Telegraphs EPS Selections. Are they Right?

Just reading that apparently the following players are looking near certain to be included in the next EPS:

Joe Marler Joe Gray George Robson Chris Robshaw Jordan Turner-Hall Danny Care Nick Easter Dylan Hartley George Chuter Manu Tuilagi Matt Banahan Owen Farrell Charlie Sharples Henry Trinder Mike Brown.

So that's a pretty exciting and surprising mix if it's all correct. Usually the Telegraph is spot on with it's guess work so we could potentially see something like this lining up for the Scotland game:

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Robson
Lawes
Croft
Robshaw
Easter
Care
Flood
Sharples
Turner-Hall
Tuilagi
Ashton
Brown

To be honest that's a crazy team, but it probably would at least mean that the Scotland match wasn't a borefest for the first time in god knows how long.

Article herer
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8966736/Harlequins-full-back-Mike-Brown-expected-to-replace-Delon-Armitage-in-England-squad.html

Some of those players listed should not be included.

Farrell - no where near as good as Barritt and JTH is currently more advanced in terms of IC. Is not a HEC quality 10 at the moment let alone international level where as Flood, Hodgson and maybe Burns are.

Chuter - not in great form, looks tired and even losing his edge at the set piece.

Marler - can't scrummage to a decent AP standard, will be crucified by the Scottish.

Banahan - looks good in parts for Bath but unconvincing against the big teams.

JTH - currently injured, still has issues passing. Though given our issues at IC might do well as back up.

7 Quins in the starting lineup? No Barritt? Seriously hope that is wrong.

Well I can't accuse the England management of bias anymore! Well maybe I can...picking all the Quins players and leaving the Sarries boys unscathed.... oh and picking Farrell Jr.

George Chuter and JTH would be the eyebrow raises, the rest were either blantantly obvious or well in everyones mix
Chuter I get on the "expereince" side but does anyone imagine he could possibly play and be of any value ? If not whats he doing in the playing squad rather than the coaching staff?
JTH ? Srsly? Theres so many options at center it just seems odd.
Banhan slightly depressing but not a great shock if here to be ratined.

Im not buying into the craze about Robson....

IF Lawes starts put a big'un like Garvey or Deacon with him.

Garvey is getting excellent reviews...so maybe him with a lineout guy (who still likes the physical stuff) like Hudson.... .... see what i did there?

beshocked wrote:7 Quins in the starting lineup? No Barritt? Seriously hope that is wrong.

Well I can't accuse the England management of bias anymore! Well maybe I can...picking all the Quins players and leaving the Sarries boys unscathed.... oh and picking Farrell Jr.

Brad Barritt is not English. He's a Saffer.

Portnoy wrote:

beshocked wrote:7 Quins in the starting lineup? No Barritt? Seriously hope that is wrong.

Well I can't accuse the England management of bias anymore! Well maybe I can...picking all the Quins players and leaving the Sarries boys unscathed.... oh and picking Farrell Jr.

Brad Barritt is not English. He's a Saffer.

Portnoy I get bored of trying to explain things to you. Just read the article below -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2074748/Brad-Barritt-homes-England-spot-earmarked-Owen-Farrell.html


As one of a number of overseas contenders chasing England recognition, Barritt, 25, is keen to alter perceptions and said: 'I've got all English grandparents and my mum spent a lot of time here as a kid. The family is from London and Devon. I've always had a strong English culture and when I was growing up I was familiar with lots of little English things like Yorkshire pudding!
'I'd like to think that after being here for three years I can be viewed as an English player with South African connections. I came here very young - 22, 23 - and I want to show I am here for the long haul. I think that's a lot different to a guy who comes over in his late 20s or early 30s, then kicks on to play for England.'


This little quote above stands out. Oh and his mother is English.

Oh. And he is a Saffer with the ludicrously short qualification period as is allowed by the IRB. He learned all his rugby in SA and although not so bad as Tom Waldrom being hijacked into the English RWC party, it's pretty pee-poor if England can't grow and find its own players from within its own player base.

It's a matter of self-respect being displayed by the World's biggest union.

I'd be very surprised if Barritt isn't in there and JTH is, lazy journalism form me.

I'm too not a huge fan of Robson GF although he was impressive v Toulouse and could be worth a punt with Parling out (who's the better lock for me)

Marler would get mullered in the scrum but I could understand the theory of getting him in and working on his technique as the boy has serious potential.

We seem to have a sudden glut of promising LH's in Marler, Waller, Lahiff, Mullen.

Barritt has English parentage.....there are some serious idiots on here.

could be worth a punt with Parling out (who's the better lock for me)

Should be back for the show down with Ulster in January. Myself and most other Tigers fans are praying this is still the case.

Where's Budgie?

Always thought that the Telegraph had a mole in the England camp - they always got the team correct the day before it was announced. After reading this I'm hoping that the mole was one of Wells, Smith or Ford and that they are now clutching at straws.

Turner Hall?
Chuter (seriously?)
Foden is not a near certain?
Ashton is not a near certain but Banahan is?
No Barritt?

To be fair there could be more but the article was quite quins focussed.

I can't imagine that Parling, Barritt, Ashton and Foden as well as a few others wont be there.

Also not sure on JTH but Robson may sneak it if they don't go with Deacon, Robson for me is almost the same type of player as Deacs but younger and better.

The Telegraph seems to have a real hard on for Marler, Sharples and Farrell at 13 long term.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Where's Budgie?

I agree. We need real men playing now.

I just don't see anything in Farrell as an international midfielder. If you took out his goal kicking I doubt we'd hear any of this "Farrell for England", he's a steady player and could be a very good 10 but I just don't see his future at 12/13.

I think the article was more about Mike Brown and his 2 trys at the week end than it was about the EPS.

I would be very surprised if Chuter is in the mix...Would be absolutley gob smacked if Barrit did not get a call up.

Is Marler good enough to make the leap to international level?

Robshaw, Robson, Brown, should be in the squad(if they dont get in now) they never will.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I just don't see anything in Farrell as an international midfielder. If you took out his goal kicking I doubt we'd hear any of this "Farrell for England", he's a steady player and could be a very good 10 but I just don't see his future at 12/13.

Not sure, think he could make a decent 12. Good in defense, decent distribution and kicking and the ability to play 10 or stand at first receiver if needed. Would currently rather have him at IC than Twelvetrees who many posters on here would like to see there. Barritt would be my first choice 12 for England though.

I can't see that Chuter has done enough to be there, or JTH. Banahan could also consider himself slightly fortunate. The article uses phrases like 'considering' and 'in contention' for several players. Personally I dount they've got a finalised squad.

I wouldnt include Chuter...i think we'd get much more out of picking a youngster.

If you think of the potential Hookers:- Hartley will most likely start
Then theres:
Grey - Quins
Lindsay - Wasps
Webber - Wasps
Haywood - Saints (who is looking very impressive)
Paice - LI - Has he missed his chance
George - Sarries (learning under two World Class Hookers...)

Plenty of choice....no need for Chuter

[quote="GeordieFalcon"]I wouldnt include Chuter...i think we'd get much more out of picking a youngster.

If you think of the potential Hookers:- Hartley will most likely start
Then theres:
Grey - Quins
Lindsay - Wasps
Webber - Wasps
Haywood - Saints (who is looking very impressive)
Paice - LI - Has he missed his chance
George - Sarries (learning under two World Class Hookers...)

Plenty of choice....no need for Chuter[/quote

I think Tom Youngs will have a bright future, i know he's unproven in AP level but in a couple of years i'd like to see him in the saxons.

Portnoy wrote:Oh. And he is a Saffer with the ludicrously short qualification period as is allowed by the IRB.

The IRB qualification period has nothing to do with him being eligible, he had a UK passport before he came over here, he's been eligible since birth.

The Telegraph stats pages are quite enlightening when looking at the squad.

I compared Barritt and Turner-Hall (who currently has a damaged cheekbone but will be back for the Big Game). Both have played in 9 matches. Barritt has scored more points and made more passes (72 + 6 offloads to 44 + 15), and they've carried about the same amount (71 vs 79). But JTH has made nearly twice as many yards (316 vs 166), and has conceded one penalty to Barritt's 9.

Clearly they're very different players - but my point is that JTH's game is more rounded than many people think. He can and does pass (and has a faster pass than many scrum halves), but Quins use him as a one man rolling maul to very good effect. The OC and wings play off his offloads, and you could imagine a combination of him and Manu Tuilagi shredding defences.

I think Barritt is the better bet in the short term, because to use a player like that you need forwards who can control the breakdown and take the pressure off Flood - and you'd need a team who could adapt to a different style of play (which England have shown little sign of being able to do).

A year ago I'd have said the same about Foden and Brown, but Brown's style has evolved to the point where he can play a similar counter-attacking role. Foden is just about ahead on stats, on a "per match" basis, but only just. Abendanon's made similar yards but to less effect in terms of points. No-one else is close.

Also on a match-for-match basis, Wood is ahead of Croft and Robshaw on lineout takes, but in pretty much every other respect (carries, metres, tackles, discipline) Robshaw is markedly ahead. Gray is at par or better with Chuter and Hartley.

If Quins players are being considered, it's because they are performing week-in, week-out. Most of the players being talked about have performed at a similar level over the last two or three years - the crucial difference this year being a small but vital increase in discipline and clinical finishing. In other words, form and class.

Wood is ahead of Croft and Robshaw on lineout takes

Daily being injured means that Wood is taking on a greater role in the lineout than before. Croft is one of four jumpers and was behind Parling in the jumper preference so will be used less.

If you think of the potential Hookers:- Hartley will most likely start
Then theres:
Grey - Quins
Lindsay - Wasps
Webber - Wasps
Haywood - Saints (who is looking very impressive)
Paice - LI - Has he missed his chance
George - Sarries (learning under two World Class Hookers...)

I don't want to see Chutes included but rather him than Lindsay who is useless at the lineout, George and Haywood who are not even first choice at their own clubs and Paice who has always struck me as a loose cannon.

The hookers we should be selecting are Hartley, Grey and Webber.

Poorfour wrote:The Telegraph stats pages are quite enlightening when looking at the squad.

I compared Barritt and Turner-Hall (who currently has a damaged cheekbone but will be back for the Big Game). Both have played in 9 matches. Barritt has scored more points and made more passes (72 + 6 offloads to 44 + 15), and they've carried about the same amount (71 vs 79). But JTH has made nearly twice as many yards (316 vs 166), and has conceded one penalty to Barritt's 9.

Clearly they're very different players - but my point is that JTH's game is more rounded than many people think. He can and does pass (and has a faster pass than many scrum halves), but Quins use him as a one man rolling maul to very good effect. The OC and wings play off his offloads, and you could imagine a combination of him and Manu Tuilagi shredding defences.

They each have their merits and I think it depends on the game plan and the players you select around them. JTH has the stronger running game (yardage & defenders beaten, both twice as much as Barritt), but is also more prone to getting turned over (twice as often as Barritt). Barritt scores more tries, has the stronger distribution, kicking game, defence (84 tackles, 11 missed to JTH's 50, 9 missed) and breakdown ability but consequently concedes more penalties.

I think more crucially Barritt runs the Sarries midfield and that is probably the most brutal defensive line in Europe right now. Going to need someone with that organisational ability alongside Tuilagi. Also think of those two in attack and defence a real powerful unit.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think more crucially Barritt runs the Sarries midfield and that is probably the most brutal defensive line in Europe right now. Going to need someone with that organisational ability alongside Tuilagi. Also think of those two in attack and defence a real powerful unit.

JTH runs Quins defensive line and it aint too shabby either.

I'd still go with Barritt and have JTH in the Saxons/midweeksummertourteam really it's about who compliments Manu better and at the moment i'd say Baritt. Till Twelvetrees gets the 12 shirt...