Ben Morgan tells Phill Kingsley Jones that he wants to play for England.

First topic message reminder :

The Scarlets number eight will qualify for Wales before the six nations. He is a born and bred Englishman despite playing his senior rugby in Wales.

Phill said he asked Morgan straight up what he wanted to do and he said he wants to play for England.

So, England fans you have a superb number eight waiting for the call, what do you think Lancaster will do?

Yes, qualifies this summer I believe.

I heard a rumour that players qualifying on residency grounds in England were not going to be included?

Ernst Joubert has potential but seems lightweight to be a international 8

We'll have to wait and see if residency players are ignored. It's a brave move for a coach trying to get the permanent job to rule out that type of player on principle.

DaveM wrote:We'll have to wait and see if residency players are ignored. It's a brave move for a coach trying to get the permanent job to rule out that type of player on principle.

Can also see the point too. I don't think any have been a success have they?

Also I thought Joubert was an openside not a number 8?

No, Joubert is a specialist 8. A good one too.

It may well be that a coach doesn't think any residency based player deserves to be in the squad, but I'd be surprised if anyone wanted to rule out the possibility.

Speaking for myself, I'd be pretty upset if Ernst Joubert is selected for England. Parachuting a 31/32 year old South African straight into the squad would just be humiliating IMO.

Cumbrian wrote:Speaking for myself, I'd be pretty upset if Ernst Joubert is selected for England. Parachuting a 31/32 year old South African straight into the squad would just be humiliating IMO.

Is there much difference between that and selecting a 28/29 year old New Zealander?

No, none at all.

Wella couple of years, but that would ruin the drama of my statement, innit.

So I am guessing you are not a fan of Waldrom?

I did not realise Joubert was that old 31 and not yet England qualified.
I agree with Cumbrian Joubert is not a long term prospect.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Speaking for myself, I'd be pretty upset if Ernst Joubert is selected for England. Parachuting a 31/32 year old South African straight into the squad would just be humiliating IMO.

Is there much difference between that and selecting a 28/29 year old New Zealander?

At the start of a four year RWC cycle, yes, actually. Whether or not you agree with the residency rules, on a purely pragmatic basis dropping a 30+ year old unproven at international level into a squad is too high risk.

And do you really think Waldrom will be England's number 8 come the 2015 world cup? I certainly hope not, for England's sake.

I didnt know that Waldrom and Joubert were that old.

They are not serious contenders at all.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that Joubert should be called up, but he will be an option and the permanent coach may want some experience in the pack for a couple of seasons. Unlikely though, and Haskell will be available from next Autumn.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And do you really think Waldrom will be England's number 8 come the 2015 world cup? I certainly hope not, for England's sake.

So do I, but if it comes down to it, he does at least stand a better chance of being fit and in form in four years' time

I am amazed at the amount of suggestions for ageing foreign some not even English qualified number eights being touted when you have a player as good as Ben Morgan, who is English and wants to play for England.

maestegmafia wrote:I didnt know that Waldrom and Joubert were that old.

They are not serious contenders at all.

Waldroms 28 and the best ball carrier in the Premiership. How that doesnt make him a serious contender Im not sure. I do think hes a limited player though, and Im suprised that Easter has been executed. Lancaster obviously has a coupel of guys in mind, Waldrom may be one but more likely not due to him being a bit foriegn. That does mean the "serious" contenders are either makeshift 8's, as old or older than him, or a bunch of kids coming complelty out the blue and getting dropped in the deep end.


I fear for Englands 6 nations if they pick a squad based purely on a reaction to perceived injustices in prior selections. This squad could end up looking like the sort that goes to the SH and gets spanked every second summer.

I recall in a previous interview with Lancaster that he rates Dowson very highly!

Excuse my ignorance but who's Phillips?

PLease no to Waldrom.....and no to Joubert....let get it back to being an ENGLISH squad please....(ill make an exception for Hartley and Barritt)

Would be good to see Dowson get a shot h'es been thereabouts for a fw seasons now, but, if you want a nasty ball-carrying 8, i still dont see why you're all so against Waldrom (bar the big PSB).

What, because hes a kiwi? But you're happy for Barritt to be selected. Dont be holier than thou c'mon, we're all at it! (and will continue to be until the qualification rules are changed).

I dont think Ben Morgan is ready to be the player people are expecting him to be at international level, yet.

Comfort....

Barrit has an English mother or father (cant remember which)....Waldrom has a long lost granny....theres a big difference....

http://www.cardiffblues.com/rugby/blues_squad.php?player=97060&includeref=dynamic

At 23, he has time on his side and is eager to go down the route of becoming eligible for Wales on the three-year residency rule.

this guy has said he wants to play for wales. if he puts in the work and is the best choice why should he not be chosen?

ben morgan wants to play for england. i would rather have a bokkie who wants to play for wales than anyone else who would rather play somewhere else.

the wru should not offer morgan a place. if gats and the wru are interested in him then let him know but wait for the rfu to make the first move. maybe one day morgan will be glad to pull on the red of wales. but until (if he ever) wants to we should leave him alone.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Excuse my ignorance but who's Phillips?

PLease no to Waldrom.....and no to Joubert....let get it back to being an ENGLISH squad please....(ill make an exception for Hartley and Barritt)

How about Tuillagi?

Tuillagi is English?

What's your point Peter, that people have to stay in their country of birth?

Tuilagi has learnt most of his rugby here...so ill give him the benefit aswell

Ok apart from Hartley, Barritt, Tuilagi, Armitage,....lets keep it an English squad

Sounds like a Monty Python sketch....

HERSH wrote:Tuillagi is English?

What's your point Peter, that people have to stay in their country of birth?

No my point is that Geordie was making exceptions for players he rated, when it really comes down to it theres some degree of double standards when it comes to being offended by the selection of equally qualified players.

There we go...! Its official.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16410581.stm

So instead of trying to out play an excellent young Tongan he has an ageing Kiwi and South African instead.

Funny world eh this residency thing.

Peter,

I dont want to turn this into an eligibility thread but actually no i wasnt making exceptions for players i rated.....

I firmly believe that Barritt, Hartley and yes Tuilagi (through being pretty much brougt up here ) qualify....through parentage

The likes of Botha, Waldrom, Flutey (someone i rated highly) should be nowhere near the team....

Should Barritt etc not be eligible...i have one i would happily replace with....

Barritt - Turner Hall / Allen
Tuilagi - Lowe / Trinder
Hartley - Gray / Webber

So its not me making execptions...

maestegmafia wrote:There we go...! Its official.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16410581.stm

So instead of trying to out play an excellent young Tongan he has an ageing Kiwi and South African instead.

Funny world eh this residency thing.

Bad news for Scarlets then, looks like they will loose him.
Whos the South African?

I think maesteg means Joubert who has no English caps but he could be referring to Hendre Fourie.

Is Joubert even qualified? I thought hed only been here a couple of years or does he have some kind of ancestor?
Hes in his 30s anyway.

Ben Morgan chooses England

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16410581.stm


but will england choose him?

edit: been posted already. i am slow today.

Thank God for Faletau then ! Is it it possible Delve or Powell could get a look in for the Welsh squad or will Gatland want young Wales based players ?

Ryan is playing his bum off again but I think we may need him for lock cover...

No I don't think Joubert has looked in the dusty archives and found an English granny. I do agree that Joubert as good as he is would not be the right choice.

I think Morgan should be picked for England. Some English club would probably snap him up.

To those in support of Waldrom playing for England - do you not find it even remotely humiliating for your team that a failed NZ player who would never have got to touch international rugby back home, has managed to just fly over, find a birth certificate that proves his granny is english, and potentially just walk into the international team? I would find that pretty humiliating, personally.

Well there we go, im weirdly happy as has been said, and its clearly the reason the scarlets are letting go of sean lamont so I dont imagine to see Morgan going anywhere just yet.

As far as Wales number 8s, i dont want to see Ryan there, at 6 or lock yes, not at 8, his carrying isnt up to test level for an 8. Same with Jon Thomas, i wouldnt mind seeing 1 or the other as lock/backrow cover on the bench.

Dogtooth, I've been patiently waiting for Pretorius' residency to finalise. He's stated many times before he loves Wales and would love to play for Wales, and he was the Blues player of the year last year if im not mistaken. I think he could well have a very good future ahead of him. With Tiperic and "Evans - i think" (young Dragons flanker 6/7 been excellant this season, was called up to the Aussie game squad, complete name blank) coming through nicely aswell, the backrow looks good.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To those in support of Waldrom playing for England - do you not find it even remotely humiliating for your team that a failed NZ player who would never have got to touch international rugby back home, has managed to just fly over, find a birth certificate that proves his granny is english, and potentially just walk into the international team? I would find that pretty humiliating, personally.

Rory i honestly dont think he'll get picked....its clear they want Morgan for that spot....and as back up...Guest or narraway could do it...or they could even look to move Robhsaw round etc....

For England's sake I really hope he isn't. It really would be an embarrassment. It isn't even a case of him being a really good number 8, he is not going to hit the heights of Heaslip, Faletau, Picamoles/Harinordoquy, Parisse. He is just going to be that NZ reject in the england team to anyone outside of England.

comfort.
welsh back row is looking very healthy. ryan is on song at the moment. navidi (wasnt impressed with him at jnr level) but he is looking good at the blues. tipuric is fantastic and was very unlucky to missout on rwc11. we have a great first choice in lyd, warb, falatau. we also have experience test players in jon thomas and buggyboy. throw in pretorious and we are well set up.

morgan might struggle to get a welsh cap even if he said he was available for us. maybe england is the better choice for him at the moment.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To those in support of Waldrom playing for England - do you not find it even remotely humiliating for your team that a failed NZ player who would never have got to touch international rugby back home, has managed to just fly over, find a birth certificate that proves his granny is english, and potentially just walk into the international team? I would find that pretty humiliating, personally.

You say failed, others would say very highly regarded S15 player.
How many Irish 8's would get in the All Blacks side? Now answer that honsetly, yep still none.
He didnt just fly over
He didnt just walk into the international team, he didnt make the world cup squad, has never been capped, and in reality probably wont make the 6 nations squad ....but if he did its after a year of England being aware of his availability and him being the best ball carrying forward in the league for two straight seasons.

What I would find humilating is that a player of Waldroms limitation is the best England have available, if that were the case. But then Lancasters dropped Easter, somewhat harshly IMO who I believed was better choice for the world cup and if it were justa chocie betwween the two then Id say a better choice now as well. I ssupect that Waldrom wont be his replacement though, hes just one of the many available players ...including Morgan whos turned down Wales.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For England's sake I really hope he isn't. It really would be an embarrassment. It isn't even a case of him being a really good number 8, he is not going to hit the heights of Heaslip, Faletau, Picamoles/Harinordoquy, Parisse. He is just going to be that NZ reject in the england team to anyone outside of England.

I agree he's a waste of a pick..old foreigner....bring the youngsters through. I'd also rather have Easter than him.

PS I think putting the higlighted one above in that company is a bit premature. Had a crackin WC...but thats some serious company you've put him with there....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For England's sake I really hope he isn't. It really would be an embarrassment. It isn't even a case of him being a really good number 8, he is not going to hit the heights of Heaslip, Faletau, Picamoles/Harinordoquy, Parisse. He is just going to be that NZ reject in the england team to anyone outside of England.

To be fair though its not like any England player ever gets any repsect from bitter internet teenagere regardless of their prentage is it.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To those in support of Waldrom playing for England - do you not find it even remotely humiliating for your team that a failed NZ player who would never have got to touch international rugby back home, has managed to just fly over, find a birth certificate that proves his granny is english, and potentially just walk into the international team? I would find that pretty humiliating, personally.

You say failed, others would say very highly regarded S15 player.
How many Irish 8's would get in the All Blacks side? Now answer that honsetly, yep still none.
He didnt just fly over
He didnt just walk into the international team, he didnt make the world cup squad, has never been capped, and in reality probably wont make the 6 nations squad ....but if he did its after a year of England being aware of his availability and him being the best ball carrying forward in the league for two straight seasons.

What I would find humilating is that a player of Waldroms limitation is the best England have available, if that were the case. But then Lancasters dropped Easter, somewhat harshly IMO who I believed was better choice for the world cup and if it were justa chocie betwween the two then Id say a better choice now as well. I ssupect that Waldrom wont be his replacement though, hes just one of the many available players ...including Morgan whos turned down Wales.

Heaslip in form would be in with a shout of course, as he is one of the best 8s in the world on form. SOB, if considered an 8 would be in contention as well. Just because you say "yep still none" doesn't make it true. In fact before Read NZ had relatively average 8s, such as So'oialo. He was never a world class 8. Then they struggled to find their new 8 before finding Read (who was considered a blindside at first). Waldrom has been through that transition that NZ were in looking for a new 8, and he wasn't good enough. Also the 8s I listed are all world class players (or potentially world class), just because Read is one of the best does not take away from the fact they are world class.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For England's sake I really hope he isn't. It really would be an embarrassment. It isn't even a case of him being a really good number 8, he is not going to hit the heights of Heaslip, Faletau, Picamoles/Harinordoquy, Parisse. He is just going to be that NZ reject in the england team to anyone outside of England.

To be fair though its not like any England player ever gets any repsect from bitter internet teenagere regardless of their prentage is it.

I guess that "bitter internet teenager" is directed at me? Fairly sure you know nothing about me, and even from this forum you would gather I frequently take part in these discussions about England and their new squad. I have suggested players to take England forward. Just because I do not want a reject NZ player to play for them hardly means I don't respect England players.. in fact it means the opposite I am fairly sure, as Waldrom isn't even english

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For England's sake I really hope he isn't. It really would be an embarrassment. It isn't even a case of him being a really good number 8, he is not going to hit the heights of Heaslip, Faletau, Picamoles/Harinordoquy, Parisse. He is just going to be that NZ reject in the england team to anyone outside of England.

I agree he's a waste of a pick..old foreigner....bring the youngsters through. I'd also rather have Easter than him.

PS I think putting the higlighted one above in that company is a bit premature. Had a crackin WC...but thats some serious company you've put him with there....

I know, but I rate him much higher than Waldrom. He is by no means world class yet, but he has potential.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Heaslip in form would be in with a shout of course, as he is one of the best 8s in the world on form. SOB, if considered an 8 would be in contention as well. Just because you say "yep still none" doesn't make it true. In fact before Read NZ had relatively average 8s, such as So'oialo. He was never a world class 8. Then they struggled to find their new 8 before finding Read (who was considered a blindside at first). Waldrom has been through that transition that NZ were in looking for a new 8, and he wasn't good enough. Also the 8s I listed are all world class players (or potentially world class), just because Read is one of the best does not take away from the fact they are world class.

Great comeback Pete! ....I thought Peter seabiscuit had you snookered there but thats as close as anyone has ever come to convincing me that an Irish no 8 might make the All blacks side! .....well almost anyway......

Well, the next best 8 for NZ is Vito, and I certainly wouldn't want him over the 8s we have available. Apart from Read, they have fairly average 8s. Though they have some potential 8s coming through in Whitelock, Saili and Manu.

So Rory with two world class backrowers, second only to Keiran Read ( so not actually world class then?) arent you humilated that the rest of the Ireland team is so poor that they are perenial also rans who cant touch new zealand?

Or is it not actually that humilaiting that not every position in every team is filled with world greats and do you sometimes accept that players have to be picked because there just isnt anyone else? Can you not als accept that bnot being as good as the best in New Zelaand doesnt make a player pathetic by the rets of the worlds (especially the NH's ) standards?

And lets face it we are only having this discussion because Haskell and Crane arent available. (And no im not sugesting either of those are very good but both would be obvious choices for Lancaster one being the expereinced proven international the other being the guy he had starting for the churchill cup)

I suspect he will go with Narraway and Morgan in the sqaud with Narraway playing. Dowson, Johnson and Robshaw offer other options.

Yes Id be suprissed and annoyed withthe coach if Waldrom was picked, but not humilated. Personaly I would have kept Easter in the squad, but Lancaster has a different idea obviosuly.