Inevitable JW comparisons

just had a small glance at an article on the beeb with Neil Jenkins comparing Owen Farell to Jonny Wilkinson
IMO OF is a different kind of 10 to JW, plays the ball through hands more often and doesnt sit as deep. Whilst i rate Farell, i think that JW is possibly the greatest FH England have had and the media have a horrible habit, of comparing any 10 we get to JW. Cipriani got the same treatment, and it affected his career. I like Farrell, think hes a good player but what has he done to justify the tag as 'the next JW' - is this some sort of mind game that Jenkins is trying to pull ahead of the england clash, why does he need to do that? why cant an up and coming English FH be himself, why does he have to be the next JW ?

just had a small glance at an article on the beeb with Neil Jenkins comparing Owen Farell to Jonny Wilkinson
IMO OF is a different kind of 10 to JW, plays the ball through hands more often and doesnt sit as deep. Whilst i rate Farell, i think that JW is possibly the greatest FH England have had and the media have a horrible habit, of comparing any 10 we get to JW. Cipriani got the same treatment, and it affected his career. I like Farrell, think hes a good player but what has he done to justify the tag as 'the next JW' - is this some sort of mind game that Jenkins is trying to pull ahead of the england clash, why does he need to do that? why cant an up and coming English FH be himself, why does he have to be the next JW ?

The Welsh were terrified of JW, as soon as his name was on the team sheet to face them, England had won the game already. JW is now retired, but the psychological damage still traumatises the Welsh. They live in fear of the next England player who appear and similarly trap them in a new hellish nightmare of embarrassing loss after embarrassing loss; so it's quite natural for someone like Jenkins to start openly comparing any new comer as he works through some exercises from his post-trauma therapy.

I am not one of Neil Jenkins biggest fans, however when he says that Owen Farrel looks simalar to JW. Well i believe him.

JW was a good kicker and so is Farrell. Neither are great players without the kicking. JW was a player you didn't want on the opposition team sheet because you knew he would kick almost every opportunity. He certainly wasn't a great 10 though.

I understand what he's saying as people forget about Jonny's early years, but at the very start of his career Wilko was a skillful attacking player as well as a kicking perfectionist. I haven't seen that in Farrell yet.

JW was a big hitting 10 IMO

doctornickolas wrote:JW was a good kicker and so is Farrell. Neither are great players without the kicking. JW was a player you didn't want on the opposition team sheet because you knew he would kick almost every opportunity. He certainly wasn't a great 10 though.

During his peak he was the best player in the world so surely he was a great 10?

I seem to remember Danny Cipriani being compared to Jonny once...and look what happened to him! The inevitable comparisons come all the time in sport and popular culture. No one can be seen on their own merits these days... In Wales, they STILL compare new younger players to Barry John. I've learnt to put it down to lazy journalism and ignore it or it'll drive me mad.

best player in the world ?? be serious. He was and still is England's most talked about player, but I maintain not a great 10.

Not a great ten? World cup winner, former record test points scorer (only recently overtaken by carter despite missing 4 years of tests due to injury), 6N record points scorer.....

Highly rated pretty much everywhere outside of Wales...

What is your criteria?

Name a better 10 at Wilko's peak.

Not that it matters, this thread is about how Farrell and JW have nothing in common.

damngoodOvalball wrote:Not a great ten? World cup winner, former record test points scorer (only recently overtaken by carter despite missing 4 years of tests due to injury), 6N record points scorer.....

Highly rated pretty much everywhere outside of Wales...

What is your criteria?

No, no. He is highly rated in Wales and is one of the greatest fly-halves to play the game.

Morgannwg wrote:

damngoodOvalball wrote:Not a great ten? World cup winner, former record test points scorer (only recently overtaken by carter despite missing 4 years of tests due to injury), 6N record points scorer.....

Highly rated pretty much everywhere outside of Wales...

What is your criteria?

No, no. He is highly rated in Wales and is one of the greatest fly-halves to play the game.

Fair dues Morgan, and welshmen of a certain age, certainly know a good FH when they see one

miteyironpaw wrote:The Welsh were terrified of JW, as soon as his name was on the team sheet to face them, England had won the game already. JW is now retired, but the psychological damage still traumatises the Welsh. They live in fear of the next England player who appear and similarly trap them in a new hellish nightmare of embarrassing loss after embarrassing loss; so it's quite natural for someone like Jenkins to start openly comparing any new comer as he works through some exercises from his post-trauma therapy.

mitey,

As a Welsh fan who has seen far to any tonkings at the hands of England than I care to remember JW never filled me with terror, more our own indiscipline which could have been said about any side who had a kicker as consistent as JW.

The one play of recent times who really did fill me with dread was Greenwood, he seemed to score against for fun and I never remember him having a bad game aginst us.

doctornickolas wrote:best player in the world ?? be serious. He was and still is England's most talked about player, but I maintain not a great 10.

From about 2001-2003 he was without doubt the best player in the world, his kicking from the tee was sublime as was his kicking from hand. He was and outstanding defender and had neat footwork. His passing was good also and despite not being the most creative 10, he put the attacking threats at his disposal into the right places. He did everything that was needed of him to perfection at that time of his career.

I don't think any one is questioning that he was the greatest player ever in the game, and is still the bechmark for comprises a perfect 10.

SIR Jonny was the greatest number 10 in the world for a few years, and certainly the best England have ever produced, and to be honest his record speaks for itself. Nuff said!!

I also remarked last weekend, that Farrell reminds me of him at least in his kicking style, and to be honest he could do worse than use JW as his Role model!!

Jonny will be a lightening rod for years to come, so let's not worry. The vast majority of Rugby players and fans around the world all recognise Jonny as a great fly half, probably the best England produced, one of the great ones in Rugby history and for a while possibly the best in the game. He is also recognised as a tragic story due to all his injuries - what might have been? He revolutionised his position and the professional approach to training. So its really unfair to compare a young player to someone with that kind of stature.

On the other hand, I look at it as a form of flattery for Farrell that he has aspects of his game which some people feel at this stage could possibly be comparable. A nice compliment and probably not much more. On Farrell's behalf, I hope he can get to Jonny's level, or at least close. Wishing him the best.

Final point about Jonny. Many people really don't remember how he played in those early years. Never the most dynamic runner, but he played much flatter than in the latter years, and was a pretty aggressive player. He always tackled like a fiend, but was also not shy to take the ball up with the same energy. He hit hard attacking and defending. That was a long tme ago now. That means I am getting older, too.

miteyironpaw wrote:I don't think any one is questioning that he was the greatest player ever in the game, and is still the bechmark for comprises a perfect 10.

"the greatest player ever in the game".
And you are CONSTANTLY accusing Welsh posters of "arrogance".
Dear God, the mind boggles, the hypocrisy is astonishing.

Atleast Johnny Wilkinson can say, He was part of that winning team of the 2003 rugby world cup.

Unlike Dan Carter, who played no part in the 2011 rugby world cup final.

Awwww maj, give us a break. Pretty soon your constant harking back to 2003 (9 years and counting) is going to sound as bad as the Welsh who harp on about the '70s. And before you know it is WILL be as long. It'll go by in the blink of an eye you know.................I'd hate for you to be going on about it in 2050 like uncle Albert..."during the war..........."

As an Englishman I am quite ashamed of mightyironopaw

I would say there was a lot more to JW's game than the kicking and the tackling - there was the passing too. He could be like a machine. He was however always best with a player (like Greenwood) who could make a lot of the decisions. Considering what he did achieve and was capable of it seems funny to say he didnt seem to have much of a rugby brain - but that to me is the best way of putting it.

Anyway - the best player in the world at that time was probably Richard Hill.

Farrell - does some things very well and I hope he has a big future. He will however have to be something very special to keep some of the others from his generation away from his shirt

lost in wales - agree. Richard Hill an awesome and underrated player. (from a welsh realist). You obviously know your rugby. Unlike a lot of your compatriots (starting with mitey and working down). May the better team win next weekend my man

I think Wilkinson was brilliant, and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Farrell is not a flashy type of player (not yet anyway) but he has shown he has the coolness to compete at the top level and he is a fantastic kicker. He also seems very solid in defence. The comparison makes sense, and I do think Farrell should be the english 10. His attacking prowess can only improve with age and experience.

Of course he was brilliant. No-one is doubting that. He had a sense of professionalism and an obsessive quality to his practise and training that we'll probably never see again. No issue with that. Just with WUMs saying he was the greatest payer ever to have played the game.

tatterd wrote:Of course he was brilliant. No-one is doubting that. He had a sense of professionalism and an obsessive quality to his practise and training that we'll probably never see again. No issue with that. Just with WUMs saying he was the greatest payer ever to have played the game.

There was one person who said that, who is known to say things like that a lot. Chill out bro, don't take it so seriously

Comparisons are made with young up and coming players all of the time across all sports...the next JW, the next Messi, there's a Roosters player out here being dubbed the next SBW!!

Comparisons happen and shouldn't be over analysed IMO.

As for Wilko, yeah he was pretty awesome in a pretty awesome team at the time, but he was even brilliant with Newcastle as they became poorer. One if the better 10's of all time...and that is a long list.

Massively agree with Greenwood and Hill comments too!!

lostinwales wrote:As an Englishman I am quite ashamed of mightyironopaw

I would say there was a lot more to JW's game than the kicking and the tackling - there was the passing too. He could be like a machine. He was however always best with a player (like Greenwood) who could make a lot of the decisions. Considering what he did achieve and was capable of it seems funny to say he didnt seem to have much of a rugby brain - but that to me is the best way of putting it.

Anyway - the best player in the world at that time was probably Richard Hill.

Farrell - does some things very well and I hope he has a big future. He will however have to be something very special to keep some of the others from his generation away from his shirt

No need lostin, he's not exactly English.......

Of course JW was a great player. He was also one of the best goal kickers ever to be seen. Thats what struck fear into the opposition.
To say hes the best player ever is ludicrous. Hes far from the best fly half ever, I'd certainly put Carter, Bennet & John before him for a start.
He suited an England side who dominated up front and looked for penalties to win games. If he were Irish, Welsh or Scottish he would never have been a WC winner and the English fans would now be stating how he'd couldn't be rated as one of the best as he doesn't have a WC winners medal.

A great player but best in the world? Nah.

I'll give Wilko a plug.I think he's the best English flyhalf I've seen. He's a player, that as an opposition fan, you feared at his peak. His principle strengths being his consistency. A good kicker, tactically and for goal, a resolute tackler, and he could distribute the ball. I think he was underrated down here for much of his career.

I think you run into problems when you rate him the greatest. Everyone has their favourites. Even at his peak, there still the likes of Mehrtons and Larkam.

For me one of the greats. The greatest? Probably not.

JW geatest player in the world....yeah right.

To put things into perspective,Farrell is only just starting,EVERY player who started at FH for England.Has been measured against Johnny Wilkinson,was JW best in the World at his peek?NO.
JW was/is a great kicker,arguably the hardest tackling FH the game has seen but as a FH he was just Good.
Carlos Spencer was a flawed Genius at FH,Andrew Merthens THE best in the world at the time.
No one can take anything away from JW,but because he holds a RWC medal or is leading points scorer is NOT the only criteria.
Neil Jenkins was a great Goal Kicker,and held all sorts of records,but is well down the list of the best Welsh FH`s i`vwe seen.
Richard Sharpe was arguably the best Enland FH i`ve seen,but no great Goal kicker.
Morne Steyn is a great Goal Kicker,given the number of starts JW had he will break all records.HE isn`t even the best FH in SA,let alone the World.
Compare Farrell with the early career of Dan Carter,Carter was playing Fh,FB,Ic or Wing.For Canterbury,Crusaders,All Blacks to accomodate Andrew Merthens.Carter over a similar number of matches to JW now holds the points record,BUT he scores tries too,how many did JW score.?
Just because a player is a great goal kicker doesn`t make him a great player think Okey Geffin and Props,outstanding goal kicker just a good Prop[by the then best Bok standards].

I hadn't seen anything of Farrell 'til this 6Ns and I must admit it struck me during the Italy game. Not only does he have the Jonny crouch when place kicking (many do, these days) but he's got the same steely determination in his eyes. Or so it seemed to me. His defence is pretty good too. But whether he offers anything much in attack - we will see. Still early days yet.

blackcanelion wrote:I'll give Wilko a plug.I think he's the best English flyhalf I've seen. He's a player, that as an opposition fan, you feared at his peak. His principle strengths being his consistency. A good kicker, tactically and for goal, a resolute tackler, and he could distribute the ball. I think he was underrated down here for much of his career.

I think you run into problems when you rate him the greatest. Everyone has their favourites. Even at his peak, there still the likes of Mehrtons and Larkam.

For me one of the greats. The greatest? Probably not.

I agree with you when you start talking in absolutes like "greatest". I always thought Larkham was terrific. As I thought Merts was terrific. And so Jonny was terrific. All very different players. To me, they were all amongst the small pool of best ever 10s.

Rugby really is the ultimate team sport where it becomes hard to discriminate the "greatest". So many things come into account where I really believe to annoint anyone as greatest is impossible. Becomes very subjective. It ain't the 100 yard dash. Which is why I never mention any Rugby player as greatest or greatest in their position. Rather as amongst the greatest. That said, the closest in my opinion would be Jonah Lomu, but even then, I can't do it.

The media love this stuff since it sells papers and advertising.

PJHolybloke wrote:

lostinwales wrote:As an Englishman I am quite ashamed of mightyironopaw

I would say there was a lot more to JW's game than the kicking and the tackling - there was the passing too. He could be like a machine. He was however always best with a player (like Greenwood) who could make a lot of the decisions. Considering what he did achieve and was capable of it seems funny to say he didnt seem to have much of a rugby brain - but that to me is the best way of putting it.

Anyway - the best player in the world at that time was probably Richard Hill.

Farrell - does some things very well and I hope he has a big future. He will however have to be something very special to keep some of the others from his generation away from his shirt

No need lostin, he's not exactly English.......

That would explain a lot. I had wondered but not spotted anything conclusive. What put you onto him - other than his being so completely one eyed?

On topic, I think a lot of us have noticed similarities between OF and JW. His kicking technique is similar, his defence is strong and there's some at least of the same grim determination. Wouldn't be at all surprised to find Jonny was a hero of his, growing up, and he deliberately modeled himself on JW. Given how often we've said Jonny is a great role model for a young lad, we can't really complain about that!

I think that the comparrisons are coming from how JW played in the latter stages of his career and not across his whole career. In the latter stages, JW was mainly a kicker and great defender which is what Farrell actually looks like.

In the early stages of his career, JW was a very good attacking 10.

What JW did better than any 10 that i have ever seen was turn defence into attack by means of big hits and turn overs. He also had a great awareness and his ball skills were very good. That is something that Farrell has yet to show but he certainly has the makings of being a good solid 10, noth spectacular but very solid.

As for JW not being a player to fear, i dont buy that because as an Irish fan i used to dread seeing his name on an English team sheat.

eirebilly wrote:I think that the comparrisons are coming from how JW played in the latter stages of his career and not across his whole career. In the latter stages, JW was mainly a kicker and great defender which is what Farrell actually looks like.

In the early stages of his career, JW was a very good attacking 10.

Exactly what I was saying, people forget his early days and the skill that was coached out of him by England.

As for those saying he isn't the best player ever, of course he isn't. No one has even stated that, so stop trying to turn this into another abusive thread please children!

Great stuff by Jenkins. The headgames have commenced. The Wilko tag is a poison chalice, something few future England 10's will be able to live up to.

Now sit back, see Farrell and England fold and watch Wales hoist the Crown

Cowshot wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

lostinwales wrote:As an Englishman I am quite ashamed of mightyironopaw

I would say there was a lot more to JW's game than the kicking and the tackling - there was the passing too. He could be like a machine. He was however always best with a player (like Greenwood) who could make a lot of the decisions. Considering what he did achieve and was capable of it seems funny to say he didnt seem to have much of a rugby brain - but that to me is the best way of putting it.

Anyway - the best player in the world at that time was probably Richard Hill.

Farrell - does some things very well and I hope he has a big future. He will however have to be something very special to keep some of the others from his generation away from his shirt

No need lostin, he's not exactly English.......

That would explain a lot. I had wondered but not spotted anything conclusive. On topic, I think a lot of us have noticed similarities between OF and JW. His kicking technique is similar, his defence is strong and there's some at least of the What put you onto him - other than his being so completely one eyed?

same grim determination. Wouldn't be at all surprised to find Jonny was a hero of his, growing up, and he deliberately modeled himself on JW. Given how often we've said Jonny is a great role model for a young lad, we can't really complain about that!

Wtriting style Cowshot, it's as good as a fingerprint, well, almost. The "England fanatic" angle is just one example of a cracking sense of humour, funny guy.

PJHolybloke wrote:

lostinwales wrote:As an Englishman I am quite ashamed of mightyironopaw

I would say there was a lot more to JW's game than the kicking and the tackling - there was the passing too. He could be like a machine. He was however always best with a player (like Greenwood) who could make a lot of the decisions. Considering what he did achieve and was capable of it seems funny to say he didnt seem to have much of a rugby brain - but that to me is the best way of putting it.

Anyway - the best player in the world at that time was probably Richard Hill.

Farrell - does some things very well and I hope he has a big future. He will however have to be something very special to keep some of the others from his generation away from his shirt

No need lostin, he's not exactly English.......

Is that correct?? So many times I've thought about commenting on a post only to read through and read this eejit's input and then to think...what's the point? I wish I could learn to just ignore...

But...ignore the loony......Owen Farell is not in the same league as JW was at a comparable age. But I wait to find out how the game has changed!!

Hay all youre missing the point...
Jenkins best kicker of his day
Jenkins is now a kicking coach
Farrel has shown fantastic kicking so far
Johnny was a brilliant kicker

That's the comparison!!!! They're playing in different positions!!!! It's not about the running, tackling etc.

If you think Jenkins is playing mind games... Well... That's probably one of the best compliments I've ever heard for they guy!!!

Ps. I love Jenkins.

Wtriting style Cowshot, it's as good as a fingerprint, well, almost. The "England fanatic" angle is just one example of a cracking sense of humour, funny guy.

I've spotted them in the past, usually when they forget themselves and write in dialect. But this specimen is more careful than most. I do wonder at the psychology of someone who wants others to dislike a certain group people, so pretends to be one of them and behaves offensively. I've also found foreigners pretending to be Irish to stir up trouble between the English and Irish. As far as I know it's just England that gets this. Has anyone from Scotland, Ireland or Wales found foreigners pretending to be them to cause trouble with anyone other than England?

Sad little bigots, the lot of them.

Well my advice would be to lighten up and not get so uptight about it

Well my advice would be to lighten up and not get so uptight about it

I find it an interesting phenomenon. As I said, I'm curious about the psychology of those involved. If they dislike the English so much, why not say so? Why look like slimy little underhanded cowards?

I think they are in some way trying to make up for or excuse their own inadequacies: it's not their fault, it's the horrible English...

The thing is they aren't going to ever answer your questions seriously, nor are they going to go away, unfortunately. So the best thing to do would be to ignore them

I prefer to wait until they get outed (they always do) and then give them some abuse.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is they aren't going to ever answer your questions seriously, nor are they going to go away, unfortunately. So the best thing to do would be to ignore them

+1

Another option is to see the funny side.

Cari wrote: I seem to remember Danny Cipriani being compared to Jonny once...and look what happened to him! The inevitable comparisons come all the time in sport and popular culture. No one can be seen on their own merits these days... In Wales, they STILL compare new younger players to Barry John. I've learnt to put it down to lazy journalism and ignore it or it'll drive me mad.

I think Cipriani was always contrasted to, rather than compared with, JW.

chuckle. The funny side is that just doing what they do is a backhanded compliment: we still matter that much...