Englands training plan

From this article :

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/158188.html

His first training week is planned to the last detail. On Wednesday, cycling's David Brailsford and cricket's Hugh Morris will lecture the squad on what it means to be an elite athlete - Woodward would have been the ideal man to do that but that was probably asking too much, too soon. Tomorrow afternoon the players will attend an U13 tournament and coach the teams and in the evening Gary Neville will talk to them about 'what representing the country means'. On Friday, Lancaster will attend a Q&A with 150 local club coaches.

I can see where he is coming from, particularly after the disgraceful behaviour in New Zealand, but all the community and motivational stuff leaves me cold at this stage. I would have thought there were other more pressing matters to attend to such as sorting out a style of play and making sure fitness levels are up to scratch. Wales have opted for a week of really hard work - England need it too.

Have to say I agree with this. Lancaster increasingly strikes me as a coach who is despertaly trying to wave a magic wand ratehr than deal with the reality of the situation. England have a masive tournamnet ahead of them and they need wins for marale as much as an attitude. They also need the ranking points if they have any chance of being a pot 1 team for the next world cup.

I can only imagine most of teh players will find this stuff incredibly patronising. These are also not the guys who had the behaviour problems ( for the most part anyway), and most werent part of that world cup squad.

How about getting them playing some rugby then concentrate on the peripheral junk. Maybe he could get in a faith healer like the mildly insane England soccer coach.

It's cool to train but in Wales case it's absolutely freezing.

I doubt the lectures are costing them anything in training time, though, and I would hope that such an inexperienced squad would appreciate hearing what experienced international athletes and coaches have to say about it.

Seems a sensible programme - the sort of thing Sarries would do. Team spirit matters. There's only a limited amount of time you can realisitically spend on the training pitch or in the gym.

You really think having a guy who threatened to have his England team mates strike over wages is the ideal candidate to tell them what it means to represent your country? I assume Stevens, Barrit, Botha Waldrom and Tuillagi will be excused that one?
Wouldnt it be easier just to print of a list of boring cliches and hand it out?

Well I applaud what Lancaster is trying to do. We'll see if it works.

England have a plan?!!



Has anyone told the players?

Effectively,due to injuries,retirements,and players going abroad England have the most inexperienced team in decades.Nearly all the Coaches are New ,Squeaky has been taken out of the loop.
Lancaster should`nt need to have to motivate his team,most will be playing for
places for the next decade.
Sir Clive Woodward,in a recent interview pointed out Lancaster has`nt Coached at Premier League or Full England level before.
It should of course be pointed out,Both Robinson and Ashton had better Win /loss Stats than SCW when they were sacked after 15 Games,and that
SCW also failed to win a RWC as well.HE was given a chance to make amends,it ill befits anyone to down grade Lancaster.Until he has had a chance to prove himself or otherwise.
IF the RFU had any decency they would give him a years run,instead of undermining him by going for a High Profile Coach before a ball is kicked.
A 6Ns,3 tests versus the Boks then and end of year tilt including one against the All Blacks that is a tough year.
A 50% win ratio out of about 15 matches 2012 and he should be appointed Head Coach,give the man a chance!!.

I think that they must only be doing the lectures to tick a box.

That way if there's any more Blond Canoodling, Dwarf Tossing or Ferry Jumping Evenings, the England management can hold up their hands and say 'well, we got Gary Neville to tell them'...

As Mr Wheeler suggests, the elephant in the room is that if you actually need to point out to professional athletes that this kind of thing is not appropriate, then you should perhaps instead look to select players with a higher IQ than a cheese and pickle sandwich.

The main focus on training has to be sorting the flamin breakdown issues out!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wouldnt it be easier just to print of a list of boring cliches and hand it out?

Very good!

Would it not have been more appropriate to get Mike Tindall in? He knows exactly what it takes to win a world cup in rugby, as oppossed to being in an out a of a soccer team that constantly failed to live up to the hype (butr does sell a lot of underpants).

If the combined presence of Johnson, Moody, Tindall, Rowntree and Thompson couldnt get over a professional attitude between them what hope does Lancaster acting like school games master have?

I have no problem with him trying to foister a winning culture and build a team. I just find the way hes going about it mildly embaressing. I also assume that Mr Neville will be reimburssed handsomely from the RFU booty cabinet for his time, Im sure the clubs and supporters it was looted form will be happy to know its not going to Rob Andrew for once.

But its not just a footballer...its a cricketer...a cyclist etc...all sports.

Oh well then thats fine, so long as its going to take 3 hours rather than 1.....

A Welsh cricketer, mind you...

I think Lancaster's going about his new role in a great way- hat off to the man. He's completely trying to distance himself from the events of the WC, which I think most fans want to forget.

Let the man at least try things his way before criticising him.

Oh, and I did like Woodward, but now he needs to get off his high horse. I think the constant chasing by the RFU and fans has gone to his head a little.

Has anyone told them that Hugh Morris is welsh!! This is another load of modern day psychocrap - Good sports psychology is essential these days but the words patronising highlighted above along with Seabiscuits quotes seem to sum this up for me. Scotland v England! Do you really need to talk to the players about this in a pseudo-intellectual manner FFS. Gary Neville and his mates have cut their international careers short to concentrate on their clubs and as for striking for more money

I wouldn't have minded if I was an english fan if they had just left them in a room with Stuart Pearce for a few hours and let him rip into them about what it means to play for your country - that would have done the trick and I'm not kidding

"I can only imagine most of teh players will find this stuff incredibly patronising. These are also not the guys who had the behaviour problems ( for the most part anyway), and most werent part of that world cup squad.

How about getting them playing some rugby then concentrate on the peripheral junk. Maybe he could get in a faith healer like the mildly insane England soccer coach."

This amplifies the "arrogant" tag that AR has tried to pin on England prior to the 6Ns.

What you don't seem to realise is the massive job Lancaster has in trying to bring the perception of England Rugby back up in the eyes of everyone connected and interested in the sport. You think it should be flippantly dismissed with the effeminate wave of a limp wrist. It will take a lot of commitment from everyone in the squad. If one player steps mildly out of line the press will pounce mercilessly.

You are wrong and Lancaster is right. These guys know how to play rugby . The England coach's main job is selection. Getting the right guys on the park. He must build a team ethos, spirit and game-plan of course, of the highest standards.

Give the guy a break for chrisake.

englandglory4ever wrote:
This amplifies the "arrogant" tag that AR has tried to pin on England prior to the 6Ns.

What you don't seem to realise is the massive job Lancaster has in trying to bring the perception of England Rugby back up in the eyes of everyone connected and interested in the sport. You think it should be flippantly dismissed with the effeminate wave of a limp wrist. It will take a lot of commitment from everyone in the squad. If one player steps mildly out of line the press will pounce mercilessly.

You are wrong and Lancaster is right. These guys know how to play rugby . The England coach's main job is selection. Getting the right guys on the park. He must build a team ethos, spirit and game-plan of course, of the highest standards.

Bang on.

englandglory4ever wrote:"I can only imagine most of teh players will find this stuff incredibly patronising. These are also not the guys who had the behaviour problems ( for the most part anyway), and most werent part of that world cup squad.

How about getting them playing some rugby then concentrate on the peripheral junk. Maybe he could get in a faith healer like the mildly insane England soccer coach."

This amplifies the "arrogant" tag that AR has tried to pin on England prior to the 6Ns.

What you don't seem to realise is the massive job Lancaster has in trying to bring the perception of England Rugby back up in the eyes of everyone connected and interested in the sport. You think it should be flippantly dismissed with the effeminate wave of a limp wrist. It will take a lot of commitment from everyone in the squad. If one player steps mildly out of line the press will pounce mercilessly.

You are wrong and Lancaster is right. These guys know how to play rugby . The England coach's main job is selection. Getting the right guys on the park. He must build a team ethos, spirit and game-plan of course, of the highest standards.

Give the guy a break for chrisake.

And you think hireing a failed international soccer playerwho retired early to fiocus on his better paid club career and tried to get his england teammates to strike over wages to lecture the side like schoolboys is the best way to do that?

"And you think hireing a failed international soccer playerwho retired early to fiocus on his better paid club career and tried to get his england teammates to strike over wages to lecture the side like schoolboys is the best way to do that?"

Are you a failed journo trying to rubbish the England team again already? What makes you arrogantly think you know better? My blood boils when people make comments about a guy just starting out on a job and who is genuinely trying to make a difference. Someone once said -"God save us from the little people..."

I think the point is that Gary Neville might not be the best former sportsman to have chosen.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler seems obsessed with denegrating Stuart Lancaster and England. I've seen this sort of behaviour before, its usually when the poster is petrified of the person he is so vociferously trying to put down.

RubyGuby wrote:Gary Neville and his mates have cut their international careers short to concentrate on their clubs and as for striking for more money

Neville didn't retire from Internationals. He got a horrendous injury 4 years ago and by the time he came back he'd been overtaken at right back.

thomh wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Gary Neville and his mates have cut their international careers short to concentrate on their clubs and as for striking for more money

Neville didn't retire from Internationals. He got a horrendous injury 4 years ago and by the time he came back he'd been overtaken at right back.

Stop trying to let the truth get in the way of a bigot and his tainted point of view, you'll upset the little brains people..

Someone once said -"God save us from the little people..."

The thing is Gory they were referring to the RFU and Lancaster

OK apolgies I got that wrong.

Hwoever it appears that you are scared of me given the amount of time you spent putting me down and hurling insults ( hi new poster, you may want to check the house rules )rather than debating the topic in hand.

I havent put down Lancaster anywhere, i have questioned this apporoach to this aspect..as has the journalist who wrote that article and SCW.

Good luck to Lancaster but I think he should have stayed in charge of the Brittas Empire as he was doing a good job there.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK apolgies I got that wrong.

Hwoever it appears that you are scared of me given the amount of time you spent putting me down and hurling insults ( hi new poster, you may want to check the house rules )rather than debating the topic in hand.

I havent put down Lancaster anywhere, i have questioned this apporoach to this aspect..as has the journalist who wrote that article and SCW.

Where? The article I saw about SCW took some fairly mild-mannered quotes ("He must feel very lucky to be given this chance" etc) and tried to pass them off as widespread criticism. Has he said anything new?

One more thing - the bit about Neville retiring from internationals and trying to lead the team out on strike. It could have been written about Martin Johnson or Lewis Moody, but neither I nor anyone else I've read holds that against them.

I don't agree with getting a football player in for motivational speeches.

They are paid an obsence amount of money compared to rugby players and play in a completely different type of team atmosphere.

Wales got Richard Parks in as a motivational speaker - there must be loads of inspirational ex English rugby players avaliable instead of a rat face over paid spoilt prima donna

Lancaster says that Neville has a number of regrets about his intenrational career. Who knows, maybe he has something to contribute? I think Lancaster deserves the benefit of the doubt.

thomh wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK apolgies I got that wrong.

Hwoever it appears that you are scared of me given the amount of time you spent putting me down and hurling insults ( hi new poster, you may want to check the house rules )rather than debating the topic in hand.

I havent put down Lancaster anywhere, i have questioned this apporoach to this aspect..as has the journalist who wrote that article and SCW.

Where? The article I saw about SCW took some fairly mild-mannered quotes ("He must feel very lucky to be given this chance" etc) and tried to pass them off as widespread criticism. Has he said anything new?

One more thing - the bit about Neville retiring from internationals and trying to lead the team out on strike. It could have been written about Martin Johnson or Lewis Moody, but neither I nor anyone else I've read holds that against them.

Well quite a lot of people seem to hold a grudge against them at the minute!



Anyway Lncaster will for the most part be judged on his results. If he gets them, Ill be mor ethan happy. Ill ever invite him over for tea so long as he does na after dinner speach.

I just really have a dislike for this kind of low rent sports psychology. Ive been subjected to it myself before, and I didnt win a world cup.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Well quite a lot of people seem to hold a grudge against them at the minute!

Ha good point, but not for the reason I mentioned.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK apolgies I got that wrong.

Hwoever it appears that you are scared of me given the amount of time you spent putting me down and hurling insults ( hi new poster, you may want to check the house rules )rather than debating the topic in hand.

I havent put down Lancaster anywhere, i have questioned this apporoach to this aspect..as has the journalist who wrote that article and SCW.

I checked and agreed to the house rules, and I havent been hurling insults, there's a lot of difference between making a valid observation that happens to have touched your nerves and hurling insults.

As long as England don't spend time teaching Corbisiero to scrummage I don't really mind.

My own view is that I think all this motivational stuff is total nonsense. I can't imagine for a single second what Gary Neville can possibly add to a rugby squad (although I've no doubt the players will tell the media how helpful it was afterwards). But I've never coached a rugby team in my life, so I'm willing to stake a bet that Lancaster knows more about this than I do.

The above poster is right. No-one will care a jot about this if England come out of the traps in Murrayfield and Rome and kick-off with two strong away wins. However, if England come out and play as if they've never seen eachother before, lose to Scotland and win by a point in Rome, celebrating by fouling the Vatican, then Lancaster's methods and allocation of time will come under scrutiny. Fierce scrutiny.

He's only an interim coach, don't forget that, and despite what the RFU are saying, he shouldn't be in contention for the main job, regardless of what happens in this tournament.

Equo Troiano wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK apolgies I got that wrong.

Hwoever it appears that you are scared of me given the amount of time you spent putting me down and hurling insults ( hi new poster, you may want to check the house rules )rather than debating the topic in hand.

I havent put down Lancaster anywhere, i have questioned this apporoach to this aspect..as has the journalist who wrote that article and SCW.

I checked and agreed to the house rules, and I havent been hurling insults, there's a lot of difference between making a valid observation that happens to have touched your nerves and hurling insults.

So the small minded biogot comment wasnt aimed at me and was part of a reasoned debate?


Move on anyway, the debate has.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
So the small minded biogot comment wasnt aimed at me and was part of a reasoned debate?

If the cap fits...

Girls please, lets not reduce an excellent rugby debating forum into the old 606 for God's sake.

As for the schedule this week, I too can see PSW's point of view on this one. And as a true Liberal Democrat (before I get stoned to death i'm not one) might, I can see what Equo is trying to say here.

The programme itself does seem a bit odd, Gary Neville would be past the 1,000th mark for me on a list of who i'd want to be a motivational speaker. As has been noted however, Lancaster obviously feels he has something strong to offer and as such the team may find it illuminating. My worry on this front is that it also strikes me as a touch patronising. Yes I like the idea of having someone in from outside of rugby, but do they really need a great procession of speakers? I'd have though one would be enough.

Lancaster's priority I feel has to be the team blending together effectively and training. At the moment, he's just overdoing the 'we're nothing like the RWC team' for me. He has already had individual meetings with the players and made them read the EPS Code of Conduct.

I am clearly prepared to give him the leeway to do what he wants, as long as we see progress on the field. We know he is a 'strategy light' coach, but that is a high risk game to play at full international level.

I think they might learn a think or two from Bailsford about the levels of commitment and attention to detail that are needed at the highest level. I'm sure Lancaster will be picking his brains too.

Rugby players are getting far to much like football players, overpaid and spoiled (some anyway).

There's been a single very consistent theme behind what Stuart Lancaster has done so far, and that is building a common team ethos that emphasises discipline and commitment.

- Restructuring the squad around young, professional players who will be competitive in 2015
- Dropping Care to show he is serious about zero tolerance
- Dropping Easter, quite likely because he was the player most likely to challenge Lancaster - useful when you have time, not when you don't
- Pushing players like Wood and Robshaw, who are defined by their work ethic and discipline, to the fore

Bringing in these speakers is a part of that theme. Brailsford turned a good team into a great one; Morris was part of turning England from a laughing stock into the No 1 team in the world. Discipline. preparation and attention to detail, to the nth degree.

Neville is there, reportedly, to talk about how England's golden generation of footballers blew their chance.

Should (and will) professional sportsmen know a lot of this stuff already? Will they have examples from their own club and international careers to draw on? Probably yes to both.

Is it therefore pointless? No. This is about shared experience. Lancaster has to tear down the existing England culture, take a bunch of guys who have never played together before and create a new sense of common purpose in very little time.

The point of having these speakers is that the whole squad will hear them together and I imagine will be asked to agree collectively what they want to do as a team as a result. Having speakers from outside the sport takes a lot of the cynicism out of it - no-one in the room will have a different first hand view, and hearing what the cyclists and cricketers have done sets a target for the rugby players as well.

I also suspect that the difference between the successful teams and the footballers will emerge as smaller than we might think. Gary Neville is there to emphasise that there is a fine line between success and failure.

You can dismiss it as psychobabble, but there is a big difference between having a bunch of players who spout the platitudes but don't gel on the pitch and having a team. They can only really be a team by getting to know each other and to trust each other's commitment and abilities. It would be better for the team to play together for a while and get the trust that way. But that takes time, which England don't have. This is a pretty good way to kick start the process.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:From this article :

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2012/rugby/story/158188.html

His first training week is planned to the last detail. On Wednesday, cycling's David Brailsford and cricket's Hugh Morris will lecture the squad on what it means to be an elite athlete - Woodward would have been the ideal man to do that but that was probably asking too much, too soon. Tomorrow afternoon the players will attend an U13 tournament and coach the teams and in the evening Gary Neville will talk to them about 'what representing the country means'. On Friday, Lancaster will attend a Q&A with 150 local club coaches.

I can see where he is coming from, particularly after the disgraceful behaviour in New Zealand, but all the community and motivational stuff leaves me cold at this stage. I would have thought there were other more pressing matters to attend to such as sorting out a style of play and making sure fitness levels are up to scratch. Wales have opted for a week of really hard work - England need it too.

Have to say I agree with this. Lancaster increasingly strikes me as a coach who is despertaly trying to wave a magic wand ratehr than deal with the reality of the situation. England have a masive tournamnet ahead of them and they need wins for marale as much as an attitude. They also need the ranking points if they have any chance of being a pot 1 team for the next world cup.

I can only imagine most of teh players will find this stuff incredibly patronising. These are also not the guys who had the behaviour problems ( for the most part anyway), and most werent part of that world cup squad.

How about getting them playing some rugby then concentrate on the peripheral junk. Maybe he could get in a faith healer like the mildly insane England soccer coach.

Can you blame the guy? He's going to get very few games as head coach and if he wants to keep his job he has to be spectacular, inventive and unorthodox. He has to stamp his mark quickly, dig out some rot and make the blazers notice. A routine training camp and 3rd place isn't going to help him. He may as well shoot for the moon.

They should not need motivating all they need to be told is play well and you get to wear the shirt play very well and you will get to wear it again.

"Stay sober,play some Rugby and leave the dwarves alone!" would seem a good mantra.

Cymroglan wrote:They should not need motivating all they need to be told is play well and you get to wear the shirt play very well and you will get to wear it again.

And you really think telling them that will produce any sort of team performance? If so, you need to find yourself a better boss.

Representing your country at the highest level and you need a boss to tell you what it means ?
They should not need to be told.

Cymroglan wrote:Representing your country at the highest level and you need a boss to tell you what it means ?
They should not need to be told.

To be fair, he did play for Scotland (despite being English)

Penrith has probably moved over the border a few times

Cymroglan wrote:Representing your country at the highest level and you need a boss to tell you what it means ?
They should not need to be told.

You're missing both my points, possibly deliberately:
1) Forging an elite team quickly with a new ethos and a new bunch of players takes more than individual motivation. Giving them a relevant shared experience is a good way to do that when you haven't got much time
2) If you really believe that you build a team by telling individuals to perform or be sacked, then your current boss is a pretty shabby man manager. I'd recommend getting a new one.

Despite bowing to no man in my irrational hatred of all things Machester and rat-face in particular, if he's there to talk about where he and the so-called "Golden Generation" went wrong, e.g. the pursuit of money, believing their own press, the egotrips, WAGS, and everything else, then maybe there is a point to this.
As remarked above, rugby is getting more like association football in terms of wages, tabloid/media profile and celebrity, if Nevile can get how to deal with this across to the newer players (and possibly the older ones as well) then it's not a bad lesson to learn.

miteyironpaw wrote:Can you blame the guy? He's going to get very few games as head coach and if he wants to keep his job he has to be spectacular, inventive and unorthodox. He has to stamp his mark quickly, dig out some rot and make the blazers notice. A routine training camp and 3rd place isn't going to help him. He may as well shoot for the moon.

I think you are right on the money here. I don't care if Lancaster is simply ticking boxes with this approach or whether this is a serious attempt to engage with the Rugby community. The end result is a good thing. And, since he is in this very strange caretaker role, he has to do things differently compared to what went before. This shows he gets and understands the political situation. I am not so sure other coaches wouldn't simply keep the players locked up, grind out a middling third place finish and wonder why they were not hired full time. I certainly hope he coaches as well as handling the outside stuff. We will know soon.