Can Devon Toner force his way into the Ireland Team for the 6N?

Devon Toner has improved his performances this season and had a particularly good game at the weekend against Bath. Although I am yet to be convinced, do any of you think he is ready to take the step up to being a regular first choice for Ireland?

Who do you think will be the four locks in the squad for the 6 Nations?

4 locks - POC, DOC, Ryan and Cullen.

If Cullen isn't there then Mick O'Driscoll.

Toner & Touhy to be in an 'A' game (but one on the bench and Micko to start along side the other)

I've answered this elsewhere Rava but.....I think Toner has been the best Irish 2nd row this season along with O'Connell.

He has been a revelation in every aspect of his game...his handling, ball carrying, contact skills, physicality and as expected he's very good in the lineout.

In fact he's almost unrecognisable from the useless beanpole that used to get driven backwards on a regular basis, that he was!

On form he should be on the bench at least arguably the XV.

I think Kidney will stick with Ryan and O'Callaghan though. Ryan has been disappointing in recent weeks and O'Callaghan is playing better than him IMO.

Cullen hasn't been great but still adds value with his leadership. Touhy has been playing well but is down the pecking order I think but should make the wolfhounds.

Its great that there are so many options and I expect that the 4 locks will be O'Connell, Ryan, O'Callaghan and Toner.

May as well repost this here:

Rava,

I am happy with him this season. He seems to have bulked up a good bit more. which I didn't think it was possible and accepted him to always be a lanky so and so.

I think he has been good in the line out as well as at the break down.

And seemed to be breaking the gainline with consummate ease on Saturday (albeit against a poor enough Bath side).

I would not have MOD near the Ireland squads any more. time to build for the future.. I think the 4 locks mentioned by Wagon are a good shout with Toner coming in when needed and then to get a bit more game time in the Summer.

mickyt wrote:I would not have MOD near the Ireland squads any more. time to build for the future.. I think the 4 locks mentioned by Wagon are a good shout with Toner coming in when needed and then to get a bit more game time in the Summer.

Every time I read this line I cringe. Forget about the future. Win matches today. The reason MOD shouldn't be in the Ireland team is that he barely features for Munster anymore.

I am not fully convinced by Toner but he has done well for Leinster and should be rewarded for it IMO.

Forget O’Driscoll being too old (he’s surprisingly young) he’s just not good enough. Cullen has disappointed me this season, he can’t be much of a leader if he spends 10 minutes in the bin each game (has he got carded in the last 3 games?!). Toner and POC are the form second rows, if they were both 17 year old and fresh out of nappies or if they’re oul fella’s applying for their bus pass, they’re the form locks and should be starting games in the 6 nations (as things stand).

Either of Ryan or O’Callaghan for the bench, possibly Ryan as it gives us a bit more flexibility with backrow substitutions.

Mickado wrote:Forget O’Driscoll being too old (he’s surprisingly young) he’s just not good enough. Cullen has disappointed me this season, he can’t be much of a leader if he spends 10 minutes in the bin each game (has he got carded in the last 3 games?!). Toner and POC are the form second rows, if they were both 17 year old and fresh out of nappies or if they’re oul fella’s applying for their bus pass, they’re the form locks and should be starting games in the 6 nations (as things stand).

Either of Ryan or O’Callaghan for the bench, possibly Ryan as it gives us a bit more flexibility with backrow substitutions.

Exactly Mick. Well said

Ryan, O'Connell, Toner, O'Callaghan as our 4 locks.

red_stag wrote:
Every time I read this line I cringe. Forget about the future. Win matches today.

Fail to prepare stag and prepare to fail. Gatland set the ball rolling on the current era Irish rugby by throwing in young guys like O'driscoll, ROG, O'Connell, Horgan etc. in the deep end and letting them learn to swim and we were rewarded with the greatest decade in the history of Irish rugby. Most of these guys weren't world class over night and you have to invest in the future.

Old Father time waits for no man...tic toc..tic toc...

I agree that neither Cullen or MOD should be near the squad. From Cullen's perspective we have enough "leaders" in the squad.

I am impressed with the way Toner has set about improving and would certainly hope he is included in the extended squad. I think POC, DOC and Ryan are bolters and the fourth spot between Toner and Tuohy.

Rodders we should pick the squad most likely to win us the Six Nations. And the squad most likely to win us the Summer Tour will be different. And the next Six Nations will be different again.

Good players will always be changing. I think without ever "blooding" anyone or picking based on peoples age its very possible to keep your best side winning.

The big problem is that coaches and fans get into the comfort zone with certain players.

Yeah I'm just joking stag I agree actually. I do happen to believe Toner should be picked on merit though. The fact that he is 26(?) and not 34 is a massive plus though

I agree we should look more to the future come the summer tour.

Oh its definitely a plus Rodders I agree entirely. However I have a lot of pals who will just always want youth to be picked "for the future" but if thats the case when do you simply pick your best team?

I agree to an extent Stag, but I just think we need to break away from it when possible. Deccie does so there is no major issues there. I was being polite when calling MOD "old".. He his pants with a capital P.

And DOC is losing it a little as well in the games I have seen. albeit I haven't seen him in all games this year so he might be still ok.

Cullen's discipline has been poor and I hope as our captain (Leinster) he is getting called up on as needing to lead by example.

Realistically POC (Rightly so) & DOC will both be in and abouts the XV. but I expect Ryan & Toner to be in and out of the squad.

We should be picking our side capable of winning the 6N's fair enough. But if someone told me that by playing Toner now and giving him a years experience starting (And I am just using Toner as an example) will not win you the 6N's but give you a better chance in the WC, I would take that.

Think Toner is 25.

The best players are always old enough, we're not going to be in a situation where out best team on merit consists of only players who won't make it to the next world cup. If that happens i'll eat my own face. Pick the best team on merit every time and we'll be grand.

IMO there is no such thing as a 4 year cycle.

We have 2011-2013 and 2013-2015.

The Lions tour has such a big effect on our teams and I think that any "cycles" last at most 18 months nowadays.

I think the Lions coupled with our never ending quest to beat the All Blacks & (up until 2009) to win a Grand Slam resulted in us working towards a yearly cycle almost.

red_stag wrote:Oh its definitely a plus Rodders I agree entirely. However I have a lot of pals who will just always want youth to be picked "for the future" but if thats the case when do you simply pick your best team?

Well for me its about balance stag. You always want to play your best team but you need to introduce players into the international fold as for most it takes time. You have to take the hit sometime and allow time to get players to their peak in time for the big tournaments.

To me most of the successful teams have good blend of youth and experience so you have to keep trying to maintain that balance whilst getting results. Not easy but it has to be done.

I agree we want to be really challenging for the 6N and winning on the tour but we can't totally ignore the age profile of the players too and need to have one eye on 2015. Thankfully we are seeing that the younger guys are stepping up to the plate so a lot of the change will be natural rather than forced.

I think neither MOD or Cullen will be anywhere near the final squad.

I expect Ryan to start with POC and one of DOC, Tuohy and Toner to be on the bench

To me our age profile is fine apart from lock (where DOC is no longer first choice) and centre (where BOD is injured).

Nobodys hand had to be forced. The cream will always rise to the top.

red_stag wrote:To me our age profile is fine apart from lock (where DOC is no longer first choice) and centre (where BOD is injured).

Nobodys hand had to be forced. The cream will always rise to the top.

Great that Paddy was given an extended contract then

Sorry lads, moved off topic there

Rava earlier this season I was shouting for a Wallace - Cave partnership for Ireland.

On Toner, are people able to lift him in the lineout. Him and Hayes together would make a handy lineout.

ha. Imagine not getting a cap for Ireland cause he was too heavy.

Well because he is 9foot 17inches he doesn't need much lifting

Having said that, he seems to do alright this season so I am sure that wouldn't be an issue.

I passed him last year in Dundrum and he looked skinny. but that would always be the case when there was so much body to bulk up.

But then I passed him again in Dundrum in October and the guy is visibly bigger than he was last year..

red_stag wrote:To me our age profile is fine apart from lock (where DOC is no longer first choice) and centre (where BOD is injured).

Nobodys hand had to be forced. The cream will always rise to the top.

I concur it is fine, for now. But as we have a number of key players due to check out in 2013 and another few who will be getting over the hill come 2015 then you have to take that into consideration when picking the squads.

I think we are seeing the cream rise, and I don't mean Paddy Wallace , so whilst age is not irrelevent it is not a big issue for us either.

Yea he is bulking up Im happy to see. In all honesty he weighs a lot (120kg) but could and should get heavier. Richie Grey is even heavier than that.

Rodders, again I disagree. I would be outraged if Kidney was picking his team based on what happens after the 2015 RWC.

There is keeping one eye on the future and taking the absolute pish. Our age profile is very good right now. Lets go and win a few tournaments. Then we can continue reevalute not looking half a decade down the line.

Yeh Stag, I reckon thats up a stone from last year as well. has to be..

Yea he was a miserable scrawny fella before that to be fair. Very tall though - in fact I think its only reason he has been retained as long as he has.

I agree stag, he can get even bigger. Ritchie Grey is the template.

I honestly can't believe the difference in Toner, I can't recall a player improve so much so quickly. Hes a revelation!

Has Hines really left or did Toner eat him??

Stag lets agree to disagree on the age thing, we're in semi agreement anyways.

One day you won't be 23 anymore and you'll appreciate the value of youth!

I do. However I like the players picked to be the best players.

Toner needs to prove more - he shown what he can do when utilised in open play over the weekend. With his size, the tackler must go low, which gives him the chance to offload (he seems to have a rugby brain of some kind!). Leinster need to use him in this way a lot more, and then we will really see how useful he is. He has held back for too long, he now needs to take his chance and show what he can do.

A mobile second row who can pass would be the perfect partner for Paulie.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Toner needs to prove more - he shown what he can do when utilised in open play over the weekend. With his size, the tackler must go low, which gives him the chance to offload (he seems to have a rugby brain of some kind!). Leinster need to use him in this way a lot more, and then we will really see how useful he is. He has held back for too long, he now needs to take his chance and show what he can do.

I think that's exactly what has happened this year. He was obviously behind Hines last year and has nailed the position for Leinster. Question is can he now make the next step up and do it for his country.

I don't think he has just yet.. he is beginning to. He will have to overtake POC, DOC and Ryan still. He is starting for Leinster yes, but he will have to work even harder to displace the 3 of them. If he can show more of what he is capable of doing in open play, something the other 3 cannot offer, he has to be considered if Ireland wish to play an attack-minded game of rugby.

To be honest looking at O'Connell I think he will need replaced sooner rather than later and he may not make it past 2013.

He is playing exceptionally well but looks to be huffing and puffing a lot during games now. He looks heavier than during the RWC and his athletism and speed doesn't look to be what it was, when hes in the loose.

IMO he needs paired with someone who can help with the carrying and Toner fits the bill more than DOC or even Ryan.

I can't believe how much he's improved. I had completely written him off.

as Mickado said (either here or in the pub), we all had written him off to be honest.

so it's refreshing to see him prove us wrong.

it wasn't as if us inside Leinster lads had been harping on thinking he was better than what was every one else perceived. We too felt he was a bit of a waste of space that occasionally looked decent against lesser teams

roddersm wrote:To be honest looking at O'Connell I think he will need replaced sooner rather than later and he may not make it past 2013.

He is playing exceptionally well but looks to be huffing and puffing a lot during games now. He looks heavier than during the RWC and his athletism and speed doesn't look to be what it was, when hes in the loose.

IMO he needs paired with someone who can help with the carrying and Toner fits the bill more than DOC or even Ryan.

Do Ireland need more ball carriers?

I think it is possible to be good at carrying and the hard work.. they are not mutually exclusive as many people seem to think!

You can't have too many ball carriers sin.

I agree with most being said on here.

I had writen Toner off entirely and am so glad to see the lad step up and really try to make the Leinster 5 jersey his own (he seems to be doing a good job of this)

I think leadership is one of the main things CUllen has going for him at the moment and I don't think it is as important for Ireland as it is for Leinster.
I'd take Toner ahead of MOD or Cullen in the Irish squad due to both Merit AND age profile.

roddersm wrote:You can't have too many ball carriers sin.

I'm not sure I agree with this - the RWC team actually had plenty of ball carriers, with Ferris/SOB running the show, and yet we didn't have enough to really make a difference in the match against Wales. They both worked so hard during that game, and our weak midfield/back play did them no favours (or any of the pack). SOB has also shown that his ball carrying is just another strong point of his game - he is very effective at the breakdown. Ferris also has shown this season just how good a ball carrier he used to be, and on top of that he has such a strong defensive game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'm not sure I agree with this - the RWC team actually had plenty of ball carriers

Actually Rory we only had 3 effective carriers and when they were nullified, or injured as in the RWC warmups, we had no plan b.

Don't confuse my comment to mean that players should only be ball carriers, what I mean is that POC carries a lot of ball and I think he is in danger of overstretching himself, which I believe he is doing for Munster a partner who is an effective carrier, amongst other things, would free O'Connell up a bit I think.

Healy, POC, SOB, Ferris, Heaslip (he should be anyway) and Bowe who were starting that game are all very effective carriers. I think you are right about POC however. He will not be able to keep playing his type of game forever.

I don't think we had enough carriers in the Wales game it meant the defence targetted SOB and Ferris cos they knew we didn't have many other options. They also put North up against Bowe rather than Williams.

Toner would be a good inclusion because he moves the point of contact a lot

Yeah thats what I meant Pete. Plus if 3 of your main carriers are in the back row that means you are short at the breakdown. You need more options around the park other wise its too easy to defend against.

Anyways Toners ability in the loose has improved beyond recognition, which is a big plus.

I think he'd be one of our best forwards with regards to moving the ball from contact which is something we Irish are quite bad at, witht he national team anyway.

It would be good to have a dynamic forward who has got good distribution a la Best or Heaslip