WELSH SALARY CAP?

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/default.stm

Updated -

BBC Sport Wales understands Regional Rugby Wales, which represents
the four regions, have consulted the Welsh Rugby Union over the move.

Wales props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are among those linked with moves to France.

Luke Charteris could play there next season while James Hook, Lee Byrne and Mike Phillips are already in France.

The cap has yet to be announced, but clubs in England's
Premiership operate their squads on a total salary budget of £4m per
season.

Senior figures at the regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent
Dragons, the Ospreys and Scarlets - have expressed their views over the
issue.

And they have made calls for the WRU to provide extra cash in
a bid to persuade star players not to move to any French Top 14 and
English clubs or further afield.

Dragons lock Charteris is the latest player to announce he is
leaving Wales and could line up alongside Hook at Perpignan next
season.

Scrum-half Phillips left the Ospreys for Bayonne at the end
of last season while Lee Byrne went from the Swansea-based region to
Clermont Auvergne.

Hook, Phillips and Byrne linked up with their clubs after the
World Cup in which the stock of many leading Welsh players rose as they
reached the semi-finals and then finished fourth following defeat by
Australia.

Since then Ospreys prop Jones and fellow British and Irish Lion Jenkins, of the Blues, have been linked with moves to France.

Dragons wing Aled Brew is also reportedly a Perpignan target
while the Scarlets fear young stars such as fly-half Rhys Priestland,
wing George North and centres Jonathan Davies and Scott Williams could
also fall prey to foreign clubs.
Original BBC article:

"Wales' four regions will announce a salary cap on Tuesday amid fears of a mass player exodus to France.

BBC Sport Wales understands Regional Rugby Wales, which
represents the four regions, have consulted the Welsh Rugby Union over
the move.

Wales props Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are among those linked with moves to France.

Luke Charteris will play there next season while James Hook, Lee Byrne and Mike Phillips are already in France.

The cap has yet to be announced, but clubs in England's
Premiership operate their squads on a total salary budget of £4m per
season.

More to follow."

I think it's just a way of the regions agreeing not to cut each others throats, Dragons, Blues and Scarlets have wanted something like this for a while but now the Ospreys have fallen into line, now as well.

LondonTiger wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:I too had a hard time understanding exactly how this would help in retaining players. The most I could guess is, as far as ethics go, this puts the writing on the wall and clears up the issue of what every player knows he can hope to earn in Wales. Now those who do decide to jump ship can be set aside as undoubtedly having the big £'s as primary motivation and not their country first.

You know what, i really hate the common attitude that players should stay in their country, otherwise they are money grabbing mercenaries etc. After all this is their job and one that can end any day due to injury and is a short career any way.

Why should the Union effectively hold the player to ransom - if you want to play for your country then you have to accept below market rate salaries. It can be beneficial to player and country if they play abroad for a bit. Player will usually improve while cash is freed up to develop more young players.

Under the current regime that's the way it is. I've no problem with someone wanting to play elsewhere and earn more just as long as they don't take us for idiots and pretend their country is still their top priority when it so clearly isn't.

Tbh I have little admiration for a man who has tried to demonstrate devotion by wearing his country's colours only to be turned as easily as thousands before him by the allure of money. Charteris is a prime example of this trend if he does as expected and signs up for Perp.

Is anyone else a bit worried that Wales are going to suffer like when they lost players to league?

Obviously not to such an extreme, but if more and more of our best players leave, and we can't get them released early enough to train properly with Wales, we really are going to suffer.

Hmmm...!

When all the players went North the WRU had their heads in the sand... At least they are trying to prevent a mass exit.

rugbydreamer wrote:Is anyone else a bit worried that Wales are going to suffer like when they lost players to league?

Obviously not to such an extreme, but if more and more of our best players leave, and we can't get them released early enough to train properly with Wales, we really are going to suffer.

That and rugby edging ever closer to football, yes I am deeply worried about. Time to unload the big guns and start preaching lessons of ethics and moral values, lessons long forgotten at that

LondonTiger wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:I too had a hard time understanding exactly how this would help in retaining players. The most I could guess is, as far as ethics go, this puts the writing on the wall and clears up the issue of what every player knows he can hope to earn in Wales. Now those who do decide to jump ship can be set aside as undoubtedly having the big £'s as primary motivation and not their country first.

You know what, i really hate the common attitude that players should stay in their country, otherwise they are money grabbing mercenaries etc. After all this is their job and one that can end any day due to injury and is a short career any way.

Why should the Union effectively hold the player to ransom - if you want to play for your country then you have to accept below market rate salaries. It can be beneficial to player and country if they play abroad for a bit. Player will usually improve while cash is freed up to develop more young players.

I know what you're saying, but it depends on the purpose of the respective nations's leagues. If the league is set up to produce for the national team (Ireland and Wales) then the national coach will want and expect access to players equally. If the clubs are primary functioning businesses in their own right with a distant relationship with the national team (arguably England) then the national coach gets what he's given. If the regions are set up to serve the national cause then yes there is going to be anger at players going overseas where the national coach can't get the same access to players as at home.

tbh i know its an average but 92 grand a year isint bad considering a g.p gets around 100 grand a year and thats after like 10-15 years as a doctor

Welshy, you can't compare sports salaries to everyday salaries although I understand what you mean. In comparison, like I said earlier Jame Hook is on £750,000 per year. People disagreed with that but lets look at some other: Dan Carter earned €900,000 for 9 months at Perpignan, Gareth Thomas was on £250,000 per year at Toulouse quite a few years back now, Rhys Thomas (the very average prop) joined the Scarlets from the Dragons to be reportedly the highest paid prop in Wales on around £200,000 a year. Therefore, 2 things: French teams will pay a lot and James Hook's salary is believable, secondly £92,000 is not going to compete with overseas offers. Also, if thomas is on that at the Scarlets then what are the top players such as Shane Willliams, etc. earning?

How are central contracts going to prevent players from going to France and stay at home? It seems the only way is to pay more money.

Once the lure of playing of their country is counter-balanced by potentially much larger salaries, what would the WRU do that the regions aren't trying to do now to keep talent at home? I am not sure the right answer, but, unfortunately, I think it comes back to money. I am hoping I am missing something here.

It's all irrelevant tinkering - some trivial window-dressing at best.

Letting the best players go to France is a good thing - the standards are so much higher there.

Use the superclubs to develop the youngsters and then pick from the best of them and the best of those playing in France & England for the test team.

Invest the money saved in introducing proper regional academies - not just recruiting from those that live near Swansea and Cardiff.

I have to say I think Ireland have got it right. How many of their tops players play abroad? Geordan Murphy? Anyone else? The main reason I can think, and I know the top players have been targeted, is the tax break offered to those staying at home. That's a cunning way of essentially not being able to match overseas salaries but still offering them more (in the long term) if they commit to staying in Ireland. Very clever and obviously very desirable as the majority of players have stayed. I'm honestly struggling to think of top, first choice Irish players playing aboard???

Only other significant Iriish player plying his trade outside Ireland is Tommy Bowe. Geordon Murphy and Tommy Bowe. I can't think of another.

Ah Doctor, how could I forget! I didn't think to cast my mind across the welsh teams! Yes, Bowe and Murphy (who is now probably not classed as one of the first squad members but was still overseas at the height of his international career).

I think the most important thing is not what they have agreed but the fact that they HAVE all agreed on something !

munkian wrote:I think the most important thing is not what they have agreed but the fact that they HAVE all agreed on something !

Yeah, good point Munkian! Agreement between the regions, and backed by the WRU, is actually pretty groundbreaking! Definitely not the norm.

Griff wrote:

munkian wrote:I think the most important thing is not what they have agreed but the fact that they HAVE all agreed on something !

Yeah, good point Munkian! Agreement between the regions, and backed by the WRU, is actually pretty groundbreaking! Definitely not the norm.

Things are definitely positively moving forward, great news after the WRU spent too many years with their heads stuck in the sand. Now there is a sense of cohesion and issues are being investigated and addressed. Nothing happens over night, but I certainly feel confident that Welsh rugby is in good hands.

The 8 Million Euros that the French clubs recieve from the Federation is the max. They recieve money elsewhere via sponsorship. Great incentive for the gates to be full when you can go watch a star studded team play some good rugby for arond 5 Euros. Heineken is also pretty cheap, 1 euro for half a pint and yes, alcohol is displayed and sold at their stadiums!

They must make a lot of money from sponsorship deals, investment, etc.. As Racing and Toulouse' budget is said to be 29-30 million Euros. Nobody in the world can compete.

The French clubs are vultures.

A quick question: anyone know if there are loopholes in the salary cap? E.g. Could a club use sponsorship money to pay players and then not have to count them as part of the salary cap. Or in other words, could you reach your salary cap but get extra star players sponsored by the local car firm, boulangerie, etc. I'm wondering if the French do this as £8m still seems low as a salary cap for all of the stars they're signing.

I don't think the Rugby Federation has a big say in club matters. So the clubs take whatever money they can and spend it as they please. They recieve cash from their union as every other club in the world does. Although, 8 Million does seem enough to cover the top players wages if the rest of the sponsorship money is used elsewhere (facilities, acadamies). I don't know that though, somebody French would have to explain it.

Ok, I guess I'm just thinking that, if the rumours of James Hook getting £500,00 a year (not the £750,000 I thought earlier) then they can only afford around 16 players under their £8m cap. I'm sure Hook is not their highest profile player, so I reckon they'd spend the £8m quite quickly on not many players?

Perpignan's squad actually doesn't have many superstars. I'd think that Hook, Mermoz, Nicolas Mas would be the highest paid because of their status and value but the rest of the squad is made up of mainly solid dependable club players who are available for pretty much every match.

Roger Lewis interviewed said that no rgby nation can compete against France

Roger Lewis WRU wrote:One simply cannot compete with the vast sums of money that are being pumped into the game in France at present. And sums, I say, which are totally unsustainable.

Rugby cannot, simply cannot afford, to pay the salaries that are being paid in France at the moment for the game to survive and prosper.

What we've got to offer our players in Wales is a fair and reasonable wage and I think we do that.

We certainly do it at the WRU and I think the regions are trying to do that as well and we've got to invest in the bottom end of the game.

If majority of our players left then Gatland would have to re-think his stance but the players would still be available for the IRB timeframe just not longer periods.

£100,000 a year
Nice studio flat in Swansea Marina
Spend your weekends in Mumbles

£500,000 a year
CHATEAU in the Pyrenees or French riviera
Spend your weekends in any number of ridiculous hot European locations

Pretty obvious choice. All that will happen is our better players will be moving to France at a younger age, but it's not a bad thing. The best players in Wales are getting regular rugby in the Top14 and our best up and coming talent is getting regular rugby in the Pro12, which they never had before. It may be a tad annoying for the regions that once a player becomes a "star" then someone else signs them. However there are more and more YOUNG stars in Wales all the time now and they can't all go to France at the same time. We are not going to lose all our star names from the pro 12 and it's good financially for us to have a salary cap and not be paying small fortunes to players like Mike Phillips who would rather get beaten up while drunk or give bouncers in McDonald's abuse on a regular basis etc etc..

If the regions try to say that they will lose their fan base or crowds from losing star players then that is a very lame excuse. The crowds have been, are and will be shocking with or without the biggest names playing there.

All in all the players benefit, the youth benefits and Welsh rugby benefits. More players playing in better leagues means our national side has a deeper pool of riches to chose from.

Re: WELSH SALARY CAP?

by Portnoy Yesterday at 5:00 pm
Would you not agree that salary caps are the last aspiration of a league that needs to hang together or hang separately?




Re: WELSH SALARY CAP?

munkian

Define 'hang'




Re: WELSH SALARY CAP?

rugbydreamer Yesterday at 5:33 pm

not really sure what you mean Portnoy??

Just doing a bit of housekeeping:

" hang together or hang separately"

means that it is in the monopoly interest of top clubs to preserve their collective self-interest by capping costs (hanging together)

hanging separately is allowing the weakest team(s) to go under when they fail to make the required turnover - like the Border Reivers.

When I first saw this I thought that the Regions were making a big mistake, an open invitation to clubs in England, France and Ireland to poach the best young Welsh stars!

But then I thought, are they are drawing a line in the sand? Are they telling the WRU, this is all we can afford? If you want unfettered access to the Wales stars, you are going to have to increase funding.

The WRU recently announced £26.2M profit on a turnover of £55M! It difficult to believe I know, but that what their press release said. It probably goes to justify the £300k Roger Lewis is on (is he worth £50k more that Perpignan are paying Hook?).

The WRU can clearly afford to pay more towards the wages of the international stars. Whether this is achieved through centrally contracting the top 25 players. Or some form of suppliment such as was used to bring Quinell and Jiffy back from Leauge.

So this could be a master stroke by the regions, pay up or lose access to the top stars of the game!

Seagultaf wrote:When I first saw this I thought that the Regions were making a big mistake, an open invitation to clubs in England, France and Ireland to poach the best young Welsh stars!

But then I thought, are they are drawing a line in the sand? Are they telling the WRU, this is all we can afford? If you want unfettered access to the Wales stars, you are going to have to increase funding.

The WRU recently announced £26.2M profit on a turnover of £55M! It difficult to believe I know, but that what their press release said. It probably goes to justify the £300k Roger Lewis is on (is he worth £50k more that Perpignan are paying Hook?).

The WRU can clearly afford to pay more towards the wages of the international stars. Whether this is achieved through centrally contracting the top 25 players. Or some form of suppliment such as was used to bring Quinell and Jiffy back from Leauge.

So this could be a master stroke by the regions, pay up or lose access to the top stars of the game!

A quick glance at the WRU financial review indicated that overall income was down significantly in 2011. As was group surplus, payments to clubs, community rugby and "total investment in Welsh rugby". At the same time payments to elite rugby/regions was up - with no discernible benefit.

In financial management terms, being Chief Exec of the WRU is easier than falling off a log - most of the income streams are virtually guaranteed. It's difficult to believe that they've actually managed to reduce their total income.

Roger isn't doing much of a job - they could recruit someone far better for half his salary - and most of the middle management could be cut completely.