Boxing Without Arum????

After all Golden Boy do seem to put their fighters in with more opponents outside of the stable. And with Di Bella giving many UK fighters a chance to shine, and Goosen willing to throw Ward into the mix, would boxing be better off without Bob Arum? Also, there is Gary Shaw, another promoter who seems stifled by Bob and his monopoly. Thoughts guys? It will be very interesting to see if Bradley becomes another one of Bob's in house fighters. I hope not. Oh, and Frank Warren, are we better off without him too? He is so predictable with his fighters, although he did give us Groves vs Degale. Not a bad lad Frank, i guess.

Boxing would be better if fighters weren't shielded away and kept in house, yes.

Wouldn't make a difference to be honest. Some other promoter would fatten their wallets off another boxer. One has to wonder how much Paq has to be blames seeing as he is a superstar and not beholden on Arum the way lesser fighters are to their promoters.

What I think he mean sif there was a promoter who took over Arums stable of fighters and did things a different way would it be better?

Well, yeah I suppose, but then again, sometimes it's best off going with the devil you know... Couldn't be much worse than what Arum is doing at the moment, he really is making a mockery of it all.

Warren's stable has been shrinking at a fair old rate in recent years, so it's hardly surprising that he's been forced to get a little braver with his matchmaking. Could have done with a similar exodus a few years back to force his hand in to making Hatton-Witter, but alas, it wasn't meant to be.

As for Arum, well I'm far from his biggest fan - but as I said regarding Cleverly's dramatically premature rise to 'world champion' status, Arum is hardly alone in the less desirable traits he displays. He's a businessman, after all. More than anything, he's a product of a long-standing problem which has plagued the sport for decades, rather than the arch criminal and route of all evil which some paint him as.

He's disappointed us all with the way he's kept Pacquiao under strictly Top Rank wraps in recent times. But on the other side of the coin, he's given us Duran-Leonard, Hagler-Hearns, Jones-Toney etc. His influence certainly hasn't been entirely pernicious.

If it weren't Arum, it would simply be somebody else frustrating us with a safety-first approach to managing his biggest money making asset, or contradicting himself on the subject of upcoming bouts.

Interesting point Azania. Is Pac Mans loyalty blinded by the greed of Arum? Is these little trips old Bob make to the Philippines simply an opportunity for him to look beholden to his fighter? Sometimes i worry the little donkey puncher has forgotten that he is the star, and without him Arum's stock is drastically lowered.

Yes he did give us those fights Chris, but how long is he going to dine out on them?

And Frank, well, with the rise of Hearn i see Franks days being a little more numbered. Losing Brook was a big problem, and heightened the fact that he no longer has such a firm grip on British boxing. And with the rise of Hatton as a promoter he could be on his way out. Remember Maloney?

The problem with criticising Arum is assuming any of the others are any better and I don't believe for a minute they are, easy to sit in admiration at the way Eddie Hearn works but he is a young up and coming promoter without a stable of superstars and his TV deals well entrenched, as such he has no choice but to match his fighters well to guarantee future TV deals and the kind of buzz that will encourage fighters to sign for him.

Can anyone say for certain that if any promoter was given a guy who shifts 30,000 tickets against anyone and does 1m+ PPV buys every time they lace them up they would handle them any different to how Arum has handled Manny. Most promoters will milk fighters for as long as they can, if Ricky and his fans were willing to accept it Frank would have him defending his WBU belt at the MEN to this very day.

But Ricky didn't accept it, and shortened his career, because he knew it was not what the public wanted. Arum is about 90, it's time he put his fighters in now, he made his money, he should be happy to secure his legacy as a promoter. If he continues what he's done in the last 5 years over the next 5 years then people will forget the earlier good work. Make us Pac vs Mayweather Arum, if you don't you'll be blamed and scorned by the public.

Most promoters would do what Arum does they just don't have the stable. GBP are only so desperate to make the Floyd fight because they get a cut without doing very much and they get the big platform for some of there stars to perform. I'm not convinced if the shoe was on the other foot GBP would be so keen to make the fight.

Frank is still number 1 in Britain. Hearn has done nothing much really. He got Barker a shot at Martinez but Martinez has no one to fight. He has done nothing for Froch yet Big Mick got Froch to where he was. The fat man was quite right not to sign the Sky contract that Matchroom, Maloney, Warren and Hatton signed aren't good for the sport.

Davide am not sure how much he cares to be honest, he is a Hall of Fame promoter and on the back of the fights Chris has listed and many more beside his place in the history of the sport is absolutely assured. The thing to remember with the Manny Floyd situation is both do 1.5m buys on PPV and pay their opponents about 20%, if they fight and do 2.5m buys on a 50-50 basis there really ain't that great a difference, for as long as this is the case Arum ain't going to bust a gut to make the fight, particularly as deep down he knows Manny losing is a genuine and real possibility.

True Rowley, firm points, but Manny could lose in another fight right? I mean JMM showed us that, and he looked less than peak against Shane.

I just think that as a reward for all the hype and bravado we should get this fight, and get it when they still have the skills. I mean both fighters are approaching the end of their careers.

Bob Arum has done so much for boxing, and as a business man is gifted, but i feel a resentment that i think many fans feel. Screw the figures and make the fight i say, just this once. Boxing will be better when he retires i think.

Do tend to agree Davide, have said before the failure of this fight to happen shames everyone involved and the sport in general, it is a farce pure and simple. To be honest have read a lot of interviews with Arum lately and he comes across as so bitter, seems that ever since Golden Boy become promoter of choice for HBO he is like a lover scorned, was a different story when he was pet promoter and nobody else could get a look in, almost get the impression his whole attitude at the minute is sticking two fingers up at the sport.

I know they are in house fights but Arum is making a couple of good fights for this year already. Gamboa vs Rios is supposedly close to being finalised. Ramos vs Rigondeaux in a few weeks should be good. Donaire vs Vazquez Jnr with the winner to face Jorge Arce or Nishioka later in the year has me pretty excited.

It's not like GBP are making fights with the best fighting the best.

Why isn't Donaire facing Arce or Nishioka anyway? No offence to Vazquez Jnr but didn't he get blasted away by Arce last time out?

Here here Rowley, there is more than a whiff of being bitter from Bob. It is his right to be cranky as he is old but he is so outspoken when he doesn't need to be.

Saying Mayweather wont pay what Canelo wants, why would he say that? To annoy GBP and for no other reason. Well Bob, you told us Pac wasn't going to fight Floyd and now you want to butt in on who he does fight May 5th? Believe me, defending GBP or Floyd is not something i like to do, but even i couldn't believe that one. He is rocking the boat again, at a time when it seemed that boats were no longer being rocked between camps. Bob is coming off as a sore loser and he hasn't lost!

GBP make better fights i think. I mean Amir went to someones backyard and fought with no rematch clause in place. Golden Boy can't be accused of getting their hooks into their golden fighters half as much as Arum does. And i have plenty to say that isn't necessarily nice about GBP, but facts are facts.

Donaire is being bled like Pac, fact. Look at his record, and remind me i said this in 12 months. Donaire will spend a year being bled before a whiff of genuine world class is seen in the opposite corner.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Why isn't Donaire facing Arce or Nishioka anyway? No offence to Vazquez Jnr but didn't he get blasted away by Arce last time out?

It's his first fight at super bantamweight so probably to ease him in. Vazquez isn't a bad fighter he had no amateur career so is still learning he just ran out of gas against Arce because he was well ahead on the cards.

davidemore wrote:Here here Rowley, there is more than a whiff of being bitter from Bob. It is his right to be cranky as he is old but he is so outspoken when he doesn't need to be.

Saying Mayweather wont pay what Canelo wants, why would he say that? To annoy GBP and for no other reason. Well Bob, you told us Pac wasn't going to fight Floyd and now you want to butt in on who he does fight May 5th? Believe me, defending GBP or Floyd is not something i like to do, but even i couldn't believe that one. He is rocking the boat again, at a time when it seemed that boats were no longer being rocked between camps. Bob is coming off as a sore loser and he hasn't lost!

GBP make better fights i think. I mean Amir went to someones backyard and fought with no rematch clause in place. Golden Boy can't be accused of getting their hooks into their golden fighters half as much as Arum does. And i have plenty to say that isn't necessarily nice about GBP, but facts are facts.

Not sure Id agree with you on the last point. GBP made a major error with the Khan fight and havent exactly come out in the aftermath smelling of roses. As far as I can see they have basically created a mountain out of a molehill and coerced some weak willed sanctioning body into ordering a rematch to cover the own initial mistake and complacency.

davidemore wrote:Donaire is being bled like Pac, fact. Look at his record, and remind me i said this in 12 months. Donaire will spend a year being bled before a whiff of genuine world class is seen in the opposite corner.

You're right Montiel was pap, same with the undefeated Narvaez and don't get me started with the terrible Darchinyan, utterly disgraceful record if I've ever seen one.

SugarRayRussell wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Why isn't Donaire facing Arce or Nishioka anyway? No offence to Vazquez Jnr but didn't he get blasted away by Arce last time out?

It's his first fight at super bantamweight so probably to ease him in. Vazquez isn't a bad fighter he had no amateur career so is still learning he just ran out of gas against Arce because he was well ahead on the cards.

I guess, it's just I'd rather have seen Donaire move up to a fight that had a few question marks around it I guess considering he's generally up there at No. 3 or No. 4 in most peoples P4P lists, like taking on Nishioka. I saw the Arce Vazquez fight, but to be fair I can't remember it all that well now, was a cracking fight if I rememebr correctly, Arce knocked him out, that's all I remember properly seem to remember him just completely wearing him down and thought it was rather close though.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

davidemore wrote:Donaire is being bled like Pac, fact. Look at his record, and remind me i said this in 12 months. Donaire will spend a year being bled before a whiff of genuine world class is seen in the opposite corner.

You're right Montiel was pap, same with the undefeated Narvaez and don't get me started with the terrible Darchinyan, utterly disgraceful record if I've ever seen one.

Narvaez is a very good fighter but like Hernan Marquez, Donaire was just far to big for him to really have a go at. Marquez did give it more of a go than Narvaez mind you but that shows in the results they had.

SugarRayRussell wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

davidemore wrote:Donaire is being bled like Pac, fact. Look at his record, and remind me i said this in 12 months. Donaire will spend a year being bled before a whiff of genuine world class is seen in the opposite corner.

You're right Montiel was pap, same with the undefeated Narvaez and don't get me started with the terrible Darchinyan, utterly disgraceful record if I've ever seen one.

Narvaez is a very good fighter but like Hernan Marquez, Donaire was just far to big for him to really have a go at. Marquez did give it more of a go than Narvaez mind you but that shows in the results they had.

I was being sarcastic, I rate all 3 fighters that I mentioned all of them exceptionally high class operators, agree that Narvaez was just too small to make it competetive, not Donaire's fault.

I'm off lads, see you all tommorow.

Alex i am talking mainly about the coming 12 months. His fight against Navarez was like watching a midget fight Butterbean. Navarez had an ) and a solid defense, but he is not a great fighter by any means. You are impressed by his 0.

Montiel was good, Darchinyan also, but watch Arum cash in.

And with GBP Manos, i am saying i respect the fact they took the fight. How they handled it after was appalling and embarrassing to the sport and the company.

davidemore wrote:Alex i am talking mainly about the coming 12 months. His fight against Navarez was like watching a midget fight Butterbean. Navarez had an ) and a solid defense, but he is not a great fighter by any means. You are impressed by his 0.

Montiel was good, Darchinyan also, but watch Arum cash in.

And with GBP Manos, i am saying i respect the fact they took the fight. How they handled it after was appalling and embarrassing to the sport and the company.

How many times before the Donaire fight had you seen Narvaez?

I saw a fight of his on youtube as a pre fight look, why? I watched him, he is tiny, good defensively, soft punching and very good at moving on the back foot, but not, not aggressive enough.

Why do you ask sugar?

You seemed to be very down on him. At his natural weight he is a very good fighter. Donaire was just far to big for the guy.

davidemore wrote:Alex i am talking mainly about the coming 12 months. His fight against Navarez was like watching a midget fight Butterbean. Navarez had an ) and a solid defense, but he is not a great fighter by any means. You are impressed by his 0.

Montiel was good, Darchinyan also, but watch Arum cash in.

And with GBP Manos, i am saying i respect the fact they took the fight. How they handled it after was appalling and embarrassing to the sport and the company.

Id say fair play to them for fighting it Washington D.C but to be honest this was supposed to be a routine defence for Khan while bigger fights waited. It wasnt seen as big threat - hence no rematch clause.

Sugar i agree, but someone was calling it a good win when it was an average win.

Me too Manos, big risk for GBP and Amir, one they didn't need to take as he makes them so much money in England and good money in Vegas. Same can't be said for Arum and fighters like Lopez. And i know Bradley was out the ring for a year but that defense was horrendous, something a little better would have been reasonable on such a bill.

You know I've always thought that people are naive when it comes to this sort of thing....

Power corrupts..absolute power corrupts absolutely etc.....

We'll get rid of Gaddafi and everything will be ok.....we'll get rid of Hussein and everything will be ok......Mugabi...Kim etc....

Well it won't!!

If I was Arum my first interest is in making money for me and my charge..

Business is all about risk and reward...The lower the risk the better...

Why do you think Warren goes down the WBo route because he can get garbage opponents for his champions....King, Arum all the same..look at Mickey Duff...

Honey vs 140 Bumphus...vs 140 Hatcher...vs journeyman Vaca (oops)..

Arum has been savvy enough to get to the top...But if the King dies hey it'll be long live the King..

No Boxing wouldn't be better.....we just like having someone to hate..

davidemore wrote:Sugar i agree, but someone was calling it a good win when it was an average win.

Me too Manos, big risk for GBP and Amir, one they didn't need to take as he makes them so much money in England and good money in Vegas. Same can't be said for Arum and fighters like Lopez. And i know Bradley was out the ring for a year but that defense was horrendous, something a little better would have been reasonable on such a bill.

I think the problem with Peterson might have been he wouldnt have been a big enough draw for Vegas. I dont think Khan intends on returning to the UK in the near future so having it in Washington may have made the best business sense in terms of gate?

When the fight was announced my reaction was lukewarm. Credible enough fight, but not really inspiring. I envisaged a fairly routine defence for Khan. Couldnt really have been more wrong. The Pacquiao/Marquez fight didnt cause half as much uproar.

Good point Manos but when it was announced i thought, ooh, someone durable who works the body well, this type of fight is much different than that of Zab or Maidana. I actually respected and got very excited about Peterson, as he has something a little well, throwback to his character, he is very durable a great fight clouded by terrible post fight Amir crap.

TRUSS great post! Your skills of expression are appreciated.

Manos how can boxing move forward post Bob? He has to retire sometime right? And this isn't North Korea we are talking about here ,so hopefully nepotism doesn't creep in when he does.

I understand reducing North Korea's government problems to nepotism is well, not accurate, lol. I used to live in South Korea and have been to the DMZ, just to add.

davidemore wrote:Good point Manos but when it was announced i thought, ooh, someone durable who works the body well, this type of fight is much different than that of Zab or Maidana. I actually respected and got very excited about Peterson, as he has something a little well, throwback to his character, he is very durable a great fight clouded by terrible post fight Amir crap.

TRUSS great post! Your skills of expression are appreciated.

Manos how can boxing move forward post Bob? He has to retire sometime right? And this isn't North Korea we are talking about here ,so hopefully nepotism doesn't creep in when he does.

I understand reducing North Korea's government problems to nepotism is well, not accurate, lol. I used to live in South Korea and have been to the DMZ, just to add.

Im not too sure how Top Rank operates really. Is their an heir aparant for when Arum calls it a day? Or will his fighters just go elsewhere? Perhaps like King he will just gradualy wind down and become less influential over time. Id have to echo what others say though insofar as when he does retire, there will probably be others there to pick up the lefotvers. GBP seem to be better at dealing with other promoters, but Im not totally convinced on them as they still have guys like JCC who is being kept away from anyone dangerous in the true meaning of padded. The problem really is that promoters are not neccessarily out to please the fans. Their job is to make money for themselves and their fighters and to protect and manage their assets to a large degree. It often going to be in conflict with what the fans want but as is often the case with the successful promoters - you have to ask yourself, if you were in their shoes would you really be doing a whole lot differently?

Good points Manos.

Well, i think i would do something differently, and that's acknowledge the fans more. He speaks on behalf of the fans, mainly Pac fans but but never to them. It angers me. If the fans buck and leave there goes Arum's stranglehold. And if they kick up on the forums and in the media too, then bam! Arum is licking some wounds. Without fans Arum doesn't have a sell, why? Because there is no one to sell it too.

I just wish old Bob would remember that a little more. Not to say a new promoter would. But, Arum cannot go forever and i think Top Rank is a company of executives, so the direction could change. A change in policy would be good i think.