Throwing down the Gauntlet.

First topic message reminder :

Every year the Six Nations is the birth place for rising stars and the platform to showcase young talent. This six nations may have had some dire games but when looking a little closer there has have been some individuals with hard work rates, big runs, electric offloads and good vision who have brightened the most dreary of matches.

A lack-luster England survived with less possession and territory against a game Scottish side who if they had but for a little luck or a little more patience could have pulled through. On the other side of the coin we have seen an on form Welsh side with electric back line play run most defences into oblivion, their six tries in 2 matches is proof of exactly how dangerous their back line combination is.

So who has impressed? Who are the players staking a claim, the young inexperienced players who should become regular fixtures in the starting line-up for their respective countries?

David Denton age 22, 6ft 5inches 249lb
As a back rower Denton has impressed me in both games so far with his ball carrying ability. Setting up the ball in the tackle and his offloading capability, looking at his match stats of 9 passes, 35 runs, 117 meters, 2 clean breaks, 4 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 3 turn overs, 5 tackles and 1 missed, he may be more of an attacking force than a Schalk Burger type defensive demon, but it is early stages yet and he is certain to work on his defensive work rate.

Alex Cuthbert, age 21, 6ft 6inches, 229lb
While Cuthbert may have had a quiet game against Ireland his performance against Scotland was a revelation, outshining his teammate George North in nearly every department. His match stats of 1 try, 1 try assist, 3 passes, 8 runs, 84 meters ran, 2 clean breaks, 3 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 1 turn over and 6 tackles with none missed, shows he is a playmaker with the ability to beat defenders and the necessary vision.

George North age 19, 6ft 4 inches, 229lb
Now a regular fixture in the Welsh team, his match stats of 1 try, 1 try assist, 4 passes, 11 runs, 85 meters, 1 clean break, 8 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 2 turn overs, 2 tackles and 1 missed tackle would suggest that George North is a very effective runner with ball in hand, and who can forget his incredible offload to Jonathan Davies against Ireland.

If there is one criticism of him, where there is room for improvement then it is his work rate. Granted he got injured in the Scotland match, but in 119 minutes of play, 11 runs and only 2 tackles completed would suggest that Warren Gatland needs to have a quiet word with this rising star.

Jonathan Davies, age 23, 6ft 1 inch, 227lb
The first time Davies impressed me was during the world cup. He showed an eye for a gap, an ability to wriggle out of tackles and a good turn of pace, complimenting the raw running power of Jamie Roberts well. His first two matches of the six nations have cemented that impression on me and with match stats of 2 tries, 1 try assist, 4 kicks, 10 passes, 22 runs, 156 meters, 2 clean breaks, 2 defenders beaten, 1 offload, 17 tackles and only 1 missed has shown consistency, a high work rate and sublime skills with ball in hand.


Richard Gray, age 22, 6ft 10inches, 285lb
With 8 passes, 23 runs, 89 meters, 2 clean break, 3 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 15 tackles, 0 missed tackles and 11 line outs won Richard Gray is the quintessential modern day lock, he is tall enough to be a world class line out jumper, he is big enough to break tackles and beat defenders and his work rate makes him a very good defender. It is still early days, but what I have seen from this young man would put a smile on any Scottish coach's face.

Stuart Hogg age 19, 5ft 11 inches 194lb
Perhaps too soon to tell, but Stuart Hogg on debut came off the bench in the 15th minute of the Wales vs Scotland game and has shown very good promise for such a young lad. During the second half in particular he ran the Welsh defence ragged with match stats of 2 kicks, 2 passes, 10 runs, 82 meters, 2 clean breaks, 2 defenders beaten, 3 turn overs, 5 tackles and none missed. It would be to Scotland’s advantage to develop this young man as they need someone with his skills in a back line who all too often have shown they do not possess the necessary patience and execution to finish moves.

Ross Rennie age 25, 6ft 1 inch 213lb
Almost unnoticed Rennie has been the star of the show, his match stats of 22 passes, 31 runs, 107 meters, 4 clean breaks, 5 defenders beaten, 6 offloads, 2 turn overs, 28 tackles and only 3 missed shows that in combination with Gray and Denton, they will be the catalyst for a revival of Scottish rugby. He has an astonishing work rate, he must be close to the top of the list as far as ball carriers are concerned and yet as an additional line out option his ability is evident for all to see.

There are of course other players who have continued to impress, such as Leigh Halfpenny and Rhys Priestland, but they are old hands now, established in their squads, and this is of course not about them, but rather a celebration of the new stock, those guys that in future will be able to stake their claims on the international stage.

I don't see how stats aren't useful in assessing performance for both players and teams. Suggesting that they aren't useful because they are fallible doesn't wash. That just means that they should be used indicatively, and as an objective starting point for exploration and discussion. Which of course is the case anyway. No one is suggesting that stats by themselves should be the sole measure of performance.

As an example, a team getting slow ball from rucks could be due to any number of reasons - scrum half slow in getting the ball out, players not hitting enough rucks or being slow to get there, not getting over the gain line, etc. Coaching staff can of course diagnose the issue on the basis of what they see, but they will do so from a subjective stance and will bring any biases to their decision. If they have more information, however, they are making a better decision.

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
But one aspect of your theory astounds me, how is it that when our players are offside or commit fouls, the referees never miss that?

Surprised by you, biltong...thought you would be up to speed on that one. Of course the referees know when we've committed fouls.... no player ever tosses himself to the ground. It's only reasonable to assume an Irish/SA is the guy wot did the crime. As for the offside rule..simple explanation too; the ref knows that players who think they are invisible are always going to try it on. He blows his whistle automatically.

sorry, I had clients and got busy, so I am only responding now. Yes, I knew all that, just wanted to gather some more Statistics on your opinion.

doctor_grey wrote:Just a little too cute, Biltong. 'tis all.

Besides I want to see some good blood curdling chest thumping bewtixt the nations, not some smiley icon kissing another one. Where goes the humour (and a fair bit of frustration) if we all simply get along and respect each other? Hmmm?

Besides, yesterday I flew back to the US from my two weeks back home and I think, when here, I get more enjoyment from the 'clash of nations' than I do at home.

getting cute is just the set up before the launch my friend, this way you lull your opponent into thinking all is well, and then you pounce.

Good for shock and awe tactics.

Ahh. I see. True deviousness (is that a word?). I feel better knowing you are only baiting the trap before snapping it shut on the head (or arse) of a poor unknowing soul.

doctor_grey wrote:Ahh. I see. True deviousness (is that a word?). I feel better knowing you are only baiting the trap before snapping it shut on the head (or arse) of a poor unknowing soul.

good, we have an understanding, you see there is a matter of 3 tests lost in Ireland over the past decade, something we don't take kindly to here in the southern tip of africa. We were asked by SARU to be nice to the Irish, they haven't been to our shores for so long, I doubt whether they can remember what sun stroke feels like. anyway getting off topic, if we are nice to them they might come, and then we will have our REVENGE.

I feel better now. Just don't tell Eirebilly.

doctor_grey wrote:I feel better now. Just don't tell Eirebilly.

He won't even notice, even if he reads this. He is under the impression I am full of jokes today.

The gravity of the situation will not be realised.

Oh I'm certain you will have Revenge - in this life or the next. But then again, our new decade resolution here in Ireland is to stop winning anything at home and to try, to really try, to win some games in the SH against SH sides.

So far the resolution is going according to plan...................... !

Thats good fly...
I see our boys are already gathering and analysing the stats from the NH sides in readiness for the irish.

From GHs school they generally do their own using all the video and analysis software available so theyll know everything about every player and potential combination coming south.

Its painstaking and often boring work but its gotta be done in todays game to keep ahead of the field where winning is now a business.

This week we kick off super rugby proper after the warmups so a busy weekend coming up in both hemispheres. For us the start of a another very long season.

Well Fly we are hoping that the politics are now done interfering with their attempts at ruining our national team's performance, so we are aiming high, world dominance is the goal and anyone standing in the way will be mere victims, those that manage to halt our progress will be shunned and frowned upon. So bring on your resolution.

What happened to Taffin Biltong, did he implode?

Or did you just wear him down with your Saffer attritional stat technique?

biltongbek wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I feel better now. Just don't tell Eirebilly.

He won't even notice, even if he reads this. He is under the impression I am full of jokes today.

The gravity of the situation will not be realised.

I am watching the pair of you

biltongbek wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
But one aspect of your theory astounds me, how is it that when our players are offside or commit fouls, the referees never miss that?

Surprised by you, biltong...thought you would be up to speed on that one. Of course the referees know when we've committed fouls.... no player ever tosses himself to the ground. It's only reasonable to assume an Irish/SA is the guy wot did the crime. As for the offside rule..simple explanation too; the ref knows that players who think they are invisible are always going to try it on. He blows his whistle automatically.

sorry, I had clients and got busy, so I am only responding now. :

Am I the only immature person who found this funny? It made me smile anyway...

You all seem a bit green to me when it comes to the welsh team

Bathman_in_London wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:
But one aspect of your theory astounds me, how is it that when our players are offside or commit fouls, the referees never miss that?

Surprised by you, biltong...thought you would be up to speed on that one. Of course the referees know when we've committed fouls.... no player ever tosses himself to the ground. It's only reasonable to assume an Irish/SA is the guy wot did the crime. As for the offside rule..simple explanation too; the ref knows that players who think they are invisible are always going to try it on. He blows his whistle automatically.

sorry, I had clients and got busy, so I am only responding now. :

Am I the only immature person who found this funny? It made me smile anyway...

Nope.

RubyGuby wrote:You all seem a bit green to me when it comes to the welsh team

I see what you did there

Sadly, yes is the answer

PJHolybloke wrote:What happened to Taffin Biltong, did he implode?

Or did you just wear him down with your Saffer attritional stat technique?

Don't know mate, it did confim to me though that I need to keep any comment or opinion of Wales to a minimum.

I'll have to be like those guys in Harry Potter, the one no one dares to talk about. But alas not for the same reasons.

eirebilly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You all seem a bit green to me when it comes to the welsh team

I see what you did there

Sadly, yes is the answer

The first ruel about fightclu............................er I mean Wales rugby is, You don't talk about it.

RubyGuby wrote:You all seem a bit green to me when it comes to the welsh team

Red...oh, suits you, sir. Suits you.

The colour of modesty

SecretFly wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:You all seem a bit green to me when it comes to the welsh team

Red...oh, suits you, sir. Suits you.

The colour of modesty

Red is also the colour for embaressing situations.

Sorry Rubyguby, had to get that one in. But I am only talking about the colour not "the one we are not supposed to talk about.

Red is the colour of EVIL!!!!!! Evil Welsh devils

Our kit is actually red, green and white, something for all occasions. The good the bad and the ugly if you like as epitomised by Halfpenny, Bradley D and Andy Powell respectively

Fussy! Ours is Green and white, so there! And SA have their new season in too, which is the usual green and gold and stuff...so like, just like seriously.... like OMG whatever, okay!

Sorry Secret but Green is definately out this year - I just spoke to Jean Paul Gok and he confirmed it

RubyGuby wrote:Sorry Secret but Green is definately out this year - I just spoke to Jean Paul Gok and he confirmed it

You believe him, you will also believe Stats aren't useful.

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Sorry Secret but Green is definately out this year - I just spoke to Jean Paul Gok and he confirmed it

You believe him, you will also believe Stats aren't useful.

Its all in the eyes

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Sorry Secret but Green is definately out this year - I just spoke to Jean Paul Gok and he confirmed it

You believe him, you will also believe Stats aren't useful.

Its all in the eyes

Yep, you look and you look until ya aiss hurts.

Well if you cant get out of this forum by using your eyes then you have no idea how forums work.....

I think I'm beginning to dislike all this humour. Back to the real issues please...a frown is developing

Sorry Fly, we will refraim from humour from now on

Ok back to the subject at hand, do you think it is safe to assess the other 4 teams for up and coming players, or will their player's statistics also offend their supporters.

Fly you and Billy can provide me with the perspective of the Irish.

Medically speaking that is known as the "Darcy Frown" Secret - There is a cure so dont worry too much

Basically Ireland are not going to do well as long as D'Arcy is continually selected at 12 biltong. Was once an excellent player but he has lost that zip and his ball skills have all but left him.

I am still waiting for Trimble to cross the line, i had him down as the tournements top try scorer

Italy - Benvenuti seems to be handling the 6N in his stride, looks like Italy have possibly their mainstay centre for years to come there.

Ireland - no one has thrown a napkin, let alone a gauntlet.

I am just a bit upset that Kidney didnt slelect Madigan or Keatley in the squad. I am a massive fan of ROG's but this was the perfect time to give one of them a chance as a replacement.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Italy - Benvenuti seems to be handling the 6N in his stride, looks like Italy have possibly their mainstay centre for years to come there.

Ireland - no one has thrown a napkin, let alone a gauntlet.

Not even a handbag?

Go right ahead with Ireland, biltong. Be as unforgiving as you need to be...plus...keep talking about the side that cannot be mentioned. Don't mind the fire that comes from the dragon..we're all used to it

I think Dave Kearney should be on and Bowe should have some bench time...Oh yes, and now that we're seeing how we'll cope without O'Driscoll..we can also throw D'arcy into that bracket and give him a break for a few games.

Kearney was brilliant under the high ball against Wales, it has been a long time since I have seen such aerial dominance, the last time was SA in the 2009 tri nations.

Fly means Kearney's younger brother biltong. He is also a very classy player and is on the verge of breaking into the first 15.

Oh, OK, don't know of him.

Keep an eye on him biltong, very very good player.

I went on to the Irish rugby website, I see there aren't many youngsters in the Irish squad though.

Eoin O'Malley age 23, uncapped
Dave Kearney age 22, uncapped
Peter O'Mahoney age 22, uncapped
Simon Zebo age 21, uncapped
Rhys Ruddock age 21, 1 cap
conor Murray age 21, 7 caps

Any I am missing?

There is some pretty good talent in the U20 side biltong. JJ Hanrahan looks to be a very good prospect and one to keep your eyes on.

Do you think these guys I mentioned will all get a run during the 6 Nations?

Connor Murray has already got a Run this 6N
Peter O'Mahoney will certainly play some part

Simon Zebo and Dave Kearney might.

biltongbek wrote:Kearney was brilliant under the high ball against Wales, it has been a long time since I have seen such aerial dominance, the last time was SA in the 2009 tri nations.

I think you're going to have to get you're stats out to back that statement

Perhaps beer clouded my judgement but other than one jump He was ok.

slartibartfast wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Kearney was brilliant under the high ball against Wales, it has been a long time since I have seen such aerial dominance, the last time was SA in the 2009 tri nations.

I think you're going to have to get you're stats out to back that statement

Perhaps beer clouded my judgement but other than one jump He was ok.

Slarti, I can remember about 3 jumps, without stats.

The highest any Irish player got on that day was 'ok'...the lowest some of them got was 'awful'.. the worst thing on display was the alleged 'gameplan'

Therefore, it shows how good we could be if we get our act together, because we were still only 3 points short of a win against a team playing out of their socks and stuffed with talent, stamina, pace and invention...oh and them very big supergiant, superfit, supertalented backs......

Go figure...now where's that thumbs up symbol? oh there it is.

biltongbek wrote:Kearney was brilliant under the high ball against Wales, it has been a long time since I have seen such aerial dominance, the last time was SA in the 2009 tri nations.

Kearney is back to his best for sure, actually I think hes playing better now than on the Lions tour. He plucked one straight out of Beales hands in the RWC too. In my opinion hes the best player under the high ball in the world right now. Ireland need to get him into the attacking line more as Leinster have done.

Dave Kearney is a serious talent. Better in attack than Rob in my opinion.