Another what if scenario....Tyson vs Buster

First topic message reminder :

This is not a discussion about whether t was a long count or not - that has been done to death already.

What I want to know is, what if the referee had made a quicker, recognised count and counted Buster out of the contest? What do you think would have happened to Tysons and Douglas' careers post fight?

Would Mike have continued with that air of invincibility and got through his problems to continue to dominate?

Let's hear your thoughts....

Quite so Ghosty.....

I heard JFk was a homosexual...read it somewhere but won't declare my sources...

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:One situation you can prove the other you can't.

If it was proven to be true which considering it's now 2012 seems highly unlikely therefore Jones should get the flack and not Holyfield.

Again I never said it was true. From my reading up on the case though there is alot to be suspicious about. I dont know if its true or not. But Im suspicious. And I believe my suspicions are justified given what is known. I would never go as far as saying he was guilty though.

In such situations I tend to only deal in factual evidence rather than merely circumstantial.

The evidence Im dealing with is factual.

So factual nothings come from it, it's all hearsay and circumstantial.

"From my reading up on the cas there is a lot to be SUSPICIOUS about"

Dear oh dear what a jerk..

manos de piedra wrote:

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We can use that excuse for any sportsmen who has failed a drugs test but doesn't change it being complete BS, it was Jones' responsibility to be clean and he wasn't.

It depends on the facts on the case.

No it doesn't.

Holyfield is innocent until proven guilty. Do you accept or reject this concept?

RJJ has been proven guilty with mitigating circumstances.

The "mitigating circumstances" in question would not necessarily lead to any shortening of ban length. Please read the literature - I'm still involved in the periphery of the sports scene - and its made clear to me, on a regular basis - that it is my responsibility to ensure I stay clean.

Apparently, if I could get as "big" as RJJ - that rule would no longer apply.

Im sorry but in my opinion the severity of the crime depends on the facts of the case. Whether the punishmnet carries the same sentance is not important in this regard. Rio Ferdinand was banned for 8/9 months for missing a scheduled drug test that he forgot about. He took the test a few days later and passed but was still banned. No Im afraid, for my sins, that I do not consider this offence to be on a par with someone who was found guilty of being a willing participant in steroid abuse.

I have said along that Holyfield is entitled to be innocent until proven guilty. I have merely said there is enough evidence - beyond circumstantial in my opinion, to raise suspicions as to whether he was part of one of these outlawed doping programs.

No-one is accusing RJJ's crime as being on a par with, say, Gatlin's, or Marion Jones'.

HOWEVER - Holyfield is innocent (at the moment)

As to the evidence - does it sound any more convincing than that which the Mirror, Express, Daily Mail and Sun produced in the aftermath of Jo Yeates murder with regards to Christopher Jeffries? They had former pupils testimony (lies and fakes), neighbours (the same) - and a host of other such suggestive and inflammatory statements - not much weaker than the evidence against Holyfield. The only trouble being that it was all lies.

If Holyfield fails a test, or admits to steroid abuse, or is called before a jury and his use proven in court - I will retract all statements and his crime will be worse than Jones.

However - as I said before - there can be smoke without fire - especially for the last 10 years of tabloid journalism.

For sports illustrated to be on the case is unreal - given that they supported Lance Armstrong throughout the same period (I appreciate they've stabbed him in the back now).

Oxy...This guy is slandering Holyfield in a most despicable and cowardly manner!!!

people may read this and think this seedy..low rent poster is right!!

Come on!!!.....Sure I wum now and again but slandering a character with no evidence..

It's blatantly wrong!!!!

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

oxring wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We can use that excuse for any sportsmen who has failed a drugs test but doesn't change it being complete BS, it was Jones' responsibility to be clean and he wasn't.

It depends on the facts on the case.

No it doesn't.

Holyfield is innocent until proven guilty. Do you accept or reject this concept?

RJJ has been proven guilty with mitigating circumstances.

The "mitigating circumstances" in question would not necessarily lead to any shortening of ban length. Please read the literature - I'm still involved in the periphery of the sports scene - and its made clear to me, on a regular basis - that it is my responsibility to ensure I stay clean.

Apparently, if I could get as "big" as RJJ - that rule would no longer apply.

Im sorry but in my opinion the severity of the crime depends on the facts of the case. Whether the punishmnet carries the same sentance is not important in this regard. Rio Ferdinand was banned for 8/9 months for missing a scheduled drug test that he forgot about. He took the test a few days later and passed but was still banned. No Im afraid, for my sins, that I do not consider this offence to be on a par with someone who was found guilty of being a willing participant in steroid abuse.

I have said along that Holyfield is entitled to be innocent until proven guilty. I have merely said there is enough evidence - beyond circumstantial in my opinion, to raise suspicions as to whether he was part of one of these outlawed doping programs.

No-one is accusing RJJ's crime as being on a par with, say, Gatlin's, or Marion Jones'.

HOWEVER - Holyfield is innocent (at the moment)

As to the evidence - does it sound any more convincing than that which the Mirror, Express, Daily Mail and Sun produced in the aftermath of Jo Yeates murder with regards to Christopher Jeffries? They had former pupils testimony (lies and fakes), neighbours (the same) - and a host of other such suggestive and inflammatory statements - not much weaker than the evidence against Holyfield. The only trouble being that it was all lies.

If Holyfield fails a test, or admits to steroid abuse, or is called before a jury and his use proven in court - I will retract all statements and his crime will be worse than Jones.

However - as I said before - there can be smoke without fire - especially for the last 10 years of tabloid journalism.

For sports illustrated to be on the case is unreal - given that they supported Lance Armstrong throughout the same period (I appreciate they've stabbed him in the back now).

Where theres smoke, one is entitled to be suspicious. Ive never said Holyfield was guilty but Im afraid there are facts which suggest he may be. These are more than just unsubstantiated tabloid headlines Im afraid. Its more than just circumstantial or rumour mill as you seem to keep suggesting.

A pharmecy which supplied top athletes with HGH and steroids was raided by federal U.S investegators (not Daily Mail reporters) uncovered files containing Evander Holyfields date of birth, home address and personal phone number. Charges and indictments were brough against members of this pharmecy. Other baseball athletes were uncovered. Prescritions with Holyfields address and phone number were found under the name Evan Fields. Medical conditions which he was diagnosed with including a heart defect were found to be consistent with those that use steroids and HGH.

As I keep repeating, I am not saying this proves Holyfield is guilty. But you are trying to dismiss my suspicions as little more than either an agenda against Holyfield or as being naively founded on some bored Daily Mail writers fantasy. It isnt. Im not one to bandy about slurs or throw senseless accusations. I believe there are genuine and real grounds to be suspicious that go beyond reading tabloids. Im happy to follow the innocent until proven guilty mantra but I also feel entitled to my suspicions based on what I have read about the case.

I'd just like to state that in the last twenty or so years Boxing has never had a more honest GENTLEMAN than Evander Holyfield..

Wonderful, gifted fighter that has shown so much bravery, heart and left everything in the ring...

The wins against Tyson, Bowe and Moorer showed what a great competitior he was and If anybody deserves praise and a great legacy it is him..

To have someone unjustly and without evidence throwing vacuous "Cheating" comments out there about him.. and let's be honest in sport there is nothing worse you can be called..is quite frankly disgraceful.

Basically trashing everything he did by the back door!!

Holyfield certainly doesn't deserve this libellous garbage but he can rest assured he's a hundred times the man who's cowardly chucking the comments out there!!

Scandalous..

I take back the above post!!!

I don't mean to be abusive...Just don't like aspersions being cast at a guy who's given Boxing so much......

god squadder, with children in the double figures by numerous mothers... allegedly he's a notorious tightwad.

Now I don't know if the last part of that is true, it's just rumour, but then i'd say 'honest gentleman' is just rumour as well trussy

Great warrior in the ring, which is all i'm interested in.

No Manos, they are no more than daily mail headlines.

A pharmacy which allegedly supplied top athletes was raided by US federal investigators accompanied by Sports Illustrated reporters. Yes Manos. SI. It was SI who found the "Evan Fields" name and the phone number and subsequently reported it.

As for the Alabama pharmacy - Applied Pharmacy Services - the pharmacist in question received a 4 year sentence for drug dealing earlier this year. In court, Bennett (the pharmacist in question) was proven to have supplied 7 athletes - Shane Carwin (former UFC HW champ), Kurt Angle (WWE), Bob Howard (wrestler), Freeman, Taylor, Newman and Zuccolotto (all bodybuilders). Notice whose name isn't on the list.

A second pharmacy, Signature Pharmacy was raided 1 year later. Last year, the judge through the case out of court for lack of any credible evidence - although it has gained a re-submission on appeal.

So that's the case as it stands Manos.

I haven't accused you of having an agenda against Holyfield - bit odd for you to suggest it actually??

It is my belief that you have been misled as to the full and complete details of the case - which, whilst it doesn't exonerate Evander - it doesn't condemn him either.

By consensus he's an honest gentleman!!!

Apparently nobody wants to get sued by offering the other label!!

Better to do it by other cowardly means..it seems!!

A good Boxer is like a good Lady...and as such needs his/her honor upheld by true Gentlemen!!

In fairness to Evander - when you've more children than your average tomcat - and the IRS breathing down your neck for every TV appearance you make - you're going to appear a bit tight.

A cad wouldn't have acknowledged the bar stewards as his. I mean bar stewards in its literal sense, obviously.

He's religious...He doesn't believe in contraception or abortion..

Another reason he's a gentleman!!

oxring wrote:No Manos, they are no more than daily mail headlines.

A pharmacy which allegedly supplied top athletes was raided by US federal investigators accompanied by Sports Illustrated reporters. Yes Manos. SI. It was SI who found the "Evan Fields" name and the phone number and subsequently reported it.

As for the Alabama pharmacy - Applied Pharmacy Services - the pharmacist in question received a 4 year sentence for drug dealing earlier this year. In court, Bennett (the pharmacist in question) was proven to have supplied 7 athletes - Shane Carwin (former UFC HW champ), Kurt Angle (WWE), Bob Howard (wrestler), Freeman, Taylor, Newman and Zuccolotto (all bodybuilders). Notice whose name isn't on the list.

A second pharmacy, Signature Pharmacy was raided 1 year later. Last year, the judge through the case out of court for lack of any credible evidence - although it has gained a re-submission on appeal.

So that's the case as it stands Manos.

I haven't accused you of having an agenda against Holyfield - bit odd for you to suggest it actually??

It is my belief that you have been misled as to the full and complete details of the case - which, whilst it doesn't exonerate Evander - it doesn't condemn him either.

As the case stands I think its highly suspicious that Holyfield has his personal details on file in a pharmacy thats convicted of supplying illegal steroids and HGH. Holyfield doesnt deny it by the way. He said his details were on file because he was ordering medication for his father. This was becaue when they rang the number on file, he answered the phone.

I maintain the case along with Holyfields medical condition go beyond circumstantial evidence or tabloid rumours. If you disagree, fair enough. We will agree to disagree.

Do love it when hearsay is taken to be gospel.

A redaction - before we wander into libel territory.

1. Evander categorically denies any use of performance enhancing drugs, now or at any stage of his career.
2. He admits that his details were with the Alabama pharmacy as that was where his sister would buy the meds.

As for the personal details being on file - it means sweet F. A. Selling illegal steroids was by no means this pharmacy's only line of work - they appeared a legitimate business AND - in prosecution proceedings THUS FAR - Holyfield has NOT been implicated (but only so far - there are still more people waiting to be tried)

3. You implied that steroids could underlie his heart condition. As far as we know - they probably couldn't. After the Moorer fight - Holyfield was found to have an atrial septal defect (commonly found incidentally, present in about 10-20% of adults) and a hypertrophic left ventricle.

Whilst the left ventricular hypertrophy could be caused by exogenous administration of human growth hormone it can ALSO be caused by high level training in association with the genetic phenotype. IE - it can and indeed, likely will, occur incidentally.

HE DID NOT HAVE A HEART ATTACK. A heart attack occurs when a focal region of cardiac tissue loses its perfusion, most commonly due to pre-existing coronary artery disease and rupture and thrombosis of an intra-luminal plaque. This is highly associated with steroid use and abuse. THIS WAS NOT WHAT OCCURRED.

Other than that - we can indeed agree to disagree.

Holyfield was taken to hospital after the Moorer fight I believe and diagnosed with a heart condition. Qualified medical experts, without accusing Holyfield, also stated for the record that the condition was consistent with HGH use. Not that HGH could be the only cause, but that it was an associated cause.

Look Im not saying Holyfield is guilty. Im defending my position that I belive there are valid grounds to be suspicious. Having your personal records in two pharmacies that were investigated for supplying illegal steroids to athletes and being diagnosed with a heart condition that HGH is an associated cause with are valid reasons to be suspicious. I will never say he is guilty until proven so, but I will defend my belief that there are genuine reasons to be suspicious however much people want to label them as rumours or hearsay. There is factual evidence there. There is a difference between holding suspicions or being uneasy of mind and outright accusation or belief in guilt but these seem to lost on some people here. I think there are valid ground to be suspicious - no more, no less.

Manos - I have taken some time to explain the precise details of the "heart condition"

Its an atrial septal defect and a hypertrophic left ventricle.

HCM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy

Genetic, autosomal dominant, associated in high prevalence in athletes.

I would appreciate it if you could appear to accord my opinion a bit more respect - its not as though I haven't any experience in this matter.

Iv had a Fontan and 2 shunts Oxy

Well Ive taken my source from a medical opinion who examined Holyfield:

"Dr. Margaret Goodman, now the chief ringside physician for the Nevada State Athletic Commission, told the SI reporters that back in 1994, when Holyfield evinced evidence of a heart defect follwing his loss to Michael Moorer, commission doctors believed the malady to be consistent with HGH use, but since Holyfield denied having used the substance they could not pursue the theory".

Whilst I appreciate we have to accept Holy is innocent on the grounds that he has never been found guilty or failed a test does not mean people are not able to interpret the evidence available and come to a different conclusion. The Acourt brothers have never been proven guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, does not mean they didn't do it, nor does it mean I am out of order suggesting that.

Where does it end???

What is compelling evidence???

What happened to innocent till proven guilty??

In your World you can blacken any name by innuendo..

Some of us have higher values.......and thank God for that!!

for a 'serious thread', the posturing on here has given me more chuckles since waingro informed us wlad was vitali's brother.

obviously been a long week

rowley wrote:Whilst I appreciate we have to accept Holy is innocent on the grounds that he has never been found guilty or failed a test does not mean people are not able to interpret the evidence available and come to a different conclusion. The Acourt brothers have never been proven guilty of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, does not mean they didn't do it, nor does it mean I am out of order suggesting that.

I agree. Thats what suspicion is. Suspecting something without proof. If proof was required to entitle suspicion then by definition it would never exist.

Im not even saying Holyfield is guilty. But I am saying there are real and valid grounds to be suspicious. My intent is not to tun this into a "prove Holyfield is guilty!" thread because Im the first to admit I cant. But from what I have read about the case and peiced together I feel I cannot easily rule out the possibility he used HGH or steroids. Hence my suspicion. Just like Im suspicious that the likes of Johnson, Attel or Carnera may have been involved in rigged fights, that Liston may not have been legtimately knocked out by Ali, that Gatti may not have killed himslf etc I cant provide proof but I remain suspicious nonetheless.

Anyway, Im off to enjoy the weekend. Have a good one all.

You'll have to come to the Oyster Milky if you like male posturing...

Must admit watching someone basically going round the houses calling someone a cheat... and then watching him pathetically try to squirm his way out is in it's way funny!!

and sad!!

"Consistent with a hgh user"

Well that's proof..let's convict him!!

You should try using elaborate language sometimes Truss, lets you get away with all sorts. In all probability Lance Armstrong was a steroid user, with him the probability is very simple and ridiculous he's not european, that is where the doubts arise about him. In all probability either of the pharmacys in question would have named and shamed Holyfield were he one of there 'clients'.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:"Consistent with a hgh user"

Well that's proof..let's convict him!!

WHose saying its proof? Are you having another thick day?

Although this topic is fascinating, Oxring has provided a comprehensive factual account of the situation. You have all given your views and beliefs of what you think happened.

There is nothing really left to discuss on the matter and it has veered wildly off topic.

It has also started to get into the personal abuse territory. It stops now.

Either discuss the subject matter or the thread gets locked. No more insults.

Your previous statement, azania, was libellous and will be removed, shortly.

Final few sentences.

1) Whilst I wouldn't claim to be as qualified as the chief Medical Officer for the Nevada State Commission, I have had a little bit of medical experience...
2) She wasn't the doctor who treated Holyfield. In fact, she had sweet Fanny Adams to do with his treatment or recuperation.

Be suspicious all you like. Frankly - once exams die down, I'll probably repost some of this as a new article - not as a discussion piece, but more to actually inform the world of the accurate state of play. Rather than allow ill-informed innuendo to continue to prosper.

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is a genetic condition, autosomal dominantly inherited, associated with elite athletes. It is also associated with HGH use. Either factor applies equally well to Holyfield.

I'm out. Revision calls and a miserable weekend beckons. Have a good one, all.