English rugby has a problem ?

First topic message reminder :

Only 1 team in the QF's just isn't good enough.

Before anyone thinks I am crowing this is Staurt Barnes's opinion as well.
He clearly is a worried man , he knows his rugby and is a passionate Englishman

Well to have seven teams in the comp and only have the prospect of one getting out of the groups is a worrying stat

viewtothegym wrote:Well to have seven teams in the comp and only have the prospect of one getting out of the groups is a worrying stat

Yeah, it's not great.

Try and imagine though if you came from a proud nation that had never had one of its clubs/regions win the Heineken Cup. Not ever. Not once. That would be worrying too I would have thought. Still, it could just be a long blip.

When English clubs such as Leicester, Northampton and Gloucester start getting regular league attendances comparable to what the Welsh sides attract then I will admit that English rugby might have a problem.
Fundamentally there doesn't seem to me to be anything wrong and it's in a far better state of health than the Welsh set up, that's for sure.
So what if they have failed dismally in the HEC this year? Put it down to a bad day at the office. The English will return again in force. They always do.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well to have seven teams in the comp and only have the prospect of one getting out of the groups is a worrying stat

Yeah, it's not great.

Try and imagine though if you came from a proud nation that had never had one of its clubs/regions win the Heineken Cup. Not ever. Not once. That would be worrying too I would have thought. Still, it could just be a long blip.

Cyril.

SafeAsMilk wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well to have seven teams in the comp and only have the prospect of one getting out of the groups is a worrying stat

Yeah, it's not great.

Try and imagine though if you came from a proud nation that had never had one of its clubs/regions win the Heineken Cup. Not ever. Not once. That would be worrying too I would have thought. Still, it could just be a long blip.

Maybe Wales should do what the English teams did and bring in a bunch of overseas players to win the HC? just like Ulster have done! and call it success?
Best not look how far that whole patching up the cracks got English rugby! plopping out of the world cup like a turd and watching a South African feeder club that is "English" be their only hope in Europe.
May i add why you talk so big? you personally didn't got out there and win any silverware for English clubs, you just happen to be born on that side of an imaginary line called a border in which teams that represent areas on your side of that line happen to have had some success in past years European cups.
Which team do you support that won the HC? because surely by your own standards coat tailing must be labelled if you give an ouch of praise to any team that isn't your own?

English clubs winning in Europe doesn't make you better than any one,you just think it does because that's the only bit of power you feel in your life besides when your on world of warcraft besting imaginary Pixies.

Maybe Cardiff should have done what was best for.......Cardiff years ago.
Wish it had worked out and we'd be out of the mad Welsh bubble we are in now.

The French, despite all their money, only have two sides through, and if it hadn't been for a very strange bounce Quins would have gone through making it two English sides.

I don't think English club rugby has a particular problem, I think the Irish club sides are exceptional. There's not much difference between the English sides and the French, Welsh and Scottish sides.

I think the Irish club sides are exceptional.

Thanks for the compliment. I actually think it's a point that is often overlooked in these debates about who's doing worse than who and which league is better than which. The Irish are exceptional in this competition. They have the history and passionate support of the greatest clubs. And the abundance of home grown test players that modern franchises have. The best of both worlds. They're also particularly well run organizations from top to bottom and for obvious financial and prestige reasons they pour their souls into this competition. It's a potent mix.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I think the Irish club sides are exceptional.

Thanks for the compliment. I actually think it's a point that is often overlooked in these debates about who's doing worse than who and which league is better than which. The Irish are exceptional in this competition. They have the history and passionate support of the greatest clubs. And the abundance of home grown test players that modern franchises have. The best of both worlds. They're also particularly well run organizations from top to bottom and for obvious financial and prestige reasons they pour their souls into this competition. It's a potent mix.

Yeah it seems like there are a number of reasons why the Irish teams are doing so well. But i think an even more fundamental point is - you've just got better players. I think you're right about pouring your souls into the HC, it always seems like Irish teams are massively up for every game. Contrast this with the English who seem to have a flat game followed by a response where they'r really pumped. I've thought about this though and i think it also comes down to coaching. The Irish teams, even Munster, seem to be playing a much quicker rucking game. Given the necessity to blast teams at the breakdown, i think is necessarily a more aggressive style then the game us English are playing at present. The only teams i've seen try and play like that in the Jeff are Quins and Sale, and thats because they have smaller packs.

Sorry, bit of a nazel-gaving waffle! Good luck to you Irish though, you're doing something right!

Cardiff Dave wrote: So what if they have failed dismally in the HEC this year? Put it down to a bad day at the office. The English will return again in force. They always do.

Bad days at the office are becoming the norm though.

Wasps apart, who are on the slide, no English team has won the HC since 2002.
That has to be a worry.

The day we crack the conundrum of transferring consistent Heineken Cup success into consistent 6 Nations success, I'll be laughing.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I think the Irish club sides are exceptional.

Thanks for the compliment. I actually think it's a point that is often overlooked in these debates about who's doing worse than who and which league is better than which. The Irish are exceptional in this competition. They have the history and passionate support of the greatest clubs. And the abundance of home grown test players that modern franchises have. The best of both worlds. They're also particularly well run organizations from top to bottom and for obvious financial and prestige reasons they pour their souls into this competition. It's a potent mix.

I wonder if England should follow that system. Slim right down to a few regions and put all your players in those few teams. Seems to ensure well rested players and huge squads for the regions.

Also seems to be plenty of money in the Irish regions, again perhaps because they're only trying to fund a few. Another good reason.

Works for clubs and country, eng and France are stretched too thin I think.

Great game on between Trevisoo and Sarries. Sarries holding out 23-20 but Treviso pushing them.

Biarritz have just got a third against Ospreys.

Make that a fourth against Ospreys. Biarritz now in the running for 8th spot.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I think the Irish club sides are exceptional.

Thanks for the compliment. I actually think it's a point that is often overlooked in these debates about who's doing worse than who and which league is better than which. The Irish are exceptional in this competition. They have the history and passionate support of the greatest clubs. And the abundance of home grown test players that modern franchises have. The best of both worlds. They're also particularly well run organizations from top to bottom and for obvious financial and prestige reasons they pour their souls into this competition. It's a potent mix.

Yep, can't fault that but The HC is the bread and butter for the Irish sides. So no wonder they've been so strong in recent years. Every other team play their best starters for Rabo games wereas the Irish teams play a few, and blood young and aquad players. Christ, I think I've only seen BOD, Earls,Sexton et al once or twice in 5 yrs down the Liberty!

Breadvan, that's not our call unfortunately. The IRFU pays their salaries so they decide how much rugby they play.

viewtothegym wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Well to have seven teams in the comp and only have the prospect of one getting out of the groups is a worrying stat

Yeah, it's not great.

Try and imagine though if you came from a proud nation that had never had one of its clubs/regions win the Heineken Cup. Not ever. Not once. That would be worrying too I would have thought. Still, it could just be a long blip.

Maybe Wales should do what the English teams did and bring in a bunch of overseas players to win the HC? just like Ulster have done! and call it success?
Best not look how far that whole patching up the cracks got English rugby! plopping out of the world cup like a turd and watching a South African feeder club that is "English" be their only hope in Europe.
May i add why you talk so big? you personally didn't got out there and win any silverware for English clubs, you just happen to be born on that side of an imaginary line called a border in which teams that represent areas on your side of that line happen to have had some success in past years European cups.
Which team do you support that won the HC? because surely by your own standards coat tailing must be labelled if you give an ouch of praise to any team that isn't your own?

English clubs winning in Europe doesn't make you better than any one,you just think it does because that's the only bit of power you feel in your life besides when your on world of warcraft besting imaginary Pixies.

Blimey!

And yet we've been in the top 4 every season for the last 4 or 5 years!

Every other team play their best starters for Rabo games

Doesn't say much for your starters if youngsters are keeping Irish teams at the top of the table.

I always thought that years ago the Irish consciously or unconsciously copied the GAA setup, with league seen as a secondary competition to get ready for the bigger and more prestigious knockout tournament. But as the years past that has evolved to the point where we can assault both competitions with the intent to win both. Although no Celtic team has done a domestic/european double yet. Leinster came very close last year.

But the Heineken Cup will always take priority. It's worth more money for one thing. And it's a higher level of rugby.

Can anyone tell me what is the relationship between the Premiership clubs and schools and the non-pro, junior, under-age clubs? I was talking to a chap the other day and he was saying that if you don't go to School X or College Y in the South-West of England you have a much reduced chance of playing representative rugby at under-19 (he did say what X & Y were, but it would be irrelevant to most people on here so I refrain from identifying them).

On the other hand, Munster AND many of their supporters knew about Simon Zebo when he was still at school; John Hayes came in from a junior club; Mike Dawson (CEO Leinster) talks about their coaches going out to the schools and under-age clubs throughout the province (not just the private traditional rugby schools in Dublin) to help the local coaches and to identify potential at that level.

When rugby first went professional there were these links. I heard of lads in the Upper Sixth form driving to school in flash cars with a pro contract already signed!! While that was undoubtedly somewhat OTT, are those links still being maintained?

I was quite appalled when Leicester played Twelvetrees as OH last week - a club the size of Tigers without a recognised and competent second-string OH!

Pro Clubs should work with ALL the schools and clubs in their area and develop an ethos of association between them and the pro game.

It may be already happening, but involved as I am in education in the SW, I do not see huge evidence of it ...

Is GAA the one where you hit it with a stick?

SafeAsMilk wrote:Is GAA the one where you hit it with a stick?

No, thats golf.

There's a handful of GAA sports. The big two are hurling and gaelic football. Hurling is the one where you hit the ball with a stick. Football is the one where you hit the ref with your fist.

I think I've seen them both on telly a couple of times. They look a bit mental.

Ozzy3213 wrote:The salary cap is an excuse used by teams who have failed to achieve what they believe they should have done.

I agree. One area where the English are really struggling, both with the club sides in Europe and at International level, is at the breakdown. The Irish and the French seem to have watched and learned from the SH teams but the Prem seems to have almost evolved into it's own breakdown 'system' which is shown up as woefully inadequate when playing european and international matches. Both the Tigers against Ulster and the Saints yesterday were second best there. I think us english have to get their heads out of their arse and step up the breakdown battle in the Jeff. It worries me for the 6N. I've seen much stronger backrow's put out by Munster than yesterday (although I thought Ryan was excellent, better than I ever seen him in the second row) but they hammered the Saints there yesterday - a Saints side containing Clark & Dowson who are in the EPS.

Agree woth Doctor_grey that relegation isn't helping the English teams cause but I think the prem would suffer without it. The majority of Rabo games I've seen lack the intensity needed for a good game when the international players are rested, same with the S15 games when nothing is riding on them. Sponsorship would probably drop too if many of the games were a dead rubber. Perhaps the bonus point system should be amended, maybe remove the loosing bonus point so that teams don't just continuously kick pens when away from home. Maybe also change the try bonus point to 3 scores to encourage teams to push forward more.

The losing bonus point should only be awarded by reducing the winners tally from 4 down to 3. In that way winning sides wouldn't concede as many easy LBPs.

The Great Aukster wrote:The losing bonus point should only be awarded by reducing the winners tally from 4 down to 3. In that way winning sides wouldn't concede as many easy LBPs.

Good idea.

SafeAsMilk wrote:I think I've seen them both on telly a couple of times. They look a bit mental.

Oh you must have seen the Cragmallesk Criminally Insane team. Yeah, they're good. Won the McDonagh cup now three times in the one year.

B91212 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The losing bonus point should only be awarded by reducing the winners tally from 4 down to 3. In that way winning sides wouldn't concede as many easy LBPs.

Good idea.

+1.

That is a superb idea.

3pts for win
4pts for win by >7

I'd also add the French idea of TBP for scoring min 4 tries with >=3 tries more than opposition.

Yeah the French bonus point system is clearly better.