Mike Ruddock (OBE) in the Frame for next Ireland coach?

Mike is currently coaching Ireland under-20's. He is responsible for tutoring and promoting the plethora of talent pouring forth from our respective Academies - to the full squad. He is doing a great job.

He has form on the Big Stage. Won the SLAM in his 1st year with Wales. Just like Kidney with Ireland. But, as he has a hands-on handle, on the best talent coming through, it would seem that the man would have the edge on any outsider replacing Kidney. Who will be replaced in 2 years. Please Allah.


So. What do Irish (or Welsh) posters think? Is he the man on the Inside, to take over? Or,do we need more objectivity and an SH coach to take this squad up to where it belongs?

Could Mike be part of all that?

Unlike Kidney, The IRFU really need to plan ahead.

Thoughts?

Well he's old enough and he made a success of Wales, Ireland might be harder though

I agree Gatts. More than you know.

Has he really done a lot with the Irish u-20's though?

I probably dont know as much on this as i should but we had Jackson, Marshall, Hanrahan, Conway, Gilroy, Macken all in and around the backline at one point and we havent done much. Was he in charge when Rhys Ruddock captained us to the u-20 6N?

Maybe the packs we have produced arent as developed and therein lies the rub but i dont think i would want him as coach in the near future.

A good coach, and would do a lot better than he did with Wales as your Union wouldn't stab him in the back. It seems unlikely for Ireland to get a non-irish coach, unless it is Shmidt.

I would really like to see him exposed to Club rugby first to see how he does.
There are other outstanding candidates that I would have ahead of him.

O'Shea and McCall are coaching the current top two sides in the Aviva Prem. Michael Bradley has put himself in the shop window by (potentially) taking Embra to the HC quarters.

Yep, Mike Ruddock and Conor O'Shea would be the first two names on my personal shortlist for when Kidneys contract expires.

Unless we do really, really well in the 6N Kidneys time is running short. We can only tolerate mediocre rugby for so long if it isn't delivering results.

Morgannwg wrote:A good coach, and would do a lot better than he did with Wales as your Union wouldn't stab him in the back. It seems unlikely for Ireland to get a non-irish coach, unless it is Shmidt.

Oh Morgan. ye really dont know the Irish. We invented stabs-in-the-back. All amongst ourselves.
Our favourite national sport is Begrudgery. We could give lessons to the World on it.

I really think Ruddock should be a big part of the next Senior setup. Feel strongly about it. He knows these kids. Who better than he, to help them make the next step up?

Rava wrote:I would really like to see him exposed to Club rugby first to see how he does.
There are other outstanding candidates that I would have ahead of him.

O'Shea and McCall are coaching the current top two sides in the Aviva Prem. Michael Bradley has put himself in the shop window by (potentially) taking Embra to the HC quarters.

+1.

On the club rugby comment, no, I dont think so. He has nothing to prove there. He won the SLAM.

Needs to stay with Ireland.

The IRFU must ensure it. Or, they made they made the wrong decision in the 1st place - in appointing him. For rugby to progress in our country, they must make the right appointments, with the right long-term objectives in mind. We need continuity in quality of staff. Staff who know their onions. Or leeks - in this case.

Notch wrote:Yep, Mike Ruddock and Conor O'Shea would be the first two names on my personal shortlist for when Kidneys contract expires.

Unless we do really, really well in the 6N Kidneys time is running short. We can only tolerate mediocre rugby for so long if it isn't delivering results.

Was thinking that. Be a good team.

Dont agree about not doing well in the 6-N harming him and us. We just need to perform, lock some more positions down. And come out of it losing more of the dross in the squad. And bringing through the Marshalls, Caves, O'Malleys,Madigans, Toners and Zebos.

He's not the one. He wont do it on his watch. He doesnt have de balls. He will see his time out like a Lamb. His motive is driven by win/loss ratios. We need someone to think way beyond that.

Maybe Ruddock & O' Shea are those Saviours.

I like Ruddock and what he did with Wales. I was disappointed with the Irish u20s last year and thought they should have done better. I don't think he is the next messiah for us though. He has had a relatively ok stint at clubs including leinster for 3 years.

If kidney went tomorrow then maybe Schmidt would be ok but Ireland and foreign coaches are not good bedfellows. I agree that O'Shea is looking good, McLaughlin in Ulster is starting to show some ability but it will depend on their advancement this and in subsequent years. I am a fan of Bradley because he was a hugely intelligent player and is showing what he can do with proper resources at Edinburgh.

At this stage my preference would be O'Shea with possibly Bradley in the frame. I would not be so quick to get rid of dk yet. He has developed a squad of players with a possible replacement in (nearly) every position. A championship win or slam would do nicely and then we can see where we are at

McLaughlin has been involved in the international set-up before of course. Not international head coach material, but a very good Assistant Coach or even just for coaching the tackle/ruck area. Alan Quinlan was full of glowing praise for McLaughs in his last stint with the national team.

But he's not an international head coach really, he's done a very good job with Ulster but it's easier when you get the players week in and week out.

Ireland could certainly do worse. Interestingly all that Wales have achieved since 05 could be considered as having been sparked off by Ruddock to some degree. I see him as the fitting figure of the transition from the dark ages of Welsh rugby (the nineties and early 00's) to the closest yet to the next golden era. Not to mention anything Wales achieve within the next five-ten years and possibly further into the future will also be contributed to this period.

Not to say that Ruddock would have the same effect on Ireland but worth a try imo. Who knows, had he been allowed to spend more time with Wales his success may well have petered out and he'd have eventually experienced the same phenomena Kidney now has to face.

I'm personally not sure Kidney is fairly appreciated based on the Irish views I read. First GS in 60+ years, never outside the top 3 in 6N's and biggest WC win yet v Aus, nothing shabby whatsoever.

Mclaughlin could be involved in the Irish setup. He is proving his technical ability. Bradley is showing what he can do - given the freedom.

DOD,
Dont think Ruddock is the Messiah. Dont think anyone is. But he could be a great part of a well-picked coaching team.

Knowsit17 wrote:Ireland could certainly do worse. Interestingly all that Wales have achieved since 05 could be considered as having been sparked off by Ruddock to some degree. I see him as the fitting figure of the transition from the dark ages of Welsh rugby (the nineties and early 00's) to the closest yet to the next golden era. Not to mention anything Wales achieve within the next five-ten years and possibly further into the future will also be contributed to this period.

Not to say that Ruddock would have the same effect on Ireland but worth a try imo. Who knows, had he been allowed to spend more time with Wales his success may well have petered out and he'd have eventually experienced the same phenomena Kidney now has to face.

I'm personally not sure Kidney is fairly appreciated based on the Irish views I read. First GS in 60+ years, never outside the top 3 in 6N's and biggest WC win yet v Aus, nothing shabby whatsoever.

First GS in 60+ years : He inheirited the team. 1st-season syndrome.
biggest WC win yet v Aus : followed it up with a technical shafting by Gatland


Gatland is far outstrpping him, in developing Wales as a force. That much,is now blatantly obvious to all.

And. I dont rate Gatland at all.

Yes the win against Aus was more down to sheer passion and commitment from the players than any innovative coaching from Kidney.
Pisses me off that they (the players) couldn't replicate the commitment against Wales

Sorry Gibbo, slightly off topic but proves Kidney aint a great motivator.

Actually the contrary seems true based on his career, that he is a great motivator. Most of his successes are down to motivating players to go above and beyond rather than any kind of tactical aptitude. Munster in 06 and 08, Ireland in 09, that win against the Aussies...

Think we made the fatal mistake of looking beyond the quarter-final.

Notch. :dressedorange:

Rav, I just dont think he is technically astute enough for the big boys. Its been proven time and time again at international level.

The Aus game was won by the players.

The rest of it, since the SLAM - has been a downward-spiral.

Back to Ruddock though. Has he really done that well with the U20's?
They came up short last year and they are a very talented bunch. I think Academy coaches should get a bit of credit for the progress there.

The Aus game was won by Les Kiss and his plan to deal with Will Genia.

Hes done ok.

Yes I agree. But Kidney - especially, benefits most from the Academies. They do all the work. The early selection and progression processes, the high level training and education (in Leinster anyway).

Then, Kidney phhooks all that up.

Gibson wrote:Hes done ok.

Yes I agree. But Kidney - especially, benefits most from the Academies. They do all the work. The early selection and progression processes, the high level training and education (in Leinster anyway).

Then, Kidney phhooks all that up.

Little known events: Kidney gave Heislip his first 2 Leinster caps (against Connacht & Ospreys).

Ruddock will be next in line..he's another IRFU yes man. Thought the U-20's played like headless chickens so he's the heir apparant.

O'Shea and McCall will make their names elsewhere and be very successful no doubt.

Jeez lads youse are hard taskmasters. He had nothing to do with winning the GS or beating Aus yada yada, change the record DK is doing just fine

Mike Ruddock is well liked, especially in Leinster. He coaches (or has coached recently) Castleknock College. I think he is also Lansdown's coach. The u20 performance was pure Poopie last season and needs to improve bigtime if he wants to move to the seniors. Mick Bradley is deserving of more credit.

What about Elwood? He's done a cracking job at Connacht...could the old radar boot be the man for the top job?

I don't think Bradley is that popular over the water. Edinburgh are very low in the pro12 and though they are doing really well in the heineken London Irish and racing have been an embarrassment. How in gods name are Irish 2nd seeds!

Don't want to take away too much from him but I think the jury is still out. If Deccie was to quit tomorrow I would want Schmidt as head coach... Sorry Leinster fans.

For Ireland to take it (rugby) to the next level - ie, more consistently 'good' and presenting much more of a persistent threat to SH competition [away as well as home] we have to have a gameplan that breaks the back of the persistent weakness in Irish sides... a unity of two rugby standards that simply don't gel. The oil and water problem, I might call it.

In general (and I know I'll get ramrodded with the exception details) but in general, Munster play a certain brand of rugby and Leinster play a different one. Now for a long time now, those two sides have had the lion's share of team positions, roughly divided equally to take into account the disparate strengths of each Province.

Munster are the South African style forward workhorses, doing things through strength, power, bloodymindedness and almost an intimidation of the opposition. Straightline impact running, up the middle bludgeoning, kicking for position and using the position for forward dominated tries.

Leinster give prominence to their backs. For them to prosper they need speed. Backs play requires speed. Speed of thought, speed of passing, speed of offload, speed of support when a linebreak is made. Straightline running is reserved for areas where it might crash through rather than impact into. In order to play Leinster's game (and Wales do it too) you need Forwards with the lungs and legs to keep the pace and invention going when backs sense something on. If your forwards are trailing behind and don't have the agility to involve themselves in the loose hunt for tries then the Leinster game doesn't work.

And that's where Ireland are - combining two distinctly different approaches to the game and incapable of making it work for more than one or two games a year. Different thoughts are going through players heads and those thoughts are not combining to execute one purpose on play day.

And so to the next coach. Mike Ruddock and Conor O'Shea certainly have their strengths - Mike more than O'Shea, who has yet to really prove himself. Top of the AP is good but it'll need more than one season and one competition to prove his real worth to an International side.

But I think both men are too close to the Irish 'traditional' identity and I think they might change players and perhaps for a season or two get some change out of it, but overall I see them as sticking with the tried and tested traditional strengths of Munster and Leinster (incidently I see Ulster paying a fusion of both but it can be highly erratic and can often look paniced and confused - just like Ireland). So I've always called for a break from these islands for the next coach. I believe a SH coach would look dispassionately at the raw materials available to him, not view anything in a Munster/Ulster/Leinster spirit and give us a unified game that would compete in the world rugby has become - faster and faster, it'll only get faster.

Schmidt then might be my candidate but not necessarily. A better deal would be for him to remain in Leinster and for another youngish Super15 coach with international coaching ambitions to be given the call. I think Ireland's best rugby is SH style, we won't have the constancy of size and bulk to forever meet the challenges faced by South Africa, England, Argentina even Italy and the like. We are bred smaller and faster. Play our natural game.

Agree with a lot of that Secretfly except that there are 4 provinces not 2...see 'Ireland's call' for reference....

Oil and water problem...hmmm..I like that...keep up the good work sir!

roddersm wrote:Agree with a lot of that Secretfly except that there are 4 provinces not 2...see 'Ireland's call' for reference....

Oil and water problem...hmmm..I like that...keep up the good work sir!

I knew someone would pin me on that!!!! I've heard of Connacht..spent quite a lot of time there at one point in my life and yep, well spotted, it's a Province too. But I wasn't going to be patronising to them. They don't get much input on National sides (not my choice) and it's the 'traditional' approach of Ireland inc that I was alluding to.

And thanks Rodders - I put a lot of work into that Oil and Water metaphor

While I dont subscribe to Foreign coach = Good approach I am open to it. Schmidt for example. But I dont think it will work because of the four provinces thing (see I am much more inclusive Fly ) and for any number of other idiosyncracies we have not only the players but the administrators of the game....
Ashton, Gatland etc....

I couldnt see a guy like Schmidt sticking around for that level of abuse.

DOD wrote:While I dont subscribe to Foreign coach = Good approach I am open to it. Schmidt for example. But I dont think it will work because of the four provinces thing (see I am much more inclusive Fly ) and for any number of other idiosyncracies we have not only the players but the administrators of the game....
Ashton, Gatland etc....

I couldnt see a guy like Schmidt sticking around for that level of abuse.

I tend to agree DOD. I'd hate to imagine that period when pressure might be coming to bear on Schmidt to take the job and even at that stage (if he was still producing the results and it looked like a natural option) I think the pressure itself would get to a level that would make him highly uncomfortable. I obviously like him as a coach but I really like him as a person (the bit we see in interview anyway). He just seems so grounded and almost humble in his roll. I think the initial publicity spotlight of Ireland coach potential would chase him away.

But I'm not saying a NH coach is totally wrong for Ireland, I simply think our natural game is better suited to a SH style. And I mean all of us - all 2 provinces...... just joking, I know there's three.

Anyway, I just think it would be an exciting venture for all of us - across the island - Munster, Leinster, Ulster and the other one.... to have a guy come up from the South, having his natural instincts already and looking at our players to give our style a real shake up. We have little to loose. We have players that 'should' keep us mid table in the rankings in any case; meaning I doubt he'd be so out of place that he'd drag us down to 11th or 12th ranking. But the potential would be very exciting if he did gel and unearthed a team we could all be proud of. I think it isn't a gamble, it's a change of focus for five or six years, see what happens.

Connacht I do remember you

DOD wrote:Jeez lads youse are hard taskmasters. He had nothing to do with winning the GS or beating Aus yada yada, change the record DK is doing just fine

Agreed, we live in an era where expectation of consistant results is underlined but still...
There's simply no way you could plausibly prove that Kidney had little or nothing to do with motivating the players towards the GS and the Aus win. You'd have to have been in the changing rooms with them to have any inkling or better yet in the players' heads to be able to say for certain.

It's a tricky and unsavoury business, when one stops being satisfied with any simple measure of team success and becomes more concerned with who to praise more, the players or the coach. The safest and fairest way is to dole out credit to both parties, as well as criticism when merited

Knowsit17 wrote:

DOD wrote:Jeez lads youse are hard taskmasters. He had nothing to do with winning the GS or beating Aus yada yada, change the record DK is doing just fine

Agreed, we live in an era where expectation of consistant results is underlined but still...
There's simply no way you could plausibly prove that Kidney had little or nothing to do with motivating the players towards the GS and the Aus win. You'd have to have been in the changing rooms with them to have any inkling or better yet in the players' heads to be able to say for certain.

It's a tricky and unsavoury business, when one stops being satisfied with any simple measure of team success and becomes more concerned with who to praise more, the players or the coach. The safest and fairest way is to dole out credit to both parties, as well as criticism when merited

Too true Knowsit...I have been myself underwhelmed with his squad for the start of the 6ns but he is also liable to change things quickly (at least I hope he will) if it doesnt go well - if not for the first game at least after the second. My guess is that with the Welsh game being first up he is going to give the team a chance to right what happened in the QF. In reality it is a good benchmark for the coaching staff.

Kidney will be damned by a lot of people, I don't think Leinster followers ever forgave him for what happened when he went there.

He did win our first 6N in 60 years - EOS has plenty of attampts and never even came close. We beat a tri-nations team in the RWC (the only NH teamto do so), some people think that this was won only by passion, true, it was won by passion - and a gameplan. One that was created by Kidney and his coaching team. People on here seem to think that we should have been throwing the ball all over the place....against one of the best counter attacking teams in the game!!! Really!! The plan against Oz was a good one that was well executed by the players.

We were caught by Wales, they had better tactics and less fear. In the build up to that game we had BOD, DOC, Heaslip & Bowe all describing how playing how this was a great opportunity to get to a semi-final and final - they completely lost sight of the fact that Wales were serious team and were not going to roll over.

As they ran out in Wellington you could see that there were nerves - guys looked jumpy in the tunnel and then sprinted and jumped when they came out onto the pitch - like 3 week old lambs being left out into a field for the first time!! - This is where I think Kidney fell short - my belief has always been that the game plan is decided amongst all the coaches - this is the way it worked at Munster as far as I know. But he was generally good at man management and motivation, he never let teams get ahead of themselves or look past the next game - all the talk in the week before the Wales game was about semi's and possible finals - I'm not sure that many of the Wales players even gave interviews!!! You will never win a rugby match if you are looking towards the next fixture.

Red Right wrote:
We were caught by Wales, they had better tactics and less fear.

I agree with that actually but this is were youth trumps experience. As soon as the players came out of the tunnel I knew we were beaten. Ireland played like a side deperate to be in the SF and terrified to lose. It was the last chance saloon for so many players and it showed in the jittery performance and poor descision making from the likes of BOD, ROG and O'Connell. They played the occaision rather than the game and when Williams scored the early try it was over.

Wales looked like they didn't have a care in the world and had no fear or doubt that they would win. The invincibility and swagger of youth.

I wouldn't judge kidney just on that game but on the general substandard level of play we've seen under his reign.

roddersm wrote:
I wouldn't judge kidney just on that game but on the general substandard level of play we've seen under his reign.

That's the main point of criticism on Kidney,in his time we've seen about 3 performances that I consider to be top class,another 4 or 5 that were decent and more than acceptable but the majority have varied between poor and inept.

Iv'e always liked Mike Ruddock as a coach, he has done some fantastic things, from achieving success at Swansea, to taking over Ebbw Vale when they were bankrupt and all their players walking out, to building a new team with players no one had ever heard of and taking them to the top 4 in the Welsh league.

He came into the Welsh set up and ironed out the problems in a Welsh team that got white washed in the 6 Nations the year before, and won a grand slam, using the same group of players.

He was also Leinster coach between 1997 and 2000, and broke in Brian O'Driscoll and Shane Horgan to top flight rugby. Not bad players he developed there!

I think the Worcester job may have set his reputation back a bit, but you can't always sow a silk purse with a sows ear, and any newly promoted team to the Aviva Premiership gets a lot less money than a team who have been in it for 6 years solid, so he was always fighting with 1 arm tied behind his back.

He has a good record of developing young players and having him in the Irish set up is only a positive for Irish rugby.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:
I wouldn't judge kidney just on that game but on the general substandard level of play we've seen under his reign.

That's the main point of criticism on Kidney,in his time we've seen about 3 performances that I consider to be top class,another 4 or 5 that were decent and more than acceptable but the majority have varied between poor and inept.

The main aspect of the criticism which is not apparent is the fact that the players are 50% to blame for this. Did kidney and his team coach missed kicks, missed tackles, basic schoolboy errors...apparently that's his fault as well

DOD wrote:

The main aspect of the criticism which is not apparent is the fact that the players are 50% to blame for this. Did kidney and his team coach missed kicks, missed tackles, basic schoolboy errors...apparently that's his fault as well

No he just sent out players who missed kicks and tackles etc. and in some cases he has stuck rigidly to players who continue to underperform.

I would also ask why these players don't miss tackles,kicks etc. against the likes of Leicester,Clermont,Toulouse,Northampton but fall to pieces when Scotland or Italy are put in front of them?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:

The main aspect of the criticism which is not apparent is the fact that the players are 50% to blame for this. Did kidney and his team coach missed kicks, missed tackles, basic schoolboy errors...apparently that's his fault as well

No he just sent out players who missed kicks and tackles etc. and in some cases he has stuck rigidly to players who continue to underperform.

I would also ask why these players don't miss tackles,kicks etc. against the likes of Leicester,Clermont,Toulouse,Northampton but fall to pieces when Scotland or Italy are put in front of them?

Its a great question. It points to the coaches AND the players. If players continually drop or knock-on passes, miss tackles or opportunities - then drop em!

That'll cure em.

So Asoreleftshoulder name the culprits...that he sent out and who underperformed...all 15, one or two?

Mike is a good coach but I wonder if he will be so focused on beating Wales that it could cloud his judgement.
I also had that feeling about Gatland/Ireland when he joined Wales and some of the things he said in the first season or two confirmed that.

D'Arcy,TOL,Luke Fitz,Buckley and Hayes were all persisted with for far too long.

I'm not saying he should consign them to the scrap heap but if they aren't up to scratch they should be dropped and made fight for their place again.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:D'Arcy,TOL,Luke Fitz,Buckley and Hayes were all persisted with for far too long.

I'm not saying he should consign them to the scrap heap but if they aren't up to scratch they should be dropped and made fight for their place again.

Of the five which four have been consigned. Even with Hayes we didnt have a replacement until Wright got injured in Leinster (or did you want a replacement as IRish Prop?).

Darcy is still our best bet at IC.

Looking past the next game has been a recurring problem for Ireland under EOS and Kidney. How many times have they stumbled at the start of the 6 Nations, only to recover and play good rugby in the later matches? I think they're often thinking of winning the Championship from the outset, when they should be fully focused on beating the next team, which they normally seem to do against England.

DOD wrote:
Of the five which four have been consigned. Even with Hayes we didnt have a replacement until Wright got injured in Leinster (or did you want a replacement as IRish Prop?).

Darcy is still our best bet at IC.

I don't understand what you mean with the first question.Buckley should have replaced Hayes long before he was given the chance then we would have found out he wasn't up to it quicker.

Paddy Wallace has been better than D'Arcy for the last 2 seasons,I say that as a Leinster supporter.(that doesn't mean I'm right)

Buckley!...I am talking about Ross. Buckley was always flakey...so who else was there....what about TOL brilliant in 09 we were left with an ordinary Redden and Boss until Murray came along...guess what a couple of games for Munster and then he was catapulted into the irish set up and is now streets ahead of the others. What about Fitz he is playing well and no one would begrudge a call up now, but was jetisoned when required.

If you feel comfortable about having Wallace there instead of Darcy thats fine but not sure how you could say he is better than darcy. Regardless of ROGs form what about Sexton when he gets flakey which happens a lot (and hopefullly wont happen this season). The best players we had were playing with one or two possible discussion points...but they were still rubbish on occassions...but sure that was DKs fault....

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

DOD wrote:
Of the five which four have been consigned. Even with Hayes we didnt have a replacement until Wright got injured in Leinster (or did you want a replacement as IRish Prop?).

Darcy is still our best bet at IC.

I don't understand what you mean with the first question.Buckley should have replaced Hayes long before he was given the chance then we would have found out he wasn't up to it quicker.

Paddy Wallace has been better than D'Arcy for the last 2 seasons,I say that as a Leinster supporter.(that doesn't mean I'm right)

Can I frame that and bring it out occasionally as the need arises.

It won't happen but really we should be replacing both Darcy and Wallace this season. Neither of them should be on the Tour in the summer. Certainly they shouldn't be around in the autumn or next 6N.

Paddy feicin Wallace has never been even near Darcy. Not now - not ever.

Darcy is near finished, but, hes a far better player than Wallace. That's why he played there for 10 years.

McFadden in at 12. Earls, for a bit - at 13. Then, replaced by the enigmatic O' Malley.

Jeezuz. why do ye goys go on? Its a done deal already.

Succession was pre-determined.

Cant be having non-Palers at centre. Sheesh.