Ireland vs Wales - WELSH TEAM ANNOUNCED AT 11:50 THIS MORNING...!

First topic message reminder :

Ireland Six Nations 2012 Squad

15 -Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) Captain
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 -Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Tom Court (Malone/Ulster)
18 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)



WALES SQUAD

BACKS

Scrumhalf
Mike PHILLIPS (BAYONNE)
Lloyd WILLIAMS (CARDIFF BLUES)
Rhys WEBB (OSPREYS)

Flyhalf
Rhys PRIESTLAND (SCARLETS)
James HOOK (PERPIGNAN)

Centre 3/4s
Jamie ROBERTS (CARDIFF BLUES)
Jonathan DAVIES (SCARLETS)
Scott WILLIAMS (SCARLETS)
Gavin HENSON (CARDIFF BLUES)
Ashley BECK (OSPREYS – Uncapped)

Wing 3/4s
George NORTH (SCARLETS)
Leigh HALFPENNY (CARDIFF BLUES)
Alex CUTHBERT (CARDIFF BLUES)
Harry ROBINSON (CARDIFF BLUES)

Fullbacks
Liam WILLIAMS (SCARLETS – Uncapped)
Lee BYRNE (ASM CLERMONT AUVERGNE)

FORWARDS

Tightheads
Craig MITCHELL (EXETER CHIEFS)
Adam JONES (OSPREYS)

Looseheads
Ryan BEVINGTON (OSPREYS)
Gethin JENKINS (CARDIFF BLUES)
Rhys GILL (SARACENS)

Adaptable to both sides of the Scrum
Paul JAMES (OSPREYS)
Rhodri JONES (SCARLETS – Uncapped)

Hookers
Matthew REES (SCARLETS)
Huw BENNETT (OSPREYS)
Ken OWENS (SCARLETS)

Locks
Bradley DAVIES (BLUES)
Ian EVANS (OSPREYS)
Lou REED (SCARLETS – Uncapped)

Back Five Option
Ryan JONES (OSPREYS)

Blindside Flank Forward
Dan LYDIATE (NEWPORT GWENT DRAGONS)

Openside Flank Forward
Sam WARBURTON (CARDIFF BLUES, CAPTAIN)
Justin TIPURIC (OSPREYS)

Number 8s
Toby FALETAU (Dragons)
Andy POWELL (Sale)


Its a month away, just 31 days to the opening game for Wales and Ireland. The excitement of the start of the tournament is as thrilling as it has ever been. I think we are hoping that both sides will show some of the new talent on display in the HEC given their chances at International level. A mix of experience blended in well to temper the exuberance of youth when it is needed.


How do the teams match up historically?

First ever Ireland vs Wales was at Lansdowne Road, Dublin on the 28th of January 1882.

Ireland nil – 2G, 4T Wales
Try: Evans
Bridie
Clapp
Baker Jones

Con: Lewis (2)


The winning result for Wales was their first ever victory in International Rugby. Since then the two Nations have played for the following results.

117 Played 117
47 Wins 64
64 Losses 47
6 Draws 6
164 Tries 201
85 Conversions 98
131 Penalties 126
21 Drop Goals 33
1227 Points 1353
39.66% Success Rate 54.31%

Last meeting was in the Quarter Finals of the RWC 2011. Wales were victorious in a classic encounter. Both nations fielded exceptionally good teams that had done well in their previous pool matches.

The game previous was in the 2011 Six Nations with another win for Wales, controversial due to the try that should not have been allowed scored by Mike Phillips.

Perfectly happy to admit our failing both in the lead up to the WC and through it, Tycroes - you don't read too many comments by Irish people on this here 606 if you think differently. We don't hide when we're bad. We don't roll under the covers and hope it just all goes away. When Irish people are annoyed with performances and consistency and team choices etc, etc - the world hears about it. We're a verbal people and typing comes a close second!

We don't hide under the bushes. The fact remains that for a 'rebuilding' side - and that is what you yourself said Kidney needed to do after the Slam - for a rebuilding side, 2nd in 2010 and 3rd in 2011 is not a decline but evidence of continuing competitiveness whilst being in a cycle of rejuvenating the side. Rebuildings don't come with a 1st, 1st and 1st in your locker... unless you're one of the top two SH sides maybe.

In our rebuilding phase and our incrementally terrible and inspired performances, we've remained a consistent threat in Europe and we've surprised ourselves against Australia. That's the facts. Terrible buildups to WCs are bad practice runs. Being high up in 6N every year and keeping our ranking as high as it can be during a rebuilding phase is our objective - and that has been happening - consistently.

Flyn Im chilled and yes opinions do disagree. Im saeriously not wumming I have no gripe with the Irish. I am being straight about why I think Wales are better at the moment and why I think they will win. I am also giving reasons for that.

By long kicking game from hand, Neither Sexton or O Gara can get the length from hand that Priestland or Hook can. Thats an important part of the Welsh game plan. Were not going to kick for touch because of Irelands strength at the linel. Yes Kerney does have a good boot on him but he isnt going to be at first reciever for the majority of the match. Wales kick long and rely on their rush defence to close the space down.

As for the Backrows, the Irish backrow is powerful and talented but, It is slower than the welsh back row which is one of the reasons they got isolated and turned over in the RWC. With SOB at 7 they lack a genuine openside which is imo a tactical error in the modern game. SOB for all his talent does not have the scavenger play that Warburton does and if you look at the top sides they all employ a genuine openside becayuse turnover ball is vital.

I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Now I havent thrown any "immature" insults out there I have been frank in my assessment but I have restricted it to rugby reasons. I am yet to hear an Irish fan answer with any rugby reasons why Ireland are better than they were last year?

Fly Im well aware of the Irish posters who have criticised Kidney and his selection and his results. I agree with them. They arent the issue though are they, its Deklan who picks the team and tells them how he wants to play. I would suggest he is hiding from tough choices and that is to the detriment of the Irish side both long and short term.

roddersm wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:As for the Irish team at the world cup Everyone talks about the Oz game

No one other than you has mentioned that game.

That is the difference, I am gauging Irelands chances on last months performances, you are basing Wales on last years.

The RWC and last 6N are of little relevence now. I'm not convinced that the Welsh players have kicked on from last season.

We will find out on Saturday.

Rodders I didnt know Ireland had played an international last month? Honestly I thought your last game was in the RWC. Who did you play? what was the score? how well did you do in that game? Im certain your not talking about the wolfhounds match which I did miss sadly but can you send me a link so I can read the match report? or are you saying because your provinces are doing well in the HEC as they did last year that means Ireland will be great? Thats not quite the same is it. So your last game was against ummmm who was it again? what was the result? and how have you improved?

TycroesOsprey wrote:Flyn Im chilled and yes opinions do disagree. Im saeriously not wumming I have no gripe with the Irish. I am being straight about why I think Wales are better at the moment and why I think they will win. I am also giving reasons for that.

By long kicking game from hand, Neither Sexton or O Gara can get the length from hand that Priestland or Hook can. Thats an important part of the Welsh game plan. Were not going to kick for touch because of Irelands strength at the linel. Yes Kerney does have a good boot on him but he isnt going to be at first reciever for the majority of the match. Wales kick long and rely on their rush defence to close the space down.

As for the Backrows, the Irish backrow is powerful and talented but, It is slower than the welsh back row which is one of the reasons they got isolated and turned over in the RWC. With SOB at 7 they lack a genuine openside which is imo a tactical error in the modern game. SOB for all his talent does not have the scavenger play that Warburton does and if you look at the top sides they all employ a genuine openside becayuse turnover ball is vital.

I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Now I havent thrown any "immature" insults out there I have been frank in my assessment but I have restricted it to rugby reasons. I am yet to hear an Irish fan answer with any rugby reasons why Ireland are better than they were last year?

We should be good enough to beat an injury hit Wales side.We have an advantage in the pack at the lineout,we're slightly inferior but able to hold our own in the scrum and are better in the loose by a long way imo.
Halfbacks are even imo,you have the better 9 we have the better 10,centres is advantage Wales with the wings being even and fullback Ireland are slightly ahead if Halfpenny plays and miles ahead if Byrne does (he hasn't been good since the Lions 2009 whereas Kearney is better than ever this year).

You say our backrow is slow that is the most ridiculous statement I've seen,Heaslip and SoB are both very quick and I think geoff998rugby who has inside knowledge of the Ulster team has said Ferris is the quickest player over 10 yards in their squad and they have Paul Marshall who is rapid.Also you say this weakness was exploited and Wales got turnovers when our slow backrow got isolated but in fact the only backrow of ours to give away a turnover was Heaslip who was twice pushed into touch.Compared to 1 turnover from the Welsh backrow that's not exactly a huge difference.

You also say SoB is not a natural 7 and won't make the turnovers that Warburton will,that just shows that you haven't watched enough of him this year.Last season he was primarily a 6 although he moved around the backrow,still he did an excellent job when called upon at 7 for Ireland,this year he is playing 7 consistently and while not making the eyecatching breaks of last year his work at the breakdown has come on in leaps and bounds.

If you properly watch the WC semi you would realise we dominated the game for 50 minutes but due to a predictable attack and stout Welsh defence we punched ourselves out,the Welsh backrow tackled like demons but didn't outperform the Irish backrow they just had better back up from the rest of their team.The main reason Irish fans are optimistic is we know how good our players are and believe we won't be as poor in attack again especially with Sexton and Murray at halfback as your backrow will have to watch them closely and so leave more space for our midfield and back 3.

ferris o bien and heaslip are seriously quick devastating ball carriers. in fact fez is meant to be just behind earls in a sprint.

4 million would say sexton is the top out half and priestland has not been anywhere near as good since world cup. we need to be objective. I actually see hook on for as better option with his running game.

midfield is where all us Irish are concerned against wales bout outside that we are confident across the park.

But Tycroes, you've been making it sound more that the 'tough choices' are the players he chooses. As if the players he chooses will dictate the style they play. Well, if he chooses 15 Leinster, 15 Munster or 15 Ulster players then maybe so. But he is tasked with gelling two pretty prominent Eurpean brands into a working whole. And adding morsels of Ulster and Connacht as he sees fit.

His tough choice is firstly the version of rugby he and his coaches want to play. Perhaps he's taken us as far as he's likely to take us and can't decide. This 6N campaign should give us more of an idea on that one. But it's not about pricking single players out and dropping fresh blood in, based on the qualities of the individual players. It's about coming to terms with the confused rugby Ireland play, coming to terms with the confusion amongst the players asked to play it, forming a more fluid partnership between players who more normally play different brands of rugby. Munster and Leinster are really miniature versions of SA and NZ. Kidney's main problem is deciding which version he wants, which his players want to play and being consistent in coaching the version he settles on. At the moment, that's the confusion and that's responsible for the erratic performances. Nobody seems to have decided an some seem to be evading that issue completely.

but through all this we remain a side other European sides are wary off and a side some bookies still say will be 2nd or 3rd this year again. Not bad for a bunch of sub-standard (below Welsh levels) confused players.

Ireland will be better this year mainly because last year there was a certain amount of experimenting going on during the 6n and the warm-up games. This showed in the way they played notably against Wales and Scotland. They gave away a huge amount of penalties which let the opposition back into games where they should have been put away. They got their act together against England and showed what they were trying to achieve. The warm-ups were...er...warm-ups. They won their group beating a fancied SH team and a fired -up Italian side, who had just defeated France. They came unstuck against Wales for a number of reasons. I think everyone learnt a lesson that day and will not repeat those mistakes.

Most of your assessments are wide of the mark especially about Sexton and Priestland. Priestland has not played well from what I have seen of him this season(but HC form is irrelevent right?). Your back row is not necessarily better than ours, maybe a bit quicker but ours is more physical. How do you know how good or bad our midfield is when nobody knows what it will be? (HC form? Can't talk about that.) Wales were unconvincing against Australia on both occasions and I would say, at this stage, they have not made the most of a good WC. Good luck with that long-kicking strategy. I'm not very convinced it's a winner.

And the regions.....whoops!

Ireland by 10.

The general feeling in Ireland is that we lost the quarter final because we brought a very poor game plan and our attack was far to predictable. We conceded some very soft tries. Our defence is normally very strong. Ireland conceding three in one game just hasn't happened often under Les Kiss before. Even against the French. We also probably underestimated Wales and thought we were on our way to a semi final after beating Australia. Basically we just got everything wrong.

The game plan can and will be changed and the mental approach will definitely be different after the shock of being brushed aside so easily in the RWC. I think Sexton at 10 and a new midfield will make us far less predictable. The defence will be manic after being man-shamed by the Welsh in the last match. It's perfect for the Irish that our first post RWC match is against the team that broke our hearts. Whatever you think of Ireland technically, we've all seen an "angry" Irish performance and how difficult it can be to play against. So many Irish players are bringing superb form into this match.

We're at home. I'm confident we'll put the RWC demons to bed and simultaneously set us up for a crack at the 6 Nations title. If the Welsh win they'll deserve it and I'll support them against everyone else, because they're our Celtic cousins and they play good rugby.

Looooooong time reader, first time poster. Some may remember a few mild missives on the old 606. Really enjoy this new version.

I was prompted to comment due to Tycroes excellent chat (and I mean that) so far in trying to demonstrate why Ireland don't have much of a chance if the Welsh stars align properly. I admire your energy in arguing, sir, but to me it sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself rather than anyone else. Disparaging comments on the effectivenss of the Irish players is fine, after all, I'm not their mum. But it seems to me you are overstating the issues we face.

Don't know i that was pointed out, so I felt I must.

You ask for "what has changed" - others have given this question a go. What I will offer is this: We have now lost to the Welsh twice in a row. It won't happen a 3rd time. Ireland by 15+.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:Flyn Im chilled and yes opinions do disagree. Im saeriously not wumming I have no gripe with the Irish. I am being straight about why I think Wales are better at the moment and why I think they will win. I am also giving reasons for that.

By long kicking game from hand, Neither Sexton or O Gara can get the length from hand that Priestland or Hook can. Thats an important part of the Welsh game plan. Were not going to kick for touch because of Irelands strength at the linel. Yes Kerney does have a good boot on him but he isnt going to be at first reciever for the majority of the match. Wales kick long and rely on their rush defence to close the space down.

As for the Backrows, the Irish backrow is powerful and talented but, It is slower than the welsh back row which is one of the reasons they got isolated and turned over in the RWC. With SOB at 7 they lack a genuine openside which is imo a tactical error in the modern game. SOB for all his talent does not have the scavenger play that Warburton does and if you look at the top sides they all employ a genuine openside becayuse turnover ball is vital.

I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Now I havent thrown any "immature" insults out there I have been frank in my assessment but I have restricted it to rugby reasons. I am yet to hear an Irish fan answer with any rugby reasons why Ireland are better than they were last year?

We should be good enough to beat an injury hit Wales side.We have an advantage in the pack at the lineout,we're slightly inferior but able to hold our own in the scrum and are better in the loose by a long way imo.
Halfbacks are even imo,you have the better 9 we have the better 10,centres is advantage Wales with the wings being even and fullback Ireland are slightly ahead if Halfpenny plays and miles ahead if Byrne does (he hasn't been good since the Lions 2009 whereas Kearney is better than ever this year).

You say our backrow is slow that is the most ridiculous statement I've seen,Heaslip and SoB are both very quick and I think geoff998rugby who has inside knowledge of the Ulster team has said Ferris is the quickest player over 10 yards in their squad and they have Paul Marshall who is rapid.Also you say this weakness was exploited and Wales got turnovers when our slow backrow got isolated but in fact the only backrow of ours to give away a turnover was Heaslip who was twice pushed into touch.Compared to 1 turnover from the Welsh backrow that's not exactly a huge difference.

You also say SoB is not a natural 7 and won't make the turnovers that Warburton will,that just shows that you haven't watched enough of him this year.Last season he was primarily a 6 although he moved around the backrow,still he did an excellent job when called upon at 7 for Ireland,this year he is playing 7 consistently and while not making the eyecatching breaks of last year his work at the breakdown has come on in leaps and bounds.

If you properly watch the WC semi you would realise we dominated the game for 50 minutes but due to a predictable attack and stout Welsh defence we punched ourselves out,the Welsh backrow tackled like demons but didn't outperform the Irish backrow they just had better back up from the rest of their team.The main reason Irish fans are optimistic is we know how good our players are and believe we won't be as poor in attack again especially with Sexton and Murray at halfback as your backrow will have to watch them closely and so leave more space for our midfield and back 3.

At last an Irish fan who talks about the rugby. Now, my point about the irish back row being slow is that they are slower than the welsh. I havent seen a lot of SoB this season so if you say his work at the breakdown has improved I will take your word for it. Has it improved wenough to match Warburton though? Warburton won turnovers in the match against Ireland I think but I cant find the stats for the game. So did Gethin and we will miss him. However our scrum is actually powered up by the changes weve been forced to make.

Sexton and Murray. well One of the reasons we play Phillips is because of his defensive work around the fringe not because of his slow pass so I am not overly worried about the threat of Murray I think Mike will have him tied up.

As your attack was as you say predictable what is new and different that Ireland can bring to offence espescially without BOD. I think you are outmatched in the centres whoever you pick and have a clear weakness in your midfield defence that is only exacerbated without your talisman. Im not saying the irish players arent good but in an Irish shirt for the last 12 months they havent performed. I rate Bowe highly and not just because Im an osprey fan and honestly think he should be moved inside to 13 where he will improve your defence and is potent in attack on the wing I dont see him getting neough ball.

Wales defence is central to their game plan, as is their long kicking game as is there reliance upon counterattack to score tries. Fundementally we are going to play the same way. Im still at a loss to understand what is going to be different about the Irish attack and consider your defence weaker?

I did watch both semifinals of course. Ireland werent in either

SecretFly wrote:But Tycroes, you've been making it sound more that the 'tough choices' are the players he chooses. As if the players he chooses will dictate the style they play. Well, if he chooses 15 Leinster, 15 Munster or 15 Ulster players then maybe so. But he is tasked with gelling two pretty prominent Eurpean brands into a working whole. And adding morsels of Ulster and Connacht as he sees fit.

His tough choice is firstly the version of rugby he and his coaches want to play. Perhaps he's taken us as far as he's likely to take us and can't decide. This 6N campaign should give us more of an idea on that one. But it's not about pricking single players out and dropping fresh blood in, based on the qualities of the individual players. It's about coming to terms with the confused rugby Ireland play, coming to terms with the confusion amongst the players asked to play it, forming a more fluid partnership between players who more normally play different brands of rugby. Munster and Leinster are really miniature versions of SA and NZ. Kidney's main problem is deciding which version he wants, which his players want to play and being consistent in coaching the version he settles on. At the moment, that's the confusion and that's responsible for the erratic performances. Nobody seems to have decided an some seem to be evading that issue completely.

but through all this we remain a side other European sides are wary off and a side some bookies still say will be 2nd or 3rd this year again. Not bad for a bunch of sub-standard (below Welsh levels) confused players.

#

Fly if he chose 15 leinster players I would actually be worried but he isnt gonna. I agree with everything in your post.

Welcome to 606v2, Agnoo!

TycroesOsprey -

From some of the stuff you are saying here I think it is clear you don't know what you are talking about. I'm sorry, and I know you are not being a WUM but some of the stuff you have said is ridiculous. The irish backrow is slow? Won't make turnovers? You haven't watched them play very often then. Saying our midfield will be weak no matter which we pick is just stupid. We have a lot of options now at 13 to replace BOD, not so many at 12, but just writing off whoever we choose as being "weak" is naive and silly. Maybe you will eat your words later?

Thank you luckless. I've resisted for a while, but the 6N's has sucked me in!

God bless it!

TycroesOsprey wrote:
I did watch both semifinals of course. Ireland werent in either

Lol yeah I obviously meant the QF,anyway the main difference I feel will be Sexton at OH instead of RoG,this means we have both a better defender (against Italy in the WC he stopped Castrogiovanni and drove him backwards 5 metres from his own tryline) and attacker at 10,his pace and strength with ball in hand will suck in your backrow and mean you can't just rush up in defence as he is very capable of looping around a rushing defence to create an overlap.If he sorts out his kicking yips for Ireland and I have no reason to think he won't then Sexton is where I see the big difference in what Ireland can bring to the table.
On a related note I think if Priestland is out you will struggle,especially if Hook plays 10 he's a very good centre but I've yet to see him play well at 10 for Wales.

Oh and just let me add somthing to those who accuse me of Wumming, If we lose I will happily eat humble pie and enjoy the discussions as to why we lost next week.

SecretFly wrote:Ruby is right. Let's agree that neither side is going to be raising a white flag until the 81st minute. Do we expect Welsh people to say Ireland have it in the bag? I'd be disappointed in them if they did. And neither will we take a step back and say we're scared. We're not. We might get that way during the game - but for now, it isn't there.

I think one of the most exciting things about the Welsh team over the last eight months since the Baabaa's match has been that we and everyone else don't know how they will play. They are a very young team, only a couple of old heads around the starting fifteen, but they are an exciting and spirited bunch.

James, Rees and Jones are a good front row. We rarely get our best three fit at one time but we are building some very able deputies in James, Mitchell, Bennett, Owens, Rhodri Jones, Bevington and Gill. All good men. Ireland lack the same depth.

Our first choice locks are out for definite but the reserves have been in very good form. They aren't as good as O'Connell, DOC or Ryan. But they aren't soft either they know their opposition.

Back rows of both teams are very exciting. Heaslip, Ferris and SOB have been a wrecking ball in the rabbo and HEC, can't fault a single performance. Equally though Warburton and Faletau were two of the most exciting players at the RWC. Almost every journalist commented on how much they enjoyed their performances. Including Lydiate over the RWC i think stats say they only missed ten tackles. That is phenomenal. Faletau didn't miss one.

We are no mugs up front, how we will play? I really don't know. We will tackle and forage for ball. Support and break tackles I guess as per RwC and prior.

The backs are great on good ball, solid in defence and don't make simple mistakes. We have depth in every back line position now and all these players have been playing well.

This game will be tight, it will hopefully be a lot like our fantastic quarter final. A great match and no Irishman could say they were ashamed of their team in that game.

Lineouts are what worries me. Ireland are the masters, the controll around the maule organised by o'connell is exemplary and ROG or sexton will play to the corners to exploit that.

Like all of you I can't bloody wait...!

Agree about Hook sore, think thats why Wellies is in. Sexton came on in the RWC and didnt add anything to your attack it will be interesting to see if he starts. I dont think the loop will work against the rush defence, although the inside pass might and quick hands or miss moves to get around our midfield might, thats not dekkys game though.

Rory, slow in comparison to the welsh same with your midfield its weaker in comparison to the welsh partenrship in both defence and attack. Earls is quicker than JD tho. If I was an England fan Id love Darcy and Earls in my side as a welsh fan Im very happy with dr Bob and JD.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Agree about Hook sore, think thats why Wellies is in. Sexton came on in the RWC and didnt add anything to your attack it will be interesting to see if he starts. I dont think the loop will work against the rush defence, although the inside pass might and quick hands or miss moves to get around our midfield might, thats not dekkys game though.

Yeah our outhalve work far better when he starts and O'Gara comes on,it doesn't work as well the other way round for some reason.

The loop does wrok against the rush defence,the defenders either have to drift to follow the OH or else risk him getting outside the 13 and creating a 2 on 1 and if they drift then the ball back inside becomes a good weapon.It requires quick hands and your backline needs to be lined up deep which I feel is one of the reasons it hasn't been as effective for Ireland as it has for Leinster,Gaffney liked to have his backs very flat hopefully the new coaching team will encourage the backs to line up differently depending on how they are going to attack.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Agree about Hook sore, think thats why Wellies is in. Sexton came on in the RWC and didnt add anything to your attack it will be interesting to see if he starts. I dont think the loop will work against the rush defence, although the inside pass might and quick hands or miss moves to get around our midfield might, thats not dekkys game though.

Deccie wasn't responsible for the backs though....a man who isn't there any more was. But like I've said - he isn't there any more.


The question for Warburton and others in the Welsh side who sometimes have 'invicible' attached to their names by their fans...the question for those guys is where Does the invincible tags go when playing for their regions?

I mean some say here that club and International are two different beasts - you shouldn't try to find analogies between them as form and perfomance levels are different. So be it - that's why Irish people have been told to shut up about Province - it don't matter.

Well, on evidence, it surely don't matter to the Welsh - players. How can players with so much more savvy than their Irish counterparts at International level walk off a field as losers at club level? Serious question - and don't mention structures. Players meet players - that's the subject.

Last time O'Brien and Warburton looked each other in the eyes and patted each other on the back - O'Brien was in the winning side. If our International levels don't compute with our club levels, certainly it is a very big mystery that International lords can't impose International class on club games?

I don't know the answer to that anymore than you can explain the vice versa for Ireland.

On HEC form you should be sending the six nations trophy to the engravers already...!

I could give a host of reasons why the welsh regions are poor vertainly why the ospreys despite being second in teh pro 12 are poor.

As individuals our players are performing, man of the macth performances for Warburton Faletau Priestland since the RWC. As for our regions, well I would say substandard coaching is a major problem espescially at the Ospreys despite them lying second in the league, Even so we have a team in the qf of the Heineken and a young scarlets side that improves every season in the Amlin. The dragons simply dont have the strength in depth despite some outstanding players.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Rory, slow in comparison to the welsh same with your midfield its weaker in comparison to the welsh partenrship in both defence and attack. Earls is quicker than JD tho. If I was an England fan Id love Darcy and Earls in my side as a welsh fan Im very happy with dr Bob and JD.

Ferris, SOB and Heaslip are speed machines. Faletau looks pacy and Warburton has some pace, but really how is the Irish backrow slow in comparison? Have you tested them all for their 40s/100s or something? Ferris is said to be the fastest over 10m in Ulster, and SOB looks very very quick on the ball nowadays. Heaslip has always been very dynamic. I don't know how you can make statements like that tbh, because there is zero proof, and if anything there is proof as to why that is not true.

TycroesOsprey wrote:I could give a host of reasons why the welsh regions are poor vertainly why the ospreys despite being second in teh pro 12 are poor.

As individuals our players are performing, man of the macth performances for Warburton Faletau Priestland since the RWC. As for our regions, well I would say substandard coaching is a major problem espescially at the Ospreys despite them lying second in the league, Even so we have a team in the qf of the Heineken and a young scarlets side that improves every season in the Amlin. The dragons simply dont have the strength in depth despite some outstanding players.

Priestland MOM performances????
wasnt he drop in the HC and played at FB also.

Wales are a good team, Also so are Ireland. it will be a close match but much of what you are saying is pure POO POO

priestalnd was man of the match against the saints

TycroesOsprey wrote:priestalnd was man of the match against the saints

other than that he has been injured and struggling for form, correct me if i'm wrong.

This time last year a number of people were asking whether the 6n should be sacrificed in preparation for the WC. I believe it was. I think Kidney was trying to introduce a new kind of high pressure high tempo game, giving players licence to try things. Typically Ireland were either getting ahead or parity by half time and attempting to blitz teams early in the second half. The result was some patchy performances and it seemed to gel against England. The Warm-ups were used to gave the whole squad a run out. The WC was heading in the right direction but for one game, which happened to be the big one. Gatland had been watching and nullified a lot of the Irish tactics. There was a fair bit of foot-shooting as well by Ireland.

The shackles are off now for Kidney. He can put out, what he considers to be. his best side and have a real go at this years 6n. He has players coming off great performances in the HC and I believe we will see something good this year, and some consistency.

I think we lose the 'pace of the back row' argument if we have Ryan Jones! He is about as quick as a cloud on a windless day! Not that I don't rate him as a player, but pace isn't one of his attributes.

I think he will throw Shingler in before Ryan - That takes it up a few knots

Ferris and O'Brien are both faster than Lydiate/Jones/Shingler? and Warburton.
Faletau is faster than Heaslip.
We don't win the fastest backrow award with any combination.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:
I did watch both semifinals of course. Ireland werent in either

Lol yeah I obviously meant the QF,anyway the main difference I feel will be Sexton at OH instead of RoG,this means we have both a better defender (against Italy in the WC he stopped Castrogiovanni and drove him backwards 5 metres from his own tryline) and attacker at 10,his pace and strength with ball in hand will suck in your backrow and mean you can't just rush up in defence as he is very capable of looping around a rushing defence to create an overlap.If he sorts out his kicking yips for Ireland and I have no reason to think he won't then Sexton is where I see the big difference in what Ireland can bring to the table.
On a related note I think if Priestland is out you will struggle,especially if Hook plays 10 he's a very good centre but I've yet to see him play well at 10 for Wales.

You didn't hear Shaggy (that is Leinster man Shane Horgan) on the subject last night on Off the Ball. When asked about Ireland's attack (or lack of) in the world cup, he said that the best attacking performance by Ireland was against Italy in the world cup.

None of them had any complaints about the defence.

I'd rate the Welsh front row over the Irish front row even when missing Gethin.

Healy is great in the loose but was completely out scrummed by Adam and Paul James is probably a better scrummager than Gethin.

TycroesOsprey wrote:I could give a host of reasons why the welsh regions are poor vertainly why the ospreys despite being second in teh pro 12 are poor.

No, I didn't want the host of reasons really as that becomes the structures debate. I just wanted an explanation for why players who prove themselves of a higher International standard than their Irish counterparts (the claim made) can so regularly underperform against those lesser players. Coaching? Well a good coach 'wins' and a bad one 'loses' so it can't really be scientifically evaluated satisfactorily. The players are the ones on the field doing the business. You can't blame Schmidt for Leinster's success any more than you can blame Cheika - the players are the constant.

Not to worry - it's just a lingering question in my mind.

The players just seem to play better for Wales simply. Same thing happens in New Zealand with the Hurricanes and Chiefs players.

SecretFly wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:I could give a host of reasons why the welsh regions are poor vertainly why the ospreys despite being second in teh pro 12 are poor.

No, I didn't want the host of reasons really as that becomes the structures debate. I just wanted an explanation for why players who prove themselves of a higher International standard than their Irish counterparts (the claim made) can so regularly underperform against those lesser players. Coaching? Well a good coach 'wins' and a bad one 'loses' so it can't really be scientifically evaluated satisfactorily. The players are the ones on the field doing the business. You can't blame Schmidt for Leinster's success any more than you can blame Cheika - the players are the constant.

Not to worry - it's just a lingering question in my mind.

C'mon Fly you are more clever than that - Our Regions are pretty weak and you could put Sexton at OutHalf for the Ospreys and he'd find life difficult, similarly if you put SOB in the O's back row he would be less effective. When you take the 22 welsh gems and put them together then you have something completely different. Conversley, there are Irish posters on here who maintain that the Irish players often fail to bring their provincial form to the international scene as in October (Aus game aside)

Both sets of fans are confident as they were in October - Let's wait and see if the Dragon fires and serves up some warm Guinness for the Dubliners come Sunday or will the little welsh be sent packing

mankiaow wrote:This time last year a number of people were asking whether the 6n should be sacrificed in preparation for the WC. I believe it was. I think Kidney was trying to introduce a new kind of high pressure high tempo game, giving players licence to try things. Typically Ireland were either getting ahead or parity by half time and attempting to blitz teams early in the second half. The result was some patchy performances and it seemed to gel against England. The Warm-ups were used to gave the whole squad a run out. The WC was heading in the right direction but for one game, which happened to be the big one. Gatland had been watching and nullified a lot of the Irish tactics. There was a fair bit of foot-shooting as well by Ireland.

The shackles are off now for Kidney. He can put out, what he considers to be. his best side and have a real go at this years 6n. He has players coming off great performances in the HC and I believe we will see something good this year, and some consistency.

Th only team who weren't experimentating with their team and squad last six nations was England. The build up to the RWC was the same for all sides.

Wales found a successfully and attractive way to play the game. Ireland retired to Munster type form to beat the Aussies but lose to Wales.

You should be hoping that Ireland will play more like modern Munster and Ulster and the last two years of Leinster if they want to do well. Playing the way they did in the RWC per tournament and 2011 6N won't bode well for them.

Do you think Declan Kidney is the type of man to see his strengths or to rely on type and form..???

TycroesOsprey wrote:Flyn Im chilled and yes opinions do disagree. Im saeriously not wumming I have no gripe with the Irish. I am being straight about why I think Wales are better at the moment and why I think they will win. I am also giving reasons for that.

By long kicking game from hand, Neither Sexton or O Gara can get the length from hand that Priestland or Hook can. Thats an important part of the Welsh game plan. Were not going to kick for touch because of Irelands strength at the linel. Yes Kerney does have a good boot on him but he isnt going to be at first reciever for the majority of the match. Wales kick long and rely on their rush defence to close the space down.

As for the Backrows, the Irish backrow is powerful and talented but, It is slower than the welsh back row which is one of the reasons they got isolated and turned over in the RWC. With SOB at 7 they lack a genuine openside which is imo a tactical error in the modern game. SOB for all his talent does not have the scavenger play that Warburton does and if you look at the top sides they all employ a genuine openside becayuse turnover ball is vital.

I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Now I havent thrown any "immature" insults out there I have been frank in my assessment but I have restricted it to rugby reasons. I am yet to hear an Irish fan answer with any rugby reasons why Ireland are better than they were last year?

You are wasting your time with the Irish on that one Ty. NONE of them can see it. Everyone outside Ireland - can. ALL the RWC Semi-Finalists had a scavaging 7. Ah sure tis just a coincidence lids. Me bollix.

RubyGuby wrote:
C'mon Fly you are more clever than that - Our Regions are pretty weak and you could put Sexton at OutHalf for the Ospreys and he'd find life difficult, similarly if you put SOB in the O's back row he would be less effective. When you take the 22 welsh gems and put them together then you have something completely different. Conversley, there are Irish posters on here who maintain that the Irish players often fail to bring their provincial form to the international scene as in October (Aus game aside)

There you go. Case proven. Form is frustrating to decipher but players remain world class if they prove themselves so. Irish players might have different attributes to their Welsh neighbours but less class? No.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:
I did watch both semifinals of course. Ireland werent in either

Lol yeah I obviously meant the QF,anyway the main difference I feel will be Sexton at OH instead of RoG,this means we have both a better defender (against Italy in the WC he stopped Castrogiovanni and drove him backwards 5 metres from his own tryline) and attacker at 10,his pace and strength with ball in hand will suck in your backrow and mean you can't just rush up in defence as he is very capable of looping around a rushing defence to create an overlap.If he sorts out his kicking yips for Ireland and I have no reason to think he won't then Sexton is where I see the big difference in what Ireland can bring to the table.
On a related note I think if Priestland is out you will struggle,especially if Hook plays 10 he's a very good centre but I've yet to see him play well at 10 for Wales.

You didn't hear Shaggy (that is Leinster man Shane Horgan) on the subject last night on Off the Ball. When asked about Ireland's attack (or lack of) in the world cup, he said that the best attacking performance by Ireland was against Italy in the world cup.

None of them had any complaints about the defence.

Yawn,go wum somewhere else I'm not gonna hijack this thread with another RoG v Sexton debate I'll just leave you with the usual question.When was the last time Ireland won a match against a top 8 nation with RoG starting at 10?

I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Errm, Priestland is good, but not in the same class as Sexton. Sure we'll see on Sunday. Sexton is the next Lions Outhalf. Done-deal. Maybe even Captain.

London Evening Standard
Julian Bennetts
31 Jan 2012

"And, as Warburton is well aware, his profile is only going to increase if Warren Gatland's side win the Six Nations. He is careful not to lob any verbal grenades but Wales - who kick off their challenge against Ireland in Dublin on Sunday - must be the team to beat in this year of change."

There's a perceptive fella for you

Warburton is a far superior 7 than SOB. No discussion. But Ferris & Heaslip have the other 2.

Gibson wrote:I think there are 3 million or so welsh who would disagree over Sexton. Thats not me saying he is rubbish he clearly isnt but I would rather Priestland in my team than him.

Errm, Priestland is good, but not in the same class as Sexton. Sure we'll see on Sunday. Sexton is the next Lions Outhalf. Done-deal. Maybe even Captain.

10 maybe - certainly in the sqaud. Captain ? No, backs rarely get picked as 10 - BOD being an exception. It will be a 1-8 - possibly Sam if he has a good world cup.

Kidney has been trying to increase the playing pool for Ireland since he took over as O'Sullivan had neglected it for far too long. The RWC came too soon for him as he still was tinkering with changes right up to the last minute such as Murray in for TOL. He also took big risks with key guys just back from injury like Ferris and Kearney.

The playing pool is now sufficiently deep and match fit to expect them to perform as a team in this year's championship. Last year it looked as though some players held back with an eye on 'future' events whereas this time round they will have to be 100% committed game by game. What the HEC does is instill confidence in understudy players itching for a chance to test themselves at higher level, except that this time Kidney will not hesitate to pick them if his first choice is underperforming.

Hopefully Ireland will treat each game as if it was the Grand Slam decider.

Ferris yes, not so sure about Heaslip, this season looking at him and Faletau - they are level.

Gibson wrote:Warburton is a far superior 7 than SOB. No discussion. But Ferris & Heaslip have the other 2.

They didnt in New Zealand. They were compeltely nullified.

Gibson wrote:Warburton is a far superior 7 than SOB. No discussion. But Ferris & Heaslip have the other 2.

Grand Master "G" - Enlighten me to what happened to the "other" 2 in the last game? Was it a one off?, a misjudgement by the much vaunted Irish back row 'cos from what I saw Heaslip et al were largely anonomous and in the poor game in Cardiff they were very much the same. I think we all know that individually they are world class players but on the past 2 occasions against Wales they have genuinely been found wanting - What's that all about?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:
I did watch both semifinals of course. Ireland werent in either

Lol yeah I obviously meant the QF,anyway the main difference I feel will be Sexton at OH instead of RoG,this means we have both a better defender (against Italy in the WC he stopped Castrogiovanni and drove him backwards 5 metres from his own tryline) and attacker at 10,his pace and strength with ball in hand will suck in your backrow and mean you can't just rush up in defence as he is very capable of looping around a rushing defence to create an overlap.If he sorts out his kicking yips for Ireland and I have no reason to think he won't then Sexton is where I see the big difference in what Ireland can bring to the table.
On a related note I think if Priestland is out you will struggle,especially if Hook plays 10 he's a very good centre but I've yet to see him play well at 10 for Wales.

You didn't hear Shaggy (that is Leinster man Shane Horgan) on the subject last night on Off the Ball. When asked about Ireland's attack (or lack of) in the world cup, he said that the best attacking performance by Ireland was against Italy in the world cup.

None of them had any complaints about the defence.

Yawn,go wum somewhere else I'm not gonna hijack this thread with another RoG v Sexton debate I'll just leave you with the usual question.When was the last time Ireland won a match against a top 8 nation with RoG starting at 10?

When did Ireland last win a Grand Slam with ROG starting at 10? When did Ireland last beat South Africa with ROG at 10. When did Hayleys comet last come around when ROG was at 10?