against New Zealand and we lose because they were playing great rugby, I am dissappointed to lose, but yet still proud of our team performance

Gatts wrote:Its ridiculous to suggest that because you want your team to win you have sold your soul. Sport is about competition and winning, not about being noble losers, there is no glory in loss.

Gatts,you just dont get it,do you.All teams compete,hopefully to their best ability and the result comes.Hopefully you get a Win.Sometimes you dont.To put the Win as the most important thing above all others disrespects the game and misses the point.
Sport is part of the Entertainment Business not the Footsie.Imagine the crowds if Wales were winning like our near neighbours.Welsh fans know good Rugby and want to watch it.Tedious penalties and drop-goals would miss my spot."We have won!!!!"Not for me,thanks very much.
Have you not got Shane Williams,Gerald Davies,Phil Bennett,Gareth Edwards,JPR???WE have won diddly but these players are revered worldwide.Class outweighs record books everytime unless you are a soulless accountant.

biltongbek wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Taffin
I just gotta ask,Did you lose by a drop kick or a penalty?

I think to lose 3.0 to a drop kick I'd slit my throat.

I almost did in 1999 semi final vs Oz

Ha!
How do you think we Kiwi's felt then in a final

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Gatts wrote:Its ridiculous to suggest that because you want your team to win you have sold your soul. Sport is about competition and winning, not about being noble losers, there is no glory in loss.

Gatts,you just dont get it,do you.All teams compete,hopefully to their best ability and the result comes.Hopefully you get a Win.Sometimes you dont.To put the Win as the most important thing above all others disrespects the game and misses the point.
Sport is part of the Entertainment Business not the Footsie.Imagine the crowds if Wales were winning like our near neighbours.Welsh fans know good Rugby and want to watch it.Tedious penalties and drop-goals would miss my spot."We have won!!!!"Not for me,thanks very much.
Have you not got Shane Williams,Gerald Davies,Phil Bennett,Gareth Edwards,JPR???WE have won diddly but these players are revered worldwide.Class outweighs record books everytime unless you are a soulless accountant.

wtf?

Gerald et al regularly spanked the 4 nations.

Need i remind you that Shane has won 2 Grand Slams?

It is you that doesn't get it...Wales fans want both, the glory and the performance, the glory of 2 Slams in 3 years...you think performance mean't anything then...don't be so naive, there is no reason why you can't have the performance and the result but it is you and the 'brave loser' ilk that settles for being just that, brave but accomplished losers.

Gatts wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Gatts wrote:Its ridiculous to suggest that because you want your team to win you have sold your soul. Sport is about competition and winning, not about being noble losers, there is no glory in loss.

Gatts,you just dont get it,do you.All teams compete,hopefully to their best ability and the result comes.Hopefully you get a Win.Sometimes you dont.To put the Win as the most important thing above all others disrespects the game and misses the point.
Sport is part of the Entertainment Business not the Footsie.Imagine the crowds if Wales were winning like our near neighbours.Welsh fans know good Rugby and want to watch it.Tedious penalties and drop-goals would miss my spot."We have won!!!!"Not for me,thanks very much.
Have you not got Shane Williams,Gerald Davies,Phil Bennett,Gareth Edwards,JPR???WE have won diddly but these players are revered worldwide.Class outweighs record books everytime unless you are a soulless accountant.

wtf?

Gerald et al regularly spanked the 4 nations.

Need i remind you that Shane has won 2 Grand Slams?

It is you that doesn't get it...Wales fans want both, the glory and the performance, the glory of 2 Slams in 3 years...you think performance mean't anything then...don't be so naive, there is no reason why you can't have the performance and the result but it is you and the 'brave loser' ilk that settles for being just that, brave but accomplished losers.

Spanking the 4 Nations is hardly the pinnacle of achievement is it?How many times did Gareth etc beat the All Blacks when playing for Wales?Ditto Shane.Do you not value these "brave losers"?The rest of the World seems to value them but by your reckoning they were losers.You talk plain tosh,I'm afraid.Are you a footie fan by any chance?

To be honest I can see both sides of the argument here. Gatts is a Welsh equivalent of leinsterbaby. Both are fiercely proud of their nations and rightly feel that their own teams should be and are capable of playing more consistently. They may rub people the wrong way a lot of times but I have to admit I admire their passion and firm belief that their team can do better.

As a Welsh fan, you can be justifiably proud of your team´s performance in the World Cup. Yet despite that, they failed by the smallest of margins to make their first ever final. We would´ve seen two finalists who were the most consistent throughout the tournament. Of course, in defeat you have to assess the good and the bad. There are many things to be proud of with their performance but particularly the two games against Australia, they had an opportunity to send out a signal to the rugby world and both times they failed to do that. The games didn´t matter you might say. Well no, I´m afraid EVERY game matters!

If you look back at Wales´record against all teams over the past decade and the new one, they have come very close to beating all of the top sides. There is no doubt that they have the talent and the ability to defeat the top sides. We can chart their progress and measure their performance over time. But at the end of the day, if you fail to win the big matches, the performance of the team doesn´t matter so much.

Of course as an AB fan, I am far too spoilt by my team´s exploits. The further you go down the rankings, the more measured your expectations have to be I guess. But if you keep going back to the question "are we able to beat this team if we play well" and the answer is yes (and we all know Wales can beat anyone on their day!) then I can understand the frustration from sides who keep on missing out on the right results.

How do you judge your team´s performance? By the number of wins they get. What happens if you´re not winning enough? Is the performance satisfactory? What if the performance is satisfactory and you keep on losing? Then you start getting frustrated.

I can see how that can easily happen. If Wales were to win a few on the trot, that frustration would vanish pretty quickly though. It´s going to be an interesting year next year.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:To be honest I can see both sides of the argument here. Gatts is a Welsh equivalent of leinsterbaby. Both are fiercely proud of their nations and rightly feel that their own teams should be and are capable of playing more consistently. They may rub people the wrong way a lot of times but I have to admit I admire their passion and firm belief that their team can do better.

As a Welsh fan, you can be justifiably proud of your team´s performance in the World Cup. Yet despite that, they failed by the smallest of margins to make their first ever final. We would´ve seen two finalists who were the most consistent throughout the tournament. Of course, in defeat you have to assess the good and the bad. There are many things to be proud of with their performance but particularly the two games against Australia, they had an opportunity to send out a signal to the rugby world and both times they failed to do that. The games didn´t matter you might say. Well no, I´m afraid EVERY game matters!

If you look back at Wales´record against all teams over the past decade and the new one, they have come very close to beating all of the top sides. There is no doubt that they have the talent and the ability to defeat the top sides. We can chart their progress and measure their performance over time. But at the end of the day, if you fail to win the big matches, the performance of the team doesn´t matter so much.

Of course as an AB fan, I am far too spoilt by my team´s exploits. The further you go down the rankings, the more measured your expectations have to be I guess. But if you keep going back to the question "are we able to beat this team if we play well" and the answer is yes (and we all know Wales can beat anyone on their day!) then I can understand the frustration from sides who keep on missing out on the right results.

How do you judge your team´s performance? By the number of wins they get. What happens if you´re not winning enough? Is the performance satisfactory? What if the performance is satisfactory and you keep on losing? Then you start getting frustrated.

I can see how that can easily happen. If Wales were to win a few on the trot, that frustration would vanish pretty quickly though. It´s going to be an interesting year next year.

Spot on kia

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:To be honest I can see both sides of the argument here. Gatts is a Welsh equivalent of leinsterbaby. Both are fiercely proud of their nations and rightly feel that their own teams should be and are capable of playing more consistently. They may rub people the wrong way a lot of times but I have to admit I admire their passion and firm belief that their team can do better.

As a Welsh fan, you can be justifiably proud of your team´s performance in the World Cup. Yet despite that, they failed by the smallest of margins to make their first ever final. We would´ve seen two finalists who were the most consistent throughout the tournament. Of course, in defeat you have to assess the good and the bad. There are many things to be proud of with their performance but particularly the two games against Australia, they had an opportunity to send out a signal to the rugby world and both times they failed to do that. The games didn´t matter you might say. Well no, I´m afraid EVERY game matters!

If you look back at Wales´record against all teams over the past decade and the new one, they have come very close to beating all of the top sides. There is no doubt that they have the talent and the ability to defeat the top sides. We can chart their progress and measure their performance over time. But at the end of the day, if you fail to win the big matches, the performance of the team doesn´t matter so much.

Of course as an AB fan, I am far too spoilt by my team´s exploits. The further you go down the rankings, the more measured your expectations have to be I guess. But if you keep going back to the question "are we able to beat this team if we play well" and the answer is yes (and we all know Wales can beat anyone on their day!) then I can understand the frustration from sides who keep on missing out on the right results.

How do you judge your team´s performance? By the number of wins they get. What happens if you´re not winning enough? Is the performance satisfactory? What if the performance is satisfactory and you keep on losing? Then you start getting frustrated.

I can see how that can easily happen. If Wales were to win a few on the trot, that frustration would vanish pretty quickly though. It´s going to be an interesting year next year.

W's on their own are not enough.I want my side to play the best Rugby of which they are capable.If the W comes great.If it ends in a L then we regroup and come again.The day Rugby turns into football I will turn my back.I care passionately about Welsh Rugby,not just Welsh Rugby results!

Taffineastbourne wrote:
W's on their own are not enough.I want my side to play the best Rugby of which they are capable.If the W comes great.If it ends in a L then we regroup and come again.The day Rugby turns into football I will turn my back.I care passionately about Welsh Rugby,not just Welsh Rugby results!

Can't remember if I said so already, but I wholeheartedly agree

biltongbek wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:
W's on their own are not enough.I want my side to play the best Rugby of which they are capable.If the W comes great.If it ends in a L then we regroup and come again.The day Rugby turns into football I will turn my back.I care passionately about Welsh Rugby,not just Welsh Rugby results!

Can't remember if I said so already, but I wholeheartedly agree

You have and I admire you for your understanding.We are a minority in this modern world but I will spread my ethos to all who will have the sense to listen.Some appear too far gone,sadly.

Sadly you are talking amateurish tripe, in the professional era all that matters is the W. If the performance is great then it is icing on the cake. But the cake IS the W.

The AB fans demand not only a win but a win with style. The Springbok fans make similar demands. What´s wrong with wanting both? Let´s face it, if a side is consistently winning, the performance is usually good as well. It's difficult to make winning a habit when your team isn't performing.

Rugby will never be like football. You can't play for a win. You can wind down the clock but getting out to an early lead isn't necessarily enough.

Kia I totally agree with us being spoiled by our team's exploits. Sure we lose-we haven't gone unbeaten in a season for 14 years-but we feel every loss. The fact that they have rarely come in clusters has meant that the World Cup has been usually the time when AB fans feel the disappointment of being also-rans instead of frontrunners. And despite last year's triumph the pain of losing its predecessors still hurts to inspire New Zealanders to do their damnedest not to lose Bill again.

The expectations/standards thing is funny though. The All Blacks are judged by All Black standards in NZ. What makes me smile sometimes is that they are judged by All Black standards elsewhere, particularly in this part of the world (UK/Ireland). If NZ's performance were matched up against the standards/expectations of the rugby people here, they'd be revered, and rightly so (cue 2003 mentions). Vice versa too. I remember NZ's 98 season vividly and the All Blacks were vilified as much as Woodward despite the losing margins being significantly less than England's young team. I'm assuming SA would be the same expectation wise as they are our closest rival but Biltong would obviously be more knowledgeable than I in that area being a Bok fan himself. Thoughts mate?

Hi disney, yes we are pretty much the same as the New Zealanders, however I am getting a feeling there is a growing discontentment with SA rugby supporters regarding our record spicifically against the All Blacks, even thought he last for years were 6-5 in favour of NZ.

We do believe we are your biggest rivals, in fact that the Bok vs NZ is the main rivalry in world rugby, but our record against other nations have slipped.

Sacraficing tests for the "supposed greater good" has not gone down well here in the republic either.

That tends to suggest mate winning matters as well as the performance. This is the impossibly high bar we set. But I see no shame in shooting for the stars. It does hurt when you lose though. Much more than a bad performance and a win.

I agree with Biltong regarding the rivalry. NZ vs SA had been the unofficial world championship for a long while. Obviously we've taken Aussie very seriously since 78.

Despite our World Cup failures we haven't really sacrificed as much as other teams for the greater good test match wise. Two notable exceptions are in 02 when we sent a below strength side to Europe (and almost got away with it had it not for England having their best ever side), and last year's 3N. I think teams with the standards of NZ and SA would get into trouble very quickly with these sorts of sacrifices, as if you don't get what you ultimately came for, you come away with nothing which is unacceptable for nations with our respective histories.