Irish imports might cause problems for National effort...!

Planet Rugby wrote:Three weeks ago, we touched on a looming Irish problem, noting that most of their provincial propping stock was hewn from overseas coalfaces.

Well, perhaps they were reading and the IRFU made a knee-jerk reaction just before Christmas, but Irish fans have greeted the new foreign player restrictions this week with a mixture of skepticism and relief - a straight split down the middle of the two.

Ulster had more than half of their points this weekend scored by imports. Leinster had all of theirs. That's not healthy. And we repeat: more than half of what seems to be the provincial starting propping stocks in Ireland hails from overseas.

Short-term - say the next five years - it's going to be ugly in the Heineken Cup and we don't see a repeat of the 2009 Grand Slam anytime soon either under these restrictions. But long-term, this cannot be anything but good for Irish rugby.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_7407738,00.html

THIS IS A LINK NOT A PERSONAL OPINION, I DO AGREE WITH ITS SENTIMENTS WHICH IS WHY I POSTED IT. The issue at hand though is NO different to many other countries.

If I was Irish I would have no issue with the amount of talent at my countries disposal, not only are they producing quality players equally talented as Wales's but they are producing better coaches.

The only real issue I would have is why do Ireland wait so long to give young players a chance?

George North was playing for Wales at 18-19, Tom Prydie at 17-18, yet a kid in Ireland seems to be lucky to be capped at 22-24?

Only Conor Murray (22), Cian Healy (24), Keith Earls (24), Sean O'Brien (24), are under 25 in the current Irish squad. there is nothing wrong with the Irish U20 team, but immediate promotion to a national shirt seems very unusual, where Wales tend to throw them in and give them a chance.

If George North was Irish, would it really be 2-5 more years before he got a chance to play international rugby?

I doubt he would have been playing much provincial rugby by now nevermind international rugby. This season would probably be his breakthrough season in terms of playing for one of the provinces. Internationally he would have to wait his turn.

A lot of the late start is to do with how important education is in Ireland. Most go to university before taking up a fulltime rugby career.

Saying all Leinsters points were scored by imports against Connacht is a bit silly, and suggests Leinster have a problem with producing home grown players to score points. That was one game where Leinsters two first choice kickers were absent so Nacewa kicked all 15 points. That's hardly a normal occurrence so it's silly to say "that's not healthy". Leinster probably have produced more top home grown talent than any team in Europe. Not a fair reflection on Leinster in that article really. I'd say about 80-90% of their points are scored by Irish players overall.

Anyway back to the point, I'm against the new rules because they're so rigid and inflexible and will result in infighting between the provinces. Plus the IRFU already has the power to turn down request for foreign signings, so the new rules are completely unnecessary.

However I agree with the long term principle of reducing foreign imports and relying on Irish qualified players. Hopefully in the long run we won't need any foreign signings at all. No reason why Ireland couldn't achieve this goal. It would help the national team. No reason why Wales couldn't either.

The dramatic change in rules is uncalled for though. Ireland failed at the World Cup. But the IRFU has misdiagnosed the problem. The provinces provided Kidney with more than enough Irish players to do well in the World Cup. They beat Australia when the they had the right game plan for the right game.

The problem was Kidney failed. He doesn't know how to play attacking rugby. And he played ROG, D'arcy and BOD in midfield. Three battered banjaxed geriatrics with tons of experience put no power or pace. Kidney's simple forward oriented game plan was seen a mile off by Wales and they brushed us aside. Nothing to do with foreigners at the provinces.

AlynDavies wrote:If I was Irish I would have no issue with the amount of talent at my countries disposal, not only are they producing quality players equally talented as Wales's but they are producing better coaches.

The only real issue I would have is why do Ireland wait so long to give young players a chance?

George North was playing for Wales at 18-19, Tom Prydie at 17-18, yet a kid in Ireland seems to be lucky to be capped at 22-24?

Only Conor Murray (22), Cian Healy (24), Keith Earls (24), Sean O'Brien (24), are under 25 in the current Irish squad. there is nothing wrong with the Irish U20 team, but immediate promotion to a national shirt seems very unusual, where Wales tend to throw them in and give them a chance.

If George North was Irish, would it really be 2-5 more years before he got a chance to play international rugby?

The answer is probably yes, he [North] might be a few more years before he got his chance. But then that's the answer as well as the question. Who would North be replacing? An Irish player that perhaps started his senior International time a little later than in Wales but a person who has had a more steady build up and has probably lasted longer than the young Welsh men who had their International debuts before him. I'm not the greatest fan of the policy but it does seem to be a policy in Ireland that we nurture them longer and then get longer careers out of them. There are exceptions of course but in general there is a good reason why people perceive Ireland as an eternally 'aging' side.

So young blood is nice but it can often prove itself one season and slide into oblivion the next..... Henson? Young blood is erratic, you don't really know what consistency you have and if you want and need a level of consistency in the International side then that risk taking can come back to haunt you. "Hmmm, we thought he was good enough. He isn't. Let's look at that other guy we ignored two years ago." Youth can be entertaining but it can also be an series of endless beginnings.

Munster 3 BJ Botha and 1 Wian du Preez

Leinster 2 Richardt Strauss and 1 Heinke Van Der Merwe

Ulster 3 John Afoa

Connacht 2 Ethienne Reynecke 1 Brett Wilkinson

3/4s of the first choice front rowers in the Irish provinces are not Irish.

maestegmafia wrote:Munster 3 BJ Botha and 1 Wian du Preez

Leinster 2 Richardt Strauss and 1 Heinke Van Der Merwe

Ulster 3 John Afoa

Connacht 2 Ethienne Reynecke 1 Brett Wilkinson

3/4s of the first choice front rowers in the Irish provinces are not Irish.

Come on, Healy is clearly the first choice loosehead for Leinster..

Maestag you are wrong - Leinster have been starting Cronin as first choice as hooker and Cian Healy as first choice loose head, Heinke Van Der Merwe gets a look in when Healy is injured or rested - thats it.

Cant say I'm worried anyway - the guys you've named are why the provinces are competing in and winning the Heineken Cup. Look at BJ Botha's performances against the Scarlets in the double headers.

We have plenty of talented props coming through like Paddy McAllister and Jamie Hagan and plenty of hookers as well.

Ive no doubt the regions would have players of this caliber if they could afford them and would be competing in the HC with them as well - which frankly the regions are finding a nightmare of a competition.

They do seem to be starting Strauss actually - my mistake, hes Irish qualified anyway.

Argument would be VDM and possibly Strauss arent 1st choice. Brett wilkinson is IQ. Controls arenta bad thing in certain positions but not all over

Artful_Dodger wrote:They do seem to be starting Strauss actually - my mistake, hes Irish qualified anyway.

He is not he is a South African who has shown no intention of playing for Ireland.

He is qualified this year maestag and he has spoken about representing ireland

Dont know anyone that greeted the new regulations with relief everyone i know is against them. Not that i dont want the number of foreigners reduced. I would have like just a flat out reduction instead of the rigid rules that have been implemented.

Where's pyrdie now? He got his caps 2/3 years ago and still doesnt feature for the ospreys. Im glad we dont throw them in at that age. Theres more to life than rugby and finishing out school before been brought into the provinces is a good thing and i really think it stands to them.

Also I'm a big believer that you have to earn your caps. Healy got his first cap when he was 21/22 (not sure which). He was probably as good as Horan was for the majority of the season before he got capped. This encourages him to raise his game, which he does and encourages competition and hes probably better off for it now. Going straight into Internationals having played almost no provincial rugby cant be good for a players development or confidence. Wasn't Tait played quite young and got his confidence destroyed (might have been Henson who did it)?

I think Kidney is actually alright for looking at young players he brought in Healy, Murray, Earls, O'Brien, gave Toner a few caps and Spence i think was called up to the RWC training squad before getting an injury maybe and ulster supporter can correct me there. But they were all based on form shown in the Rabo, Heineken and Amlin cups.

Has he qualified already i thought it was at the end of this season? Wilkinson is IQ as well.

maestegmafia wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:They do seem to be starting Strauss actually - my mistake, hes Irish qualified anyway.

He is not he is a South African who has shown no intention of playing for Ireland.

Well he has actually.

Standulstermen wrote:He is qualified this year maestag and he has spoken about representing ireland

Really? Because everything i read was to the contrary. Please post a quote of him saying that he will be hoping to play for Ireland.

He is from a pretty proud SA family, his brother and cousin are Boks. He doesn't qualify until November 2012 so you have a chance to change his mind, maybe more silverwear with Leinster will do it.

Point of the linked article is that the Provinces are focussing hard on HEC and Celtic League success and not so focussed on developing in areas where Ireland, like most other nations are short on talent.

England are lacking front rowers too, as are Wales and Scotland. It seems only France, SA and Argentina have a bottomless supply.

No worries maestag think it says a lot about the regions that you feel the need to make a post attacking the provinces use of foreign players.

Things not looking to hot for the regions in the HC and you make a desperate attempt to argue that Ireland's success in the HC is to the detriment of the national side.

Frankly its bollix.

Im not attacking anyone you idiot.

And its not Bollix either

Name first and second choice front rows for all irish provinces?

Tom Court, Rory Best, John Afoa
Cian Healy, Sean Cronin, Mike Ross
Wian Du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha
B Wilkinson, E Reynecke, R Loughney

7 out of 12 are Irish.

So yes you are talking the biggest load of bollix saying that 3/4 of our front rows are foreign. Even if you had Strauss ahead of Cronin its still not close to 3/4s.

Maybe you should focus more on the regions instead of trying to sort out our house, which isnt even broken by the way, hence all the HC's we have that your regions cant seem to win.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Tom Court, Rory Best, John Afoa
Cian Healy, Sean Cronin, Mike Ross
Wian Du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha
B Wilkinson, E Reynecke, R Loughney

7 out of 12 are Irish.

So yes you are talking the biggest load of bollix saying that 3/4 of our front rows are foreign. Even if you had Strauss ahead of Cronin its still not close to 3/4s.

I asked you to name first and second choice for first and second choice front rows for all irish provinces? I know what they are, I watch them as much as you do.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Maybe you should focus more on the regions instead of trying to sort out our house, which isnt even broken by the way, hence all the HC's we have that your regions cant seem to win.

What the hell am i going to do about our regions.. I am too old to play and i don't have enough cash to fund them. I think its past your bed time.

I find it very doubtful that you see as much of the provinces as I do as it would require you to have RTE and TG4 which arent actually available in Wales - bollix again.

Looking at the second choice front rows, again its not even close to 3/4s.

Ulster second choice front row are all Irish (McAllister, Brady and Fitzpatrick/Macklin.

Connacht have 1 foreigner in their second choice front row (Ah You)

Leinster have 3 - Van Der Merwa, White and Strauss.

Munster have no foreigners in their second choice front row (3 of Horan, Archer, Fogarty and Hayes

So thats 11 out of 24 that are foreigners in the first and second choice front rows.

Not sure about your maths but thats not even half never mind 3/4s

However dont let the facts get in the way of the endless stream of ..... coming out of your mouth.

[quote="maestegmafia"]

Standulstermen wrote:
England are lacking front rowers too, as are Wales and Scotland. It seems only France, SA and Argentina have a bottomless supply.

Sigh...
Last round of Jeff fixtures :
Bath : 1) Catt 2)Batty 16)Tanner 17) Beech 18) Wilson
Irish : 1) Corbiserio 2) Buckland 16) Paice 17) Dermondy 18) Lahiff
Saracaens 2) George 3) Stevens
Gloucester 1) Nick Wood 3) Harden
Tigers 2) Hawkins 3) Cole 16) Chuter 17) Stankvitch
Sale 3) Thomas 16) Titteral
Wasps 1) Tim Payne 2) Webber 3) Broster 16) Linsey 17 ) Caster 18) Castex
Worcester 1) Mullan 17) Shervington
Exeter 1) Strugess 2) Clark 3) Andress 16 ) Alcott
Quins 1) Marler 2) Gray 3) Fairborther 16 ) Brooker 17) Lambert
Newcastle 2) Vickers 16 ) Graham 17 ) Wells 18) Frazier
Northampton 2) Hartley 3) PDJ 16 ) Haywood 17) Waller

Not included there are a number of qualified Welsh and Scottish born players, theres a couple of Samoans who may be too. The point is anyway its utterly ludicrous to claim theres a shortage of English front row players.
Short term contenders for the EPS you have Catt, Wilson, Corbiserio, Stevens, Wood, Cole, Webber, Mullan, Marler, Gray, Hartley and PDJ for 8 spots. Thats assuming that Sheridan and Chuter are going to get pensioned off. Sure many of the best props in the league are foriegn, but they are hired from all over the world for that very reason.

AlynDavies wrote:If I was Irish I would have no issue with the amount of talent at my countries disposal, not only are they producing quality players equally talented as Wales's but they are producing better coaches.

The only real issue I would have is why do Ireland wait so long to give young players a chance?

George North was playing for Wales at 18-19, Tom Prydie at 17-18, yet a kid in Ireland seems to be lucky to be capped at 22-24?

Only Conor Murray (22), Cian Healy (24), Keith Earls (24), Sean O'Brien (24), are under 25 in the current Irish squad. there is nothing wrong with the Irish U20 team, but immediate promotion to a national shirt seems very unusual, where Wales tend to throw them in and give them a chance.

If George North was Irish, would it really be 2-5 more years before he got a chance to play international rugby?

I agree with this post.

I think the OP is talking a bit of bollix actually....apart from about Leinster of course who would be rubbish without their foreign legion......

Alyn,

Its been difficult for youngsters to get a look in. From 1999-2011 Irish provinces were in 7 Heineken Cup finals (winning 5 of them), with Ulster, Munster and Leinster all having been Heineken Cup champions.

They seemed in the same time period to be nearly always 2nd in the Six Nations. Only France has won more 6 Nations matches than Ireland (1 single victory more). It means that although minor tweaks are always needed a total clearout was never really done (or needed).

We had players performing well both for province and country. It would need a special type of player to get called up at such a young age. Now to be fair we have had them. Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Conor Murray were all 21 or 22 years old when they broke into the Irish set up and had obviously been playing provincial stuff before that.

Ulster have 9 Front rowers with full contract - 8 of them are IQ.

Of the Match 23 against Munster 18 were IQ
Of the match 23 against Leinster 23 were IQ

To be honest I don't see the problem. If your Irish and you are good enough you will get your chance.
We are not afraid to drop/not select a NIQ player if an Irishman is doing the business.

Terblanche can't displace D'Arcy at 15 and Danielli has been droped completely

red_stag wrote:
We had players performing well both for province and country. It would need a special type of player to get called up at such a young age. Now to be fair we have had them. Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Stephen Ferris, Jamie Heaslip, Cian Healy, Conor Murray were all 21 or 22 years old when they broke into the Irish set up and had obviously been playing provincial stuff before that.

Stag I think Alyn has a very valid point. Bar when Gatland was coach, it has been very rare to see a high performing young player get selected for the Irish team. Most of the younger guys who are regulars got in because the encumbent was injured. An established player needs to be out of sorts for a long, long time before they are replaced in Ireland.

It is very difficult for younger players to get selected in the Irish side ahead of the established players no matter how well they are playing.

I agree with you Rodders that was the whole point of my post. I agreed that was true, explained why I thought that and pointed out that some players can break in at 21/22 years old but the likes of a George North playing at 18 is rare.

Hows that policy been working out for Ireland and Wales respectivly over the last decade?

"Ulster had more than half of their points this weekend scored by imports. Leinster had all of theirs. That's not healthy. "

the article makes it sound like the Irish teams are full of NIQ players, but I don't think there is any other teams in the NH, at the same level that have more domestic players, playing for them. A maximum of 5 NIQ +1 that could qualify at each, the rest are Irish, and more importantly most are from the very Province they play for.

The NIQ players we do have are top quality players and will standout, because they are so good, but better to have one really stand out NIQ player than 2 average ones!

Golden wrote:Dont know anyone that greeted the new regulations with relief everyone i know is against them. Not that i dont want the number of foreigners reduced. I would have like just a flat out reduction instead of the rigid rules that have been implemented.

Where's pyrdie now? He got his caps 2/3 years ago and still doesnt feature for the ospreys. Im glad we dont throw them in at that age. Theres more to life than rugby and finishing out school before been brought into the provinces is a good thing and i really think it stands to them.

Also I'm a big believer that you have to earn your caps. Healy got his first cap when he was 21/22 (not sure which). He was probably as good as Horan was for the majority of the season before he got capped. This encourages him to raise his game, which he does and encourages competition and hes probably better off for it now. Going straight into Internationals having played almost no provincial rugby cant be good for a players development or confidence. Wasn't Tait played quite young and got his confidence destroyed (might have been Henson who did it)?

I think Kidney is actually alright for looking at young players he brought in Healy, Murray, Earls, O'Brien, gave Toner a few caps and Spence i think was called up to the RWC training squad before getting an injury maybe and ulster supporter can correct me there. But they were all based on form shown in the Rabo, Heineken and Amlin cups.

Prydie is doing very well in the Welsh 7s squad who have also had a good run in the last couple of years.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hows that policy been working out for Ireland and Wales respectivly over the last decade?

Out of the last 8 internationals, Wales and Ireland have won 4 games each.
2 Wales Grand slams, to 1 Irish in that time, and Wales have 4th place World Cup spot, however Ireland have the better results against Tri Nations teams. Ireland also do better in the Heinaken Cup.
Toss a coin or have a race drinking a pint of Guiness to work out which is better!

Maybe it's better to make players wait a few seasons until their capped so they appreciate the oppertunity more, Robert Howley wasn't capped until he was 26, but that didn't stop him retireing from Wales at 31 though.

I guess another issue maybe player burnout, how many seasons can a player play international rugby for? How long before those extra high intensity games start to wear the old body out?

munkian wrote:Prydie is doing very well in the Welsh 7s squad who have also had a good run in the last couple of years.

Yes were World Champions!
Actually Prydie had a horrific injury which required massive knee reconstruction surgery, he was out for the best part of a year and only just came back at the start of the season. He has been playing for Swansea this season and has been playing brilliantly, why he isn;t playing for the Ospreys is anyones guess. I saw him at St Helens for Swansea against Cardiff in what was pretty much a Blues Vs Ospreys second team game and he was fantastic making a fool out of Dan Fish.

He's played 8 of the 14 Swansea games, as well as being part of the Wales 7's squad so he is being developed nicely.

You forgot to add Ireland's far superior record in the 6N over the last decade.
Wales mean position is 4th, Ireland's is 2nd

Also only 4 teams have won multiple Celtic/Magners/Pro 12 trophies - 3 of them are Irish.

I would not swap that and 5 HC wins for a extra Grand Slam and the win in the head to head WC QF

geoff998rugby wrote:
I would not swap that and 5 HC wins for a extra Grand Slam and the win in the head to head WC QF

Sorry to be pedantic Geoff but this is 2012....so thats 4 HEC wins in the last decade

its that long ago....

Mind you you can go back to the dawn of time and you wont find a Welsh win

No point turning this into an argument. I'm happy with our far superior HEC record, our far superior win rate in the 6 Nations and our better record against southern hemisphere sides.

I do think the Welsh are happy with their 2 Grand Slams and RWC semi final. I guess the Irish wish they hadn't fallen just short on so many occasions and the Welsh wish they could play closer to their best more consistently.

I actually think Ireland's days of great consistency ended with EOS. We've been just as up and down as Wales under Kidney. Lots of bad results but also lots of confused performances. Apart from random magnificent performances, Ireland look like they don't have a clue how they're supposed to be playing.

Kidney went out of date when the tackle interpretations changed. The game is is being moved by the IRB towards more attacking rugby. Under Kidney, Ireland will be left behind and I fear more defeats to Wales, if they keep their act together (which isn't guaranteed when it comes to Wales).

Feckless Rogue wrote:No point turning this into an argument. I'm happy with our far superior HEC record, our far superior win rate in the 6 Nations and our better record against southern hemisphere sides.

I do think the Welsh are happy with their 2 Grand Slams and RWC semi final. I guess the Irish wish they hadn't fallen just short on so many occasions and the Welsh wish they could play closer to their best more consistently.

I actually think Ireland's days of great consistency ended with EOS. We've been just as up and down as Wales under Kidney. Lots of bad results but also lots of confused performances. Apart from random magnificent performances, Ireland look like they don't have a clue how they're supposed to be playing.

Kidney went out of date when the tackle interpretations changed. The game is is being moved by the IRB towards more attacking rugby. Under Kidney, Ireland will be left behind and I fear more defeats to Wales, if they keep their act together (which isn't guaranteed when it comes to Wales).

+ 1

Anyway before we get embroiled in another Irish / Welsh debate on the relative successes of their countries and regions, and dragging us hastily back on topic to the actual thread...

I don't think importing players is always a bad thing, but obviously Wales have had a few problems with this in the past, several years ago Martyn Williams retired and none of the regions had anyone who could play openside to replace him. Pretty much all the regions had imports in the back row coming out of their ears and Wales were really struggling to find someone Welsh who could play international rugby at 7. In the end they pretty much took Sam Warburton from the Blues academy to develop while asking Martyn to play on for a couple of years.
As it happened the Ospreys also had a bad run of luck with opensides and Marty Holah went home to New Zealand, so we had to bring on Justic Tipuric out of our academy last year.

Wales have been lucky with the 7 shirt, but it proves that having too many foreign players in certain positions can have a bad effect on the national team.

This thread was never intended to create an Irish vs Welsh debate, it was posted to create debate about the current decisions made at provinces about players brought in and the relative expected future impact of those players.

Wales and Ireland both have the relative achievements, Ireland a good deal more than Wales at Club and international level.

As a Wales fan I am very happy with the measures our administration and our regions are taking to promote and encourage a rich future with plenty of talented young players progressing through the ranks improving the game suiting our situation.

Ireland are achieving already and have been for a decade of decent results, are the measures the provinces and IRFU taking bold or positive for a continued future of irish success.

Agreed no arguement intended.

My post was just a gentle wind up of Alyn - nothing more

Currently a number of imports contribute greatly in the developement/growth of Irish rugby-Greg Feek and Les Kiss to name just two.
If imports are so bad then why not restrict the number of coaches as well? surely all these coaches were once players also?

and these coaches are blocking the development of younger Irish coaches coming through, maybe a limit like only one non-irish defence coach between the 3, and his contract can't be extended. apply to each coaching position.

What happens if the coach gets injured?

You can only replace him with a coach who had a relative who fought in the GPO. On the British side in Ulsters case of course. You have to be sensitive about these things.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Currently a number of imports contribute greatly in the developement/growth of Irish rugby-Greg Feek and Les Kiss to name just two.
If imports are so bad then why not restrict the number of coaches as well? surely all these coaches were once players also?

Funny that you mention the coaches - Donal Lenihan discusses the coaching situation in Ireland.

At times the mix between overseas and indigenous coaches within the system was unbalanced. At one stage Ireland was like a coaching academy for Australia, with Michael Cheika, Alan Gaffney, Matt Williams, Gary Ella and David Knox all enjoying stints in Leinster while Tony McGahan, Laurie Fisher and Jim Williams were holding court in Munster. Ulster also had Williams for a period not to mention countless other New Zealand and South African coaches who have enjoyed stints with all four provinces.

Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/sport/columnists/donal-lenihan/new-rules-could-pave-way-back-to-provinces-for-irish-coaches-178923.html#ixzz1iavIq3OF

Mark McCall & Conor O'Shea are doing well in England. Michael Bradley is doing well for Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup. O'Shea is the smartest of the lot - he got out early because he knows that you have to be foreign to be appreciated as a coach in Ireland, particularly in Leinster. I think Jim Glennon might have been the last Leinsterman to actually coach above amateur level. No wonder the Leinster fans are so anti-Irish born coaches. It would be a laugh if the IRFU insisted that some of the coaching staff were Irish born - Leinster would probably end up with Michael Bradley or Eddie O'Sullivan

Yeah, Leinster - booooooooo!

Remember that time when Munster won the blah, with 22 blah men and 800,000 Munster men roared them on the blah? yeah, well that.

Mickado wrote:Yeah, Leinster - booooooooo!

Remember that time when Munster won the blah, with 22 blah men and 800,000 Munster men roared them on the blah? yeah, well that.

This gave me a laugh. Pretty similar to a few posts I've read here actually!

Sin é wrote:No wonder the Leinster fans are so anti-Irish born coaches. It would be a laugh if the IRFU insisted that some of the coaching staff were Irish born - Leinster would probably end up with Michael Bradley or Eddie O'Sullivan

Anti-Irish Born Coaches - soooo dramatic; I like the sound of it.

I wouldn't feel too hurt though, Sin é - I don't think it's especially an Anti-Irish thing. Afterall, it seems to stretch to Anti-English, Anti-Scot, Anti-Welsh and, of course, Anti-French. Everyone seems to be Anti-French when it comes to coaching - even though they know a two about the game. Anyway, I think Leinster are simply a Pro-SH Coach side. It works for them, it's a rhythm and style they bring that suits the weakling Leinster temperament. Good for a shimmy but not the best at the shunt