Lancaster Drops Mark Cueto, Nick Easter and Mike Tindall...!

Revealed in the Telegraph that Lancaster will cull old dead wood Mark Cueto, Nick Easter and Mike Tindall from his Squad to be announced on the 11th of January.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8990988/Mark-Cueto-will-fight-for-England-spot-after-being-shed-for-Six-Nations-by-coach-Stuart-Lancaster.html

And apparently Danny Care too but for disciplinary reasons over his Drinking Offences.

Couldn't Agree more with the Mark Cueto and Mike Tindall decision.

But I Feel Easter Still has a lot to give in terms of his experience he has had in the England Set-up. With Easter, moody , palmer , Thomson and shaw gone from the england pack whose going to be the experienced guy in the 8?

And With Haskel spending his 6nations eating Sushi thats all out number 8 options from the world cup gone. With the exception of Waldrom but is he really a step in the right direction ? he's around the same age as Easter (im guessing).

WHAT QUALITY ENGLISH N0.8'S DO WE HAVE LEFT!!??

Luke Narraway and ........ ?

EngInAuck wrote:Couldn't Agree more with the Mark Cueto and Mike Tindall decision.

But I Feel Easter Still has a lot to give in terms of his experience he has had in the England Set-up. With Easter, moody , palmer , Thomson and shaw gone from the england pack whose going to be the experienced guy in the 8?

And With Haskel spending his 6nations eating Sushi thats all out number 8 options from the world cup gone. With the exception of Waldrom but is he really a step in the right direction ? he's around the same age as Easter (im guessing).

WHAT QUALITY ENGLISH N0.8'S DO WE HAVE LEFT!!??

Luke Narraway and ........ ?

Dowson
Wilson
Robshaw moving across
Waldrom ( Ok you said English ...)
Guest
Ben Morgan as the wildcard
Crane when hes fit again

There were 14 EQ speacilist 8's playing in the Jeff (8 starting, 6 on the bench) in the last round of fixtures, that was without Haskell Easter Crane or Morgan. Theres hardly a shortage. The shortage is ones with caps.
Of the 3 names mentioned there (and theyve been speculated about for some time) Easter is the suprise. Its a brave move, and ironicaly one Johnson made when he first came in too.

Good - he needs to get rid of the old slow donkeys that have been handicapping England for years.

If Ester is the best you have got its a very poor bunch indeed

I thought that Wilson was Irish.
Dowson isnt a long tern solution (I think he is 30).
Robshaw is a flank that could cover 8, no more than that.
Waldrom is 28.
Guest is a real option but isnt first choice at club and needs a whole domestic season before being considered.
Ben Morgan.....needs to decide who he is for - and, England fans dont know much about him.
Crane is 27 i think. But 1 dimensional - i've not been impressed when he had his caps. But, like Guest he needs a full domestic season before being considered.

propdavid_london wrote:I thought that Wilson was Irish.

Thats a very good point

Great move from Lancaster if you ask me. He's showing that he really has the cojones for the job, and is prepared to make huge changes for the long-term success of English rugby. Good for him.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:I thought that Wilson was Irish.

Thats a very good point

Its ok he's rubbish, you can have him....

Lancaster Drops Mark Cueto, Nick Easter and Mike Tindall
.....And Danny Care.

Lancaster is really showing some balls now. Although I would admit that the loss of the 2 quins boys might have more of an impact on the squad than Tindall and Cueto.

I genuinly feel that if Care had gone to the WC that it might have made a difference. He's more of a game changer than Youngs.

Think its a mistake to take Easter out....even if he's in the squad...he's a solid reliable back up if the new boys find themselves stuck in the headlights so to speak.

This would seem to me however that Morgan is dead on to be included.....

Cueto and Tindall should be let go...and including them would have been a backward step.

Be interesting to monitor the injurys to Lawes, Deacon, Tuilagi....
Apparently Deacon is totally out (some wont be concerned by this)...and lawes and tuilagi should be available...but they'll probably be lacking match fitness....maybe Garvey will be set to start??

Well it's easy to comment without any footy being played yet but I have to say Lancaster is making all the right moves so far. I get the impression he really thinks he can be in this job long-term if he does a good job.

I don't think there's any argument from Cueto and Tindall getting the chop. Easter still has his fanbase though. But I like the idea of Lancaster imposing his selection criteria on the squad. First, it makes a nice clean break from MJ's regime. He is sending out a signal that he is looking to the future. In my mind, that gives him a few games of grace as he's building for the future and the players he picks might not well be up to test rugby just yet as they don't have the experience.

Secondly, it cultivates a healthy environment of competition. If he's axing experienced players then he's going to be looking at players in form then will be the natural conclusion players draw from this.

Thirdly, the boot to Care Bear shows that this is a zero-tolerance for stag do impersonators when test season is upon us.

Now we just need to hope that Lancaster has a few tricks up his sleeve with regard to style of play. I have to admit, I wasn't blown over by this interim choice. But so far, he's been making all the right moves. Here's hoping it continues.

Thing is we're all talking about form etc and Easter is actually the best form 8 in the league. Yes he's older then most and looks a bit out of shape, but until another 8 can play to better standards then Easter consistently then he should be the Eng 8. I'd take him and then another option or two to see how they go.

Dropping Cueto and Tindall is obvious. Neither are close to the squad on merit in my opinion.

Dropping Easter is daft. Comfortably the best 8 in English rugby at the moment. If true, whoever plays 8 for England won't be the best in the country, and I think that's a mistake. The only other fit 8s worth considering are Waldrom and Narraway, and neither are playing as well as Easter.

Cheers SeaBiscuit i ment No.8's with experience should've made it more clear

Dropped Care ... Bloody Hell. Lancaster really is trying to Prove a point.
assuming we will have 3 Scrum Half's in the EPS they would be : Young's , Simpson and (Saints No.9 whose name escapes me) add up their caps and you wouldn't get a number that far off 20?

Whose Next to be axed ?

The question about Easter is form. Yes, he's playing well for Quins and deserves to be included. But he's been in this position before and becomes anonymous at international level, have we ever seen him running and offloading in the white shirt? No.

As for leadership, I don't think I've ever seen Easter lead by example in an England shirt, and his captaincy was dreadful against Ireland in the 6N.

EngInAuck wrote:Cheers SeaBiscuit i ment No.8's with experience should've made it more clear

Dropped Care ... Bloody Hell. Lancaster really is trying to Prove a point.
assuming we will have 3 Scrum Half's in the EPS they would be : Young's , Simpson and (Saints No.9 whose name escapes me) add up their caps and you wouldn't get a number that far off 20?

Whose Next to be axed ?

Youngs Dickson and Simpson, or possibly Hodgson. Id forgotten Wigglesworth had a career threatening injury.
Youngs is a pretty well established international now, simpsons been in anand around the squad for a couple of season and has a lot of club experience for a guy his age.
Dickson is 26 now and has been in the England squad before although not capped. He was however born in Germany so that will upset the pure blood brigade.
Yep we are missing a 50 cap cavalry but these guys arent raw teenages like err Manu Tuilagi.

I do find the Easter non selection suprisong and risky though. They need some senior players in the squad. Its one thing not to select him for the match day team, but to not sleect him at all, hmm. Dropping Care wasnt his choice though, that was forced on him by the players wown idiocy.

Club form is not necessarily an indicator of test form. SBW and Freuan were carving up the Super teams but never broke up that centre partnership of Smith and Nonu who were largely ineffective in a Hurricanes shirt.

The thing with Easter as well is what balance he brings to the backrow. Croft is the reverse of Easter: easily the best athlete in the English backrow. But many have been calling for him to be dropped to the bench to allow the best possible BALANCED backrow to operate.

The thing is if you include Easter, it means you have to find someone else in the backrow to make up for his shortcomings (i.e. his pace). You may well not have the best individuals in the English backrow but if they work cohesively as a unit then they become the greater sum of their individual parts.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Dropping Care wasnt his choice though, that was forced on him by the players own idiocy.

What Care Did deserves a punishment, but i think dropping him for the whole 6nations does more harm than good, Zac Guilford Drove around Naked on a scooter and harassed a female triathlete went into a bar and ended up knocking out an ozzy tourist and punching another kiwi.

He (as far as iknow) hasn't received an international ban from the NZRFU even though this isn't his first recorded incident. The reason being is that they know that he could be a valuable asset to the NZ team.

Mayby a 1 match ban against the scots would've been sufficient but to cut an experienced player from 5 games because of Drunkard Behaviour (which in comparison to Guilford's actions makes Care look like a saint) is ludicrous.

Kia I agree.

Eng you have a good point there but as we all know double standards exist when applied to English players. Remeber the upset over the Haskell gangs non antics in the hotel?
Cares crimes against humanity might hnot quite be in the hitler league but he is still repsponsible for his actions. Lancaster has been harsh but I dont see he had much choice. Its Care who loses the most here, he could have won back the long term starting shirt. Instead Youngs gets a free pass.
Remeber Ashtron dropped Cipriani from his squad for being seen at outside a nightclub.

I do worry that Lancaster may be subjec to too much pressure to show hes his own man and that hes making a clean break and doing all the things those who had it in for Johnson rightly or worngly critisized him for . At some point he has to select someone. Last years Saxons squad wont win the 6 nations.

Crane is 27 i think. But 1 dimensional - i've not been impressed when he had his caps. But, like Guest he needs a full domestic season before being considered

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Crane_(rugby_union)

25. He came off the bench (once or twice) and did ok in a losing team. Not really been given a proper chance. Injuries ended his chances of going to the RWC and touring the year before. His current injury means he will not play until next season so will realistically not be an option until 6N 2013. A real shame as he's a good leader and a far better player than most give him credit for.

Guilford got a four match ban. Unfortunately for the Crusaders, my team, that is a four match ban with the Crusaders not the All Blacks. He also got a fine.

One could rightly argue it was a punishment akin to being flicked with a wet piece of paper. His indiscretion was much more damaging to the jersey than Care´s indiscretion, though one should equally not minimise the seriousness of what Care did.

There are, however, different reasons for why Lancaster has acted this way differently to the NZRFU. Whilst not excusing his behaviour, Guilford has been unable to cope with losing his father and his addictive personality saw him turn all too easily to drink. That in no way excuses his behaviour and I for one think his punishment should have been more severe. Yet in his favour, he has taken it upon himself not to drink anymore. Sometimes the heavy handed approach for someone so young can push him further into the abyss. You can at least empathise with the NZRFU´s decision to get this young man back on track.

However, Lancaster is dealing with Care in an environment where there have been too many alcohol-related indiscretions. For right or wrong, Lancaster is dealing with this perception in the general public that the English rugby players are taking the urine, quite literally. In order to stamp out that perception he is swinging to the other extreme: zero tolerance. Too harsh? Quite possibly. But it seems that it was the only option available to him. Being a caretaker approach is hard enough. How do you build trust with players who think you´re not going to be around for long?

This way, at least he is showing who is in authority and setting the tone for the build up to the 6N and the standards required. This isn't a problem unique to English rugby. JOC, Cooper, Dagg, Jane to name a few just from Oz and NZ have been involved in recent times. But this has not been an isolated incident for England and unfortunately Care has felt the brunt for the frequency of these incidents.

I'll leave you with something to internalise over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8gSL-LJ0iw

Feel free to ask me for a transcript!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
This way, at least he is showing who is in authority and setting the tone for the build up to the 6N and the standards required. This isn't a problem unique to English rugby. JOC, Cooper, Dagg, Jane to name a few just from Oz and NZ have been involved in recent times. But this has not been an isolated incident for England and unfortunately Care has felt the brunt for the frequency of these incidents.

Add Henson, Powell, the big French Bar Steward, and Peel to that list but you still have no-one in the league of the "Italian" 10 even his his best/worst days are behind him.

On Care, absolutely the right thing to do. I am a big fan of Danny but two alcohol-related incidents in a week is not acceptable; he needs to get that sorted. Lancaster is probably secretly delighted to have a clear opportunity to set out the standards for the rest of the squad. It's not as if he's short of good scrum halves (you could even include Karl Dickson, Lee's brother in that list - due back from a finger injury shortly but was in the sort of form where he might have kept Danny out of the Quins shirt).

Tough on Cueto but probably the right long term call. Definitely the right call on Tindall.

I'll reserve judgement on Easter being dropped until I see which 8s do make the squad. He won't make the RWC, but he is in form (at least at club level) and his experience might have been useful.

From a Quins perspective, of course, it's great to have two players we were expecting to lose back and with a point to prove...

Radike Samo is 35 and played very well for australia at 8....we have to look to the future but we also need to build a winning mentality there is no point ditching guys because of age...simon shaw proved in 2009 and mike catt in 2007 that you can still be the best in your position in your mid thirties its different for everyone. To drop nick easter is a mistake there are up and coming guys but he is the best we have he needs to be around the squad. Also with 4 years to the world cup we should not be discounting guys who are 28/29.

Great shame Carl Fearns is injured as he fills the ball carrying role at number 8 and as England captain through the age groups and IRB Young player of the year in 09 has bags of potential.

Samo ran out of puff though in the World Cup.

But does it actually say the reason why these players have been axed is because of their age? That´s what the article infers but maybe Lancaster is looking for the best possible combinations and age doesn't have anything to do with it.

I don't aspire to this theory that you must always build for World Cups after a World cup, especially if it's a disappointing World Cup for you. That´s rubbish. Every test match counts. But maybe Lancaster isn't getting rid of players who are old. One thing that strikes me with all three of those players is that they all lack pace. Maybe instead of culling the old, he is culling the slow and wants England to be more dynamic in the loose and in the backs. Until he picks his side, maybe we should hold off the old comments.

sirtidychris wrote:Radike Samo is 35 and played very well for australia at 8....we have to look to the future but we also need to build a winning mentality there is no point ditching guys because of age...simon shaw proved in 2009 and mike catt in 2007 that you can still be the best in your position in your mid thirties its different for everyone. To drop nick easter is a mistake there are up and coming guys but he is the best we have he needs to be around the squad. Also with 4 years to the world cup we should not be discounting guys who are 28/29.

Quite, imagine if England had rejected the likes of Tindall and Wilko afterthe last world cup where would they be now.

Joking aside I comepltly agree. Age, especially at only 28, shouldnt be the factor. I can only assume that Lancaster very much has a plan in his mind about the exact guys whe wants based on his time with the Saxons and frustrations he had based on his advice being ignored by MJ.
I do feel uncomforatble with this move, especially as the only other vageuly internationaly experienced 8 is unavailable till the next 6 nations at least.

Wasnt Crane the starer for the last Churchill cup? Who else played for the Saoxns in the last couple of years, Narraway, Waldrom Dowson and Johsnon?



Kia I agree looking at the possibilities its actually more likely he is looking to inject dynamism and pace into England. Which is exactly what Johnson tried to do when he forst took over ( and dropped Easter). The side got the cr@p pummlled out of it away then hiome so he called back the likes of Shaw to paper the cracks. Its been the same since. Lightweight England sides get blwon off the park when they come up against Tri Nations opposition. Course in the last few years the fat slow ones have for the most part too.

Agree with kiaka.

The backrow is all about balance.

Easter is not a bad player but no one can deny he is slow.

Tindall and Cueto are also past their sell by date. It will be refreshing to see young blood being picked in their places.

What a change from Martin Johnson and his awful world cup picks.

Well it would appear that Ben Morgan is being picked as the man to take the No.8 spot....

How would you feel about something like....

6 Croft / Wood
7 Robshaw / Wood
8 Morgan

beshocked wrote:Agree with kiaka.

The backrow is all about balance.

Easter is not a bad player but no one can deny he is slow.

Tindall and Cueto are also past their sell by date. It will be refreshing to see young blood being picked in their places.

What a change from Martin Johnson and his not picking enough sarries players.

there you go, fixed it for you.

Well that doesn´t mean the idea was wrong PSW, just that you have to be careful who you choose in his place.

That said, when Moody and Croft were out injured and Wood was called in with Haskell at openside and Easter at 8, suddenly the backrow seemed more effective and better balanced. Those few games they played as a unit, England looked sharper and when Moody and Croft came back, the wheels came off for me. Maybe that was coincidence or maybe not.

It´s a difficult decision but sometimes a gamble pays off. Faletau and Warburton were gambles that paid off for Gatland. Maybe that encourages Lancaster to do the same. I really admired Moody as a fighter but he wasn´t a genuine fetcher. Wood seems to fit that mould more but then if he moves to openside, who do you have as blindside to give what he offered there before? It´s like moving chess pieces around a board but you have to see where shifting those pieces around effects your defence and attack.

Nathan I presume by editing what I say you think Martin Johnson made good picks in the rugby world cup? Do you think that the rugby world cup was successful for England?

Geordie I think that would work.

It is true, The wood,Haskell, Easter backrow did look very very good.
Personally I think its a good move by Lancaster, yes Cueto makes metres and defends well. But he just doesn't score. I want a potent and very dangerous back three.
I want a back three people are scared of.

A back three people are scared of?

My mother-in-law, Lemmy from Motorhead and the taxman. Not sure, apart from Lemmy, they´d be as intimidating on the rugby field.

Foden, Ashton and someone quick and pacy will qualify on that count. But if you don´t have a properly functioning backrow, odds are you´re not going to get front foot ball or ball full stop to give space out wide to the back three.

Lawes out with injury doesn't help England's cause either.

Easter is a very good player - no question hes slow but he provides a lot of muscle and 'go forward'. The stats always shows hes very high up on offloads and carrys and his line out play is pretty good.

What else is wrong? hes a fat boy yes but that doesnt hold him back. I am not keen on his captaincy either - its never really worked out before - but I'd rather he was dropped because there was someone obviously better than just because hes near the end of the line

Find me proof that he was dropped because of his age. Who has been named in his place? Let's await to see what happens in terms of selection before passing judgement.

Ben morgan is 22, perfect long term 8, cap him now!

Well with Morgan now declaring he wants to play for England and Easter out looks like good move

J_D wrote:Ben morgan is 22, perfect long term 8, cap him now!

Except that he isnt that great, wont be available for all the training time camps if his club decide to withold him, and could easily end up being the Tait of 2012 ( although the way things are shapeing up there could be a few of those)

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

J_D wrote:Ben morgan is 22, perfect long term 8, cap him now!

Except that he isnt that great, wont be available for all the training time camps if his club decide to withold him, and could easily end up being the Tait of 2012 ( although the way things are shapeing up there could be a few of those)

Most of the 8's the English posters have named as potential replacements are into their late 20's whereas Morgan is still only 22, he's been pretty consistent over the last few seasons imo, and a move to a jeff side is pretty inevitable after his scarlets contract is up so that would resolve the training camp problem. I don't see many better alternatives for England so a place in the training squad is a very least i would think.

J_D wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

J_D wrote:Ben morgan is 22, perfect long term 8, cap him now!

Except that he isnt that great, wont be available for all the training time camps if his club decide to withold him, and could easily end up being the Tait of 2012 ( although the way things are shapeing up there could be a few of those)

Most of the 8's the English posters have named as potential replacements are into their late 20's whereas Morgan is still only 22, he's been pretty consistent over the last few seasons imo, and a move to a jeff side is pretty inevitable after his scarlets contract is up so that would resolve the training camp problem. I don't see many better alternatives for England so a place in the training squad is a very least i would think.

Fair enough. I guess part of the reason why theres so few young 8s is that most tend to start as flanker and move across as 8 is seen as the grizzled warrior and more technical position ( you have to be able to look down and kick a ball, something thats harder than it looks oif you ask James Haskell)

Im increasingly being won over by the view that Lancaster is looking to bring Morgan into the squad now. Perhaps theres a back doors deal been done with Scarlets that he will be released on the undertanding that this will keep him at the club for the medium term at least. Who knows.

Im not convinced he is the amswer but yep theres nothing wrong with having the option available. I do worryy about this 6 nations though, and teh effect it could have on both established guys who are at their prime and some of the kids who get blooded.

Don't think too many people will be too surprised to see Tindall excluded from the squad - the only consideration would be that there will be little experience in the midfield between Manu T and whoever gets picked at 12 (whether Barritt, Allen, 12T, Turner-Hall), so having an old head might have been worthwhile. The problem is that the old head is now on top of some very old legs.

Cueto has done what was needed, in seeing us bed in Foden and Ashton into the other two back 3 positions. Now time to try and find a third really quick and dangerous player to complete the triumvirate, rather than relying on the 'steady Eddie'.

As with others, I'm more suprised with the idea that Easter won't make the squad, mainly because of the lack of any obvious (uninjured) candidate to replace him. Yes, Easter has his limitations, although I think his lack of pace was sometimes exagerated - I reckon once he's up to speed he's as quick as many back rowers, but his acceleration is not as good. I hope the curret coaches have something up their sleeve and are not going to call on Waldrom as a stop-gap.

HAsn't he just signed a new Scarlets contract though?

bedfordwelsh wrote:HAsn't he just signed a new Scarlets contract though?

Someone on here put that he had another two seasons after this one so it seems he's tied up for a while. If it is a pretty new contract then maybe he had something written in about it if he got picked.

The interview with him and comments form teh club suggest theres been discussions. Its quite possible that hes agreed not to walk onthe contract ( and lets face it this is modern professional sports we are talking about) if hes given release. It would work for both parties, although Scarlets will be left with another non WQ on their books.

If it's true he's out then I don't think Easter is being dropped just for his age. I think it's an excuse to get him away from the squad due to some of the things that happened in NZ.

The 35k down the toilet comment obviously upset another player enough for them to comment on the incident and I'm guessing more felt the same. Add to this that along with Tindall he was another team leader involved in the drinking games and should have known better. Based on the potential of Care missing out due to drinking incidents (I only knew about one, where did the other come from?), Lancaster is going for disipline (thank goodness) and feels Easter is too much of a 'jack the lad' type character and thinks England need to move on. It can't be bacuase of form because as others have already stated he is the best English 8 going by some distance.

Seems a sound theory. If it´s true then I don't expect Lancaster to call him up this season. If he does call up Morgan and he plays like Faletau did and with a back row of Robshaw and Wood, he might well pull this leadership coup / cull off.

To me its question which backrow has the better balance Wood/Robshaw/Morgan or Wood/Croft/Morgan?

I don't think Wood/Croft/Morgan has got the right physical balance, even though they all play very different roles. I think that they would get blown away by larger backrows, like Ireland or France for instance.

What the heck - lets chuck the younguns in there.
Robshaw/Wood/Morgan. see what they can do - that balance looks spot on to me. Have Croft on bench to come on for Wood at 60mins and to add extra pace when there are tired legs out there.
Job done for back row.