JJ Hanrahan

First topic message reminder :

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10110.php

An interview with the young Munster and Ireland U20 centre.

Do people think that he should be getting a go in the Munster team. We need centres and he is doing well.

I've been a big believer in his potential and hoped this seasons would see him get game time.

TOL to perpignan apparently.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

profitius wrote:Chris Farrell, Eoin Griffin, Darren Cave and Luke Marshall would be the best center prospects also. EOM is just a bit too small IMO, Earls is a back 3 player and very good one at that, Spence doesn't have the skill level for international rugby and McFadden is a jack of all trades master of none but a excellent player to have on the bench. Brendan Macken, like Spence, doesn't have the skill level.

Glas a du wrote:When do players peak? I'd say backs 22, back row 25, front row 30. So why do you need to watch players pass their peak at regional level?

Depends. Intelligent and skillful players have longer careers than those who rely on physicality.

I don't know how you can say Spence hasn't got the skill level required if you watched him against the dragons. Or last year at 13. I don't think you can base the fact he hasn't the skill level on his performances all of this season at 12, with one at 13, since that isn't his position.

Maybe I'm underestimating him, Rory but I can only judge him on what I've seen. From an Ireland point of view I think Luke Marshall, Cave and Farrell look to have a better chance of making it. Ulster do seem to have an endless supply of centers!

I think a new coach could get the best from spence. I think Schmidt certainly could. Not ready yet though.

Yeah but I honestly don't see how Farrell has displayed anymore skill than Spence at all. Did you see Spence last season? I could see why you don't think he has the skill set if based on all of his performances at 12 before christmas. But I honestly think Spence is the most talented of the lot. He is also the most physical. As I said before, I hope it is Cave and then Spence to be in possession of the irish 13 shirt.

Standulstermen wrote:I think a new coach could get the best from spence. I think Schmidt certainly could. Not ready yet though.

Agree with this entirely.

I think Griffin could actually be the best of the lot however playing for connacht isnt exactly the best way to show of to Kidney. After him i gotta say even as a leinster man Spence would my pick (ahead of O'Malley). But for the time being Cave and Earls are our best 13s

Its hard to say Golden. Griffen has looked fairly impressive when i have seen him but would need to see more to judge.

I would counter your argument saying it is relatively easy to look good in a mediocre connacht backline but like i say i dont see enough of him. He will certainly be in the mix.

I have some sympathy with Rory in that Spence has shown the ability to offload and even if he doesnt have a great pass he can do it. He (much like a lot of Ulsters youngsters) arent empowered enough to play their natural game and at times they look more frightened of making a mistake.

i have to confess to being a lot more envious of the freedom with which Leinsters youngsters play but i digress.

The one thing Spence does have over nearly every other centre in ireland is his physicality (and i include the senior players in that statement). Which is easier to coach; a young player to develop skills or a young player to increase his physicality?

On the one hand you could argue that the other options need to put a bit of weight on, but it is hard to coach the ferocity that spence hits with. As i say i do think spence has the tools to play a more skillful game but im not sure the current coaches at Ulster can get it out of him. His attitude seems spot on but does he have the top two inches? Im not sure.

My own choice at the minute would be Cave who i think is head and shoulders above the other young guys at present and displays the nous i think is lacking (at the minute) from some of our options. Hanrahan and Marshall (potentially Farrell) have it too but they are minimum 18 months away.

For the summer tour i wouldnt mind seeing how McFadden and Cave go in tandem. I saw them a couple of times for the A's and was impressed.

I was also hoping to see McFadden and Cave as our centre partnership this 6 nations and for the foreseeable future. I think there is a nice balance there. Even though I rate Spence highly, I think Cave should start at 13 for Ulster and that will actually be a good thing for Spence too. I do think over the past few games I have seen that he has been trying to show the awareness and creativity that Cave possesses.

He doesnt have more awareness than Cave though Rory. You can tell that by the lines they take.

What he is trying to show is that he can take contact on his terms and manage to get the ball away irrespective of the tackle. He did it once in the first half against cardiff. gilroy unfrortunately slipped and Cardiff got the turnover but he needs to know when to do it.

When he gave the ball to Gilroy, Craig wasnt in a position to do anything with it. Thats the nous i am talking about. He needs to be more circumspect in this regard but he is clearly trying and a lot of this will come with experience.

Standulstermen wrote:He doesnt have more awareness than Cave though Rory. You can tell that by the lines they take.

What he is trying to show is that he can take contact on his terms and manage to get the ball away irrespective of the tackle. He did it once in the first half against cardiff. gilroy unfrortunately slipped and Cardiff got the turnover but he needs to know when to do it.

When he gave the ball to Gilroy, Craig wasnt in a position to do anything with it. Thats the nous i am talking about. He needs to be more circumspect in this regard but he is clearly trying and a lot of this will come with experience.

No I don't think he does have Cave's awareness, which is why I feel he would benefit being behind him and learning from him. Cave would be a pretty great mentor to have at 13. He has a real rugby mind, and is a brilliant defensive organiser. Like I've said, the best two 13s in Ireland are from Ulster IMO. Hopefully Kidney will agree with me eventually

Any progress to report?

Nothing really. Its too soon to tell.

He has graduated from his "Academy Contract" and is now on a "Development Contract".

Munster have listed him on their website as being a centre not a flyahlf - http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/10582.php

I am quite optimistic he will get good gametime. He has never played any rugby for Munster in the Pro 12 from what I believe.

The regions should play more friendlies. The exiles teams for a start.

Just to fill in since Feb on him, he was shortlisted as Young International Player of the Year at the World Cup playing at 10.

Here is his highlights reel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQIxpgjswdo

He has had some fantastic games at 12 as well though. I don't think it is clear where he is best yet.

It's a disgrace that he hasn't been capped for Munster, you'll lose him at this rate.

Glas a du wrote:It's a disgrace that he hasn't been capped for Munster, you'll lose him at this rate.

Yep, and a few other players from the other provinces too. Ireland are so bad at bringing through talented youngsters.

Glas a du wrote:It's a disgrace that he hasn't been capped for Munster, you'll lose him at this rate.

He has been playing B+I Cup (Munster won it this season). Also playing for UL Bohs at 10. He is still in college (just finished 2nd year?) in Limerick, so I presume they are taking that into account as well. He will be 20 at the end of the month - plenty of time.

JJ Hanrahan sounds like a crime author.

Sin é wrote:

Glas a du wrote:It's a disgrace that he hasn't been capped for Munster, you'll lose him at this rate.

He has been playing B+I Cup (Munster won it this season). Also playing for UL Bohs at 10. He is still in college (just finished 2nd year?) in Limerick, so I presume they are taking that into account as well. He will be 20 at the end of the month - plenty of time.

Still - when you consider how young players are getting capped at national level for some countries, even our provinces are leaving it rather late. I think this year Munster must play Hanrahan a considerable amount. It would be a real waste not to.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Glas a du wrote:It's a disgrace that he hasn't been capped for Munster, you'll lose him at this rate.

He has been playing B+I Cup (Munster won it this season). Also playing for UL Bohs at 10. He is still in college (just finished 2nd year?) in Limerick, so I presume they are taking that into account as well. He will be 20 at the end of the month - plenty of time.

Still - when you consider how young players are getting capped at national level for some countries, even our provinces are leaving it rather late. I think this year Munster must play Hanrahan a considerable amount. It would be a real waste not to.

I don't know what the rush is. I don't think it any harm to prepare for if rugby doesn't work out - all it takes is one injury or take Gavin Henson (dob 02/82). Young Inter. Player of the Year in 2001, capped by Wales in 2001 and finished by about age 25.

Compare him to Dan Carter (both 30 now). Carter (dob 05/03/82) had his debut for Canterbury in 2002 and 2003 for Crusaders & NZ against Wales in 2003 - 2 years behind Henson's career.

I know whose career worked out best and its worth noting that Penney had a hand in Carter's career as he was head of the Canterbury Academy back then.

If he is potentially ready for a higher level of rugby, and is potentially the best option at 12 for both Munster and Ireland (a position that we aren't great in) then he should be developed asap. Why wait? You are again using random examples to suit your own argument. I could give you a number of players who started very young and are world class before most of our players have even been capped yet.

I think there were some other factors in Hensons career declining.

Hanrahan needs gametime sooner rather than later. I hope to see him get a start in a few Pro12 games and see where he goes from there.

Notch wrote:I think there were some other factors in Hensons career declining.

Hanrahan needs gametime sooner rather than later. I hope to see him get a start in a few Pro12 games and see where he goes from there.

The factors were that it (rugby) probably all came too easy for him. If he had to swat for a degree it might have helped to keep his feet on the ground until he was more mature and he would have something else to fall back on.

I'm sure Hanrahan will get gametime during the year, but I'd hate too see the kind of pressure that was put on Paddy Jackson being put on him.

SinE, I think 10-15 appearances in the Rabo and a few appearances off the bench in Europe would be excellent and would not amount to much pressure.

Then he tours USA with Ireland in the Summer because a) its only the USA and b) the other lads are with the Lions.

Then he comes back and its no longer presure. He is an Irish international who has played Heineken Cup and Pro 12 a fair bit and he is going in alongside the now "experienced" international Conor Murray.

"I'm sure Hanrahan will get gametime during the year, but I'd hate too see the kind of pressure that was put on Paddy Jackson being put on him."

Sin - you do realise these players want to become professional rugby players? They are dying for the opportunity to represent their province/country at the highest level. They aren't babies like, so why this mentality of bubble wrapping them?

Plus they have to learn to deal with pressure. The same as anyone else their age who is under pressure to achieve the best grades they can, or get the best job they can etc. Pressure is just something they have to adapt to, otherwise they won't be rugby players.

JJ hurry up and save us from the medicority lad!

Save us from Earls and McFadden!...... .......

And Sin E..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I'm sure Hanrahan will get gametime during the year, but I'd hate too see the kind of pressure that was put on Paddy Jackson being put on him."

Sin - you do realise these players want to become professional rugby players? They are dying for the opportunity to represent their province/country at the highest level. They aren't babies like, so why this mentality of bubble wrapping them?

They need to serve their time though and earn their place, not be just given it. Hanrahan needs to be as good, if not better than who he is replacing in the HCup (the team is owed that). He can develop all he likes in the Rabo.

He is arguably as good as what we have at inside centre. I wouldn't mind seeing him start at 10 either.

And who is ahead of him, Sin? Downey and Dineen? Hanrahan already looks more talented than both. I'm not afraid to say he is a better player despite having far less experience. I know who I would rather have play at 12 in my team, and who will be the best player in the long run (which I think would take maybe a season for him to prove he is better than those two).

Players don't need to enter some sort of experience ladder to find out if they are ready. Hanrahan was JWC nominee for player of the tournament. He has already proved he has the talent. It will not take long for him to earn his shirt. He can gain experience against the best opposition. Not holding tackle bags.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Plus they have to learn to deal with pressure. The same as anyone else their age who is under pressure to achieve the best grades they can, or get the best job they can etc. Pressure is just something they have to adapt to, otherwise they won't be rugby players.

JJ would feel lots of suitable pressure playing for UL Bohs (a level they have a good chance of succeeding at first of all). I've no doubt Sherry & Murray felt the pressure playing for Garryowen - I think they only won about 3 or 4 games all that season.

You're right Rory but to be fair on Dineen, he has only played 7 first team games for Munster, and only started 3 times. He found it tough to get in with Mafi avaiable all the time and Johne Murphy used there and Keatley once or twice. He will struggle with Downey there too though. He is kind of a prototype of the centre some want us to play.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Plus they have to learn to deal with pressure. The same as anyone else their age who is under pressure to achieve the best grades they can, or get the best job they can etc. Pressure is just something they have to adapt to, otherwise they won't be rugby players.

JJ would feel lots of suitable pressure playing for UL Bohs (a level they have a good chance of succeeding at first of all). I've no doubt Sherry & Murray felt the pressure playing for Garryowen - I think they only won about 3 or 4 games all that season.

Please don't tell me you are comparing playing amateur rugby to professional games.

Well, you can enjoy watching your young players get the experience and exposure they need at that level, while everyone else is busy scoring tries and tearing the place up at HEC/international level..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:And who is ahead of him, Sin? Downey and Dineen? Hanrahan already looks more talented than both. I'm not afraid to say he is a better player despite having far less experience. I know who I would rather have play at 12 in my team, and who will be the best player in the long run (which I think would take maybe a season for him to prove he is better than those two).

Players don't need to enter some sort of experience ladder to find out if they are ready. Hanrahan was JWC nominee for player of the tournament. He has already proved he has the talent. It will not take long for him to earn his shirt. He can gain experience against the best opposition. Not holding tackle bags.

Danny Barnes played at 12 as well. JJ got his nomination at 10.
Tyler Bleyendaal who was a runner up for Int. Player of the Year 2 years ago (think he captained the baby blacks as well) is now 22, He was 21 before he made his provincial debut for Canterbury & this season he has 3 super rugby caps for the Crusaders. Tom Taylor is another one who was 22 before he made his Canterbury debut.

Looks like Penney doesn't rush anyone.

Yes, but the difference is those guys live in NZ and the guys ahead of them are both young and very good players. They have a lot of competition. At 12 there aren't so many options here in Ireland. Hanrahan may have won his nomination at 10, but as you can see from his highlight reel a lot of the best things he did involved exploiting gaps and his fantastic playmaking.

His kicking for territory got a bit inconsistent as the tournament carried on, but again he is young so I certainly will not be hard on him for that. He can develop that with experience and pressure.

I seriously don't understand why you don't want Hanrahan to feature for Munster ASAP. It is honestly baffling.

It's because everything is fine with ROG and Downey there

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, but the difference is those guys live in NZ and the guys ahead of them are both young and very good players. They have a lot of competition. At 12 there aren't so many options here in Ireland. Hanrahan may have won his nomination at 10, but as you can see from his highlight reel a lot of the best things he did involved exploiting gaps and his fantastic playmaking.

His kicking for territory got a bit inconsistent as the tournament carried on, but again he is young so I certainly will not be hard on him for that. He can develop that with experience and pressure.

I seriously don't understand why you don't want Hanrahan to feature for Munster ASAP. It is honestly baffling.

Who was ahead of Bleyenthal & Taylor? I don't think Taylor made the U20s world cup, yet Penney didn't even give Bleyenthal a few games that season.

I think Munster's need is greater at 10 than 12, so even though I'd expect Hanrahan to spend a bit of time playing at inside centre, I doubt if he will end up there as Keatley is ok, but not great. Sooner JJ gets his hand on the ball at 10, the sooner he can do something with it.

I want Hanrahan to feature for Munster - just don't want him to be too pressurised to perform in HCup rugby - thats all.

Thomond wrote:It's because everything is fine with ROG and Downey there

I'd prefer to give Keatley a chance to be at least at the same standard as Paul Warwick before throwing him out with the bathwater and ROG rides off into the sunset.

"Who was ahead of Bleyenthal & Taylor?"

Do I really need to answer that mate? Two 10s for the Crusaders and you are asking me who is ahead of them?

One of them is that fella who played half a year with Perpignan isn't he? If I remember right he got injured and was a bit of a flop. As for that other guy, he is most remembered for getting injured in the World Cup ins't he?

Yeah, unfortunately there was this guy called Donald who was always rated much higher. He won the world cup for NZ.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Who was ahead of Bleyenthal & Taylor?"

Do I really need to answer that mate? Two 10s for the Crusaders and you are asking me who is ahead of them?

We're talking about Canterbury, not the Crusaders - these guys are not getting much of a luck-in with the Crusaders. Carter hasn't played for Canterbury since '09 (after his stint with USAP) so he hasn't been blocking them. There is no reason why Penney wouldn't have rotated Taylor & Bleyenthal anyway.

Players like Carter & McCaw rarely play for Canterbury nowadays (usually if coming back from a long injury).

Taylor is currently second choice 10 at the Crusaders. He was first choice for a while with Carter at 12 for the majority of the season. Why would he play for Canterbury when he is second choice for the Crusaders?

And before this season you had Colin Slade ahead of these guys. I really don't get what point you are making with these two.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Taylor is currently second choice 10 at the Crusaders. He was first choice for a while with Carter at 12 for the majority of the season. Why would he play for Canterbury when he is second choice for the Crusaders?

I'm talking about Bleyenthal being shortlisted for Inter. Jun Player of the year in 2010 (2 years ago). He also captained the Baby Blacks to a World Cup.

Having won a Junior world cup in 2010, his first cap for Canterbury (under Penney) was in 2011 (a year and a bit after he getting his nomination and captaining the Baby Blacks to a World Cup).

Bleyenthal made his Crusaders debut in Feb. this year (Crusaders lost 2 out of 3) - nearly 2 years after his exploits at the Junior World Cup.

Yes, nearly 2 years after, but again you are ignoring what I am saying. In those two years he has had massive competition at 10, so there was no reason for him to feature. Hanrahan on the otherhand might be the best option Munster (and possibly Ireland) have. Flip me Sin, I am more excited to see Hanrahan featuring than you are!

Right I was thinking about this yesterday...

I'd have Hanaran straight into the Irish senior squad on the strength of his U-20s performances, maybe even Henderson too.

Forget about the provinces, Wolfhounds, summer tours to secondtiersville.

Get these lads straight into the Ireland training camps and if they impress straight onto the field.

We're far to bloody conservative. Get these talented 18 year olds running out at Landsdowne in the 6N and AIs.

Its proven time and time again, JW, Lewsey etc. on the tour of hell, BOD and the golden generation. Every AB and Australian great you can think off. The current Welsh side.

International rugby is the breeding ground for international players, not the AIB or even the provinces.

Hanaran, Madigan, Kearney jr, Gilroy..these guys can breath new life into the Ireland side....now, not in 2 seasons time.

Rory, I'm very excited about JJ as well. I just don't want him rushed and to end up another Danny Cirpriani, Henson etc.

Rods - all very good to bring all these guys in, but bearing in mind the stick that Conor Murray gets from the so-called fans, do you think they will be able to cope with the abuse they will undoubtedly gets?

For instance, I'm not too sure I'd be looking forward to the reaction to Sexton being dropped* for JJ bearing in mind the reaction to 30+ Reddan not starting

*or is your intention that he should hold tacklebags. If thats the case they are all better back with their provinces getting gametime.