Without Whistles or Bells

Ali was fortunate to have the ability to back up his words with action. His immense fighting talent and big personality made him, without doubt, one of the most (if not the most) recognised sportsmen on the planet. But would “the greatest” have been as great without his famous lip? Imagine a version of Ali with the same talent but without the whistles and bells – would he have been as famous? As recognised? Frazier, by comparison, was the antithesis of this and he never quite received the same level of recognition or respect from the general populous that Ali commanded.

So this leads on to something I was pondering this morning. Are there any talented fighters, past or present, that could have been more famous by having a bigger personality?

I'd say Gene Tunney epitomises this syndrome, MediaCat.

He never did quite 'click' with the public and, by all accounts, it was very much his own choice.

Do you think Tunney suffered in this manner for beating a popular champion in Dempsey, HumanWindmill, or was it simply a lack in the charm offensive department?

Realise it was not directed at me media but definitely think it was a factor, he also did not really endear himself to the press which never helped, could come across as aloof and coming on the back of Dempsey the last thing journalists expected from the heavyweight champion was discussions on literature and Shakespeare quotes. However many a good champion such as Tunney and Holmes have struggled for acceptance when following icons of the game.

I believe it was primarily down to him, MediaCat.

There's little doubt that, like Ezzard Charles or Larry Holmes, Tunney would have suffered some backlash from having displaced Dempsey, but there is also little doubt that he actively disdained boxing and boxers. Tales abound of his having upset his contemporaries ( even the mild mannered Tommy Loughran, at one charity social event, ) with a somewhat superior attitude. His friends were largely drawn from the literary world, and he took a bit of a pasting for it in the newspapers. The paradox, of course, is that he loved to fight even though he, clearly, didn't love to be seen as a fighter.

Complicated man, for sure.

Thanks for the insight on Tunney, guys.

Jeff Chandler!!!!!!

Good looking American black guy who held the Bantamweight crown for nearly years and made nine defences!!!!!!!

Quiet everyday guy who sees people like Orlando Canizales in the HOF...

Should be much more known this guy!!!

Nearly four years......80-84...

a case could be made for calzaghe.
he was a much more natural talent than hatton, yet i'd happily bet that hatton made more than double calzaghe did in their careers.

joe was happy staying quiet and beating wbo bums.

HumanWindmill wrote:I believe it was primarily down to him, MediaCat.

There's little doubt that, like Ezzard Charles or Larry Holmes, Tunney would have suffered some backlash from having displaced Dempsey, but there is also little doubt that he actively disdained boxing and boxers. Tales abound of his having upset his contemporaries ( even the mild mannered Tommy Loughran, at one charity social event, ) with a somewhat superior attitude. His friends were largely drawn from the literary world, and he took a bit of a pasting for it in the newspapers. The paradox, of course, is that he loved to fight even though he, clearly, didn't love to be seen as a fighter.

Complicated man, for sure.

I'm not so sure that he "didn't want to be seen as a fighter" Windy. In 'A Man Must Fight' he discusses the general perception of him as a 'made' fighter, rather than a 'natural' one, such as Dempsey. He is very dismissive of this idea that he somehow was not a 'natural born' fighter and actually appears rather bitter that he is not perceived as such.

I certainly agree though that he had absolutely no desire to be the type of media-friendly, sports icon, Hollywood-esque style public figure that Dempsey became. His superior, lofty attitude did not endear him to the media or the general population and it seemed to bother him not one bit.

I'm happy to stand corrected, Gentleman. Thanks for that.

It was the account of the Loughran put down ( for which I, sadly, cannot provide a link, ) which prompted me to believe that he regarded boxers as second class citizens and to believe, also, that he regarded himself as being apart from the breed.

As I say, I'm happy that you have set me straight although, if anything, it muddies the Tunney waters even more.

How about the Klitscho's.

Both very respectful and intelligent men yet they don't get the credit they should.

huw wrote:How about the Klitscho's.

Both very respectful and intelligent men yet they don't get the credit they should.

Good shout, huw. I think they will be looked on more fondly in a few years time.

They are the polar opposite of David Haye's heavyweight campaign. I remember subjecting Mrs Windows to Ringside one night when Haye wouldn't sit in the same studio as Wladimir and then started abusing his 'Borat' voice, as Wladimr was talking in English. I would love to hear Haye's best efforts at Ukrainian or German or one of the other languages that the Klitschkos's can speak. My wife was outraged at what an idiot David Haye was!

They may have presided over a mediocre era, but deserve far more respect than they get.

The quiet man Michael Watson being overshadowed by both Benn and Eubank.
However, back to the matter of Ali, I think his sublime skills would have brought to the World's attention although it's impossible to imagine him as the icon he is today had he been as mild mannered as Floyd Patterson.

Dave, just a quickie to say many, many congrats on your new arrival. Missed the chance to say it when you made the announcement.

Please pass on my congrats and best wishes to Mrs. Dave, also. Hope all are bonny and happy chez 667.

Cheers Windy, my daughter is now two weeks old and in fine fettle. By the way, if anyone out there is struggling to stay alert for the big fights, can I recommend a baby as I'm usually still awake at 5am so I'm sure you'll have no problem being awake either.

I never quite know when it comes to the Klitschkos. I think they actually quite big, popular and widespread fighters. In mainland and Eastern Europe all evidence would point to them being massive stars. I actually think they have got personality and are interesting characters. But personality these days seems to really be tantamount to just trash talking WWF style. Im not necceassarily anti that because it can be interesting and entertaining in its own right but I think there is room for both.

Sometimes I wonder its just a case of the west being more overly insular. Price for example is being touted by alot of people as a future champion. Some even saying he is already a top ten heavyweight. Its possible but he hasnt really beaten anything above prizefighter standard opposition. I doubt even Ray Arcel himself could be able to make a complete evaluation after only seeing him in with that kind of opposition. Theres just no way to tell. Meanwhile in Europe there are a number of far less heralded guys with solid amateur pedigrees and building up solid records that are either unknown over here or dismissed as eurotrash despite, in my view, having more advanced careers and records than Price. This isnt to say Price wont go far or that hes not as good as these other guys but its just hard to say based on the opposition.

Another example of this would be somebody like Ruslan Chagaev. He had a very impressive amateur career and a gold medal in the world amateurs. He also beat the legendary Felix Savon twice. I cant help feel if this guy was American or British he would have been built up massively. Instead he was almost dismissed for most of his career as little more than a plodder. Im not saying he was ever a fighter to trouble the all time greats but I do wonder if guys like Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin etc are given a bit of a raw deal in terms of their actual ability. The East was closed off to professional boxing for much of Americas dominance of the division and it seems now its been opened they havent really been taken as seriously. But boxing is thriving over there at the moment and where America are struggling to draw crowds for even top 10 rated fighters like Ward and Bradley, in Europe this isnt really the case and attendances are healthy for fighters that we consider "sub par". We tend to view these guys as being no names and average but its not always the case and perhaps now that the East has been opened up to pro boxing for the last couple of decades its time for a rethink in both in terms of the quality produced and what it means to qualify as a "big/popular" fighter. It could be argued that in the heavy/cruiser divisions America has lost its entitlement to the divisions and they have for the time being found a new and welcoming home.

DAVE667 wrote:Cheers Windy, my daughter is now two weeks old and in fine fettle. By the way, if anyone out there is struggling to stay alert for the big fights, can I recommend a baby as I'm usually still awake at 5am so I'm sure you'll have no problem being awake either.

Seconded. I caught the Mayweather v Ortiz fight as baby flyweight was up and about at 4 am and I was as fresh as a daisy. Fisrt time I tihnk I've watched a fight at that time and been stone cold sober.

Re Tunney, I have read that later on in his life that he did regret the fact that he had alienated the press whilst heavyweight champion. He wasn't necessarily happy with the press attention but later accepted that they were just doing their job and that they were obliged to ask questions, regardless of whether or not Tunney thoguht they were stupid questions. He didn't mind that he was percieved as aloof but he did mind that he had added to that perception by his behaviour towards the press.