England Back Row for Italy match

What would your back row be for the England match against Italy? Considering Robshaw won't be dropped due to being the captain, these are the only real possibilities....

Leave your back row alone, they did enough to earn a second outing. Bring Morgan off the bench again.

It's your second row you should look at - too much standing off rucks and not enough work rate. Just my opinion of course.

Morgan deserves to start, Croft isn't really a ball carrier, Robshaw is an effective carrier who offers himself but does not gain much yardage, and the same stands for Dowson. Morgan offers real go forward and another dimension to the England back-row, which would help create a better balance against more competent teams.

Whilst defensively Morgan has an extremely high work-rate, so it's not like he'd be a risk defensively, whilst at 22 - he has a huge international future.

I'd have

6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

19. Clark (younger and has potential to be a much more effective player at international level than Dowson, who at 31 is hardly going to be an option at the 2015 world cup)

tom_watson wrote:Morgan deserves to start, Croft isn't really a ball carrier, Robshaw is an effective carrier who offers himself but does not gain much yardage, and the same stands for Dowson. Morgan offers real go forward and another dimension to the England back-row, which would help create a better balance against more competent teams.

Whilst defensively Morgan has an extremely high work-rate, so it's not like he'd be a risk defensively, whilst at 22 - he has a huge international future.

I'd have

6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

19. Clark (younger and has potential to be a much more effective player at international level than Dowson, who at 31 is hardly going to be an option at the 2015 world cup)

+1

Personally I wouldn't go for any of those robshaw4england!

I'd go

6. Dowson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan Croft on the bench to shock the tired Italians with his pace.

I think Dowson was good at the breakdown, abrasive and tenacious, but not an international standard 8.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

tom_watson wrote:Morgan deserves to start, Croft isn't really a ball carrier, Robshaw is an effective carrier who offers himself but does not gain much yardage, and the same stands for Dowson. Morgan offers real go forward and another dimension to the England back-row, which would help create a better balance against more competent teams.

Whilst defensively Morgan has an extremely high work-rate, so it's not like he'd be a risk defensively, whilst at 22 - he has a huge international future.

I'd have

6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

19. Clark (younger and has potential to be a much more effective player at international level than Dowson, who at 31 is hardly going to be an option at the 2015 world cup)

+1

+2

Off topic a bit, but here is what I think England could end up with when Haskell returns:

6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

I think that is a pretty solid back-row!

bluestonevedder wrote:Personally I wouldn't go for any of those robshaw4england!

I'd go

6. Dowson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan Croft on the bench to shock the tired Italians with his pace.

I think Dowson was good at the breakdown, abrasive and tenacious, but not an international standard 8.

Agree. Still thought the backrow balance wasn't right on Saturday with not enough carrying ability in the tight. Once Wood is back swap him with Dowson (and move Robshaw to 6). I'm a Saints fan and although I rate Clark I'm not sure he is ready for the step up yet. Could be wrong but he does a tendency to give away a lot of penalties, especially when the team is under pressure. Fierce competitor though who will always give 100%, good hands and the ability to cover various positions. He will become an England regular in the future.

Dropping Croft to the bench is a change of heart from me from before the 6N but I feel we haven't got the right backrow players to complement him available for England at the moment.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Off topic a bit, but here is what I think England could end up with when Haskell returns:

6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

I think that is a pretty solid back-row!

Robshaw 6, Wood 7, Haskell 8 (make him play there) looks better to me

bluestonevedder wrote:Personally I wouldn't go for any of those robshaw4england!

I'd go

6. Dowson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan Croft on the bench to shock the tired Italians with his pace.

I think Dowson was good at the breakdown, abrasive and tenacious, but not an international standard 8.

+1. Absolutely agree.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Off topic a bit, but here is what I think England could end up with when Haskell returns:

6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

I think that is a pretty solid back-row!

Robshaw 6, Wood 7, Haskell 8 (make him play there) looks better to me

Haskell isn't great at the basics at 8, and is best suited to 6 IMO. With Robshaw doing the hard work, and Morgan making the hard yards, I think this backrow has much better balance than the one you suggest. IMO of course.

Although I rate Haskell as a player, he has a cocky, arrogant and rude personality. If Lancaster remains in charge, he won't want someone like Haskell who could potentially divide a camp, due to his insolence.

The same can be said for the arrogant Cipriani, the vigilante Armitage and the money hungry Easter.

Playing for England should be a huge pride and Lancaster has helped reinstall these values into the England squad, with fresh players and a focus on national pride.

I think Haskell gets a lot of slack for being cocky etc, but tbh he seems to get on well with the rest of the england team and he had a very good world cup, so regardless of whether or not he is cocky, he still deserves to start if he plays well for the Highlanders and returns to England in the same form.

I have to admit I was impressed with Haskell the whole of last year. He was very good in the six nations, and carried that form to the WC. I agree with Rory regarding all the slack that he gets (similarly with Ashton), and depending on his form when he returns, wouldn't mind seeing him back in the squad. The only problem is where he would fit in....6 or 8 are the only options, but there's a few better options for 8 at the moment; Morgan impressed me a lot when he came on, Crane will be back, Alex Grey is up and coming...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Off topic a bit, but here is what I think England could end up with when Haskell returns:

6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

I think that is a pretty solid back-row!

Robshaw 6, Wood 7, Haskell 8 (make him play there) looks better to me

Haskell isn't great at the basics at 8, and is best suited to 6 IMO. With Robshaw doing the hard work, and Morgan making the hard yards, I think this backrow has much better balance than the one you suggest. IMO of course.

Who's going to win the ball? Unless Haskell and Robshaw share breakdown duties, which tbh is what I'd have Wood and Robshaw doing. If we don't have a 7, then play left and right!

bluestonevedder wrote:I have to admit I was impressed with Haskell the whole of last year. He was very good in the six nations, and carried that form to the WC. I agree with Rory regarding all the slack that he gets (similarly with Ashton), and depending on his form when he returns, wouldn't mind seeing him back in the squad. The only problem is where he would fit in....6 or 8 are the only options, but there's a few better options for 8 at the moment; Morgan impressed me a lot when he came on, Crane will be back, Alex Grey is up and coming...

Number 19?

Wood is hardly a breakdown specialist himself. The whole pack can share the breakdown duties, with Robshaw getting there to secure it off the set piece. France don't play any breakdown specialists. They all can do it when required however.

I also thought Haskell played well last year and did so in the 7 shirt. He has speed, power and good carrying ability. Why couldn't he be converted into a breakdown specialist such as Pocock? He's not as tall as Wood as far as i'm aware.

I'm hoping to see this competition for the back row by 2013 6 N:

Robshaw, Haskell, Wood, Saull, Wallace, Morgan, Clark, Croft, Crane, Guest

Then we can have a set back row and bench spot but with the variety to change it up if the opposition/gameplan/conditions suggest it

He doesn't need to be converted into a breakdown specialist and it would be silly to do so. He doesn't have the rugby brain for it anyway. He can knock players off the ball at the breakdown and that is good enough for him, he will still help present quick recycled ball.

Joe Worsley didn't have a brain but I remember him starting at 7.....

Chjw131 wrote:Joe Worsley didn't have a brain but I remember him starting at 7.....

And some would argue that was a mistake and was primarily because once again we didn't actually have any real opensides?

Chjw131 wrote:Joe Worsley didn't have a brain but I remember him starting at 7.....

Yeah, but he was never a breakdown specialist.. which is what you said Haskell should be developed into.

Nor do I believe this whole "natural" 7 thing is needed. You just need balance within the pack. Many players can share the breakdown duties, the carrying duties, and the donkey work.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Joe Worsley didn't have a brain but I remember him starting at 7.....

And some would argue that was a mistake and was primarily because once again we didn't actually have any real opensides?

Indeed. Saull, despite the hype hasn't really demonstrated a great deal so far for my liking. I remember him going well in the Jeff last season, but mainly for his speed and support. He looks too small to me. Who else is or could be?

The Joe Worsley comment was an out and out joke by the way.

I agree with you in principle Rory, but with the lack of collective forward coaching at the breakdown, as Ireland seem to do so well, a leader in that field is required I feel.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Number 19?

Yup, he's a cracking bench option

I'm with the majority, Morgan in for Dowson. When Wood comes back I'd start him instead of Croft.

beshocked wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Personally I wouldn't go for any of those robshaw4england!

I'd go

6. Dowson 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan Croft on the bench to shock the tired Italians with his pace.

I think Dowson was good at the breakdown, abrasive and tenacious, but not an international standard 8.

+1. Absolutely agree.

+2

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Off topic a bit, but here is what I think England could end up with when Haskell returns:

6) Haskell
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

I think that is a pretty solid back-row!

Crane will be back by then as well and I think he's a superior version of Morgan.

For the flanks and bench spot I'd be selecting horses for courses between Wood, Robshaw & Haskell, probably erring on the side of Wood at 7, Robshaw at 6, with Haskell offering the greater impact option from the bench and the greater position cover.

If it wasn't for his injury I would have loved Fearns to be in the mix (taking Clark's place) and hope he gets a spot on the summer tour. I think he will become a better version of Haskell, seemingly possessing a bit more of a rugby brain.

Crane is a very good call also - I forgot about him there and before his injury I thought he should be the England 8.

I personly would like to see for the Italy match atleast, Robshaw/Dowson/Morgan.

Some one mentiond Clarke, actualy forgot about him, is he still in the squad? Would like to see as many back row options as possible, with out to mutch tinkering.(If that is possible)