McGahan set to leave at the end of the season

First topic message reminder :

Apparently Tony is off back to Aus at the end of the season, to the national setup I believe from reports. Been at Munster since 05, and head coach since 08.

Mixed feelings about this but would like to see Axel take over with possibly Bradley as backs coach. These would be my preferences.

Rodders - the fishing my friend.

Sin - sure, don't sides make their own luck? And with Irish sides poor history of getting wins in France, a win by the U20's is not to be sniffed at.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote: Here's the squad that Rhys captained in the U20 WC.

Peter O'Mahony was U20s captain when he would have been deciding to come to Ireland:

Do you not think that his dad coaching Leinster might have had an influence on his decision to join us?

From what I heard he wanted to come to Munster back then, but Munster didn't want Ciaran in the package.

Well you heard wrong.

Mike Ruddock always wanted to return to Dublin (where his wife is from ) and was looking for a job with either the IRFU or with Leinster. Rhys and Ciaran went over with him and were both mustard keen to join Leinster. Leinster were hopeful that Rhys would make a top class player so they signed him on a developement contract and gave him a full contract the following year (1 year contract only), Ciaran was given a 3 year academy contract. And is in year 3 of it.

Ciaran Ruddock is also 6 foot 4, I would say that is too small to make it to the highest level as a second row.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Ciaran Ruddock is also 6 foot 4, I would say that is too small to make it to the highest level as a second row.

Maybe Rhys Ruddock has an independant brain and makes his own decisions.

As for being sacked by the Welsh blazers that has more to their muddled way of managing things that a reflection on Ruddock's talents as a coach.

Mickado wrote:Well you heard wrong.

Mike Ruddock always wanted to return to Dublin (where his wife is from ) and was looking for a job with either the IRFU or with Leinster. Rhys and Ciaran went over with him and were both mustard keen to join Leinster. Leinster were hopeful that Rhys would make a top class player so they signed him on a developement contract and gave him a full contract the following year (1 year contract only), Ciaran was given a 3 year academy contract. And is in year 3 of it.

U20s World Cup 2010: (Note Rhys is in Leinster)
Rhys Ruddock (UCD/Leinster), Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster), Nevin Spence (Ballynahinch/Ulster), Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster).

U20s 6Nations (ireland v Wales 2009).
Rhys Ruddock (Millfield School/Exiles), Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) (capt)

Mike Ruddock was still Worcester Warriors coach (Resigned as Director of Rugby on the 28th of April, 2010). Rhys & Ciaran were already with Leinster by then.

geoff998rugby wrote:Maybe Rhys Ruddock has an independant brain and makes his own decisions.

As for being sacked by the Welsh blazers that has more to their muddled way of managing things that a reflection on Ruddock's talents as a coach.

Some would say that Graham Henry actually did all the ground work and Ruddock reaped the benefit.

Anyone know how Lansdowne are doing this season?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Ciaran Ruddock is also 6 foot 4, I would say that is too small to make it to the highest level as a second row.

Ya, you'd think he would be released by the Leinster Academy if at the age of 23 you were only a 6 foot 4 lock.

To come back to the "who do people want to see at Munster" question via my works Facebook page we did a poll on it.

We've had 81 votes. 39 of them are for Conor O'Shea.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Ciaran Ruddock is also 6 foot 4, I would say that is too small to make it to the highest level as a second row.

Why is that funny?

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Maybe Rhys Ruddock has an independant brain and makes his own decisions.

As for being sacked by the Welsh blazers that has more to their muddled way of managing things that a reflection on Ruddock's talents as a coach.

Some would say that Graham Henry actually did all the ground work and Ruddock reaped the benefit.

Are you saying he is Declan Kidney's twin brother - gaining success of anothers ground work

ooooohh oh no he didn't!!!!

SinÉ wont like that!

Well geoff does have a point. If Sin can claim that Henry did all the ground work and Ruddock reaped the benefit, how does that not apply to Kidney and the 2009 grandslam? What is the difference.

Or indeed any coach who has ever won any trophy.

Hardly. There is a difference between a coach stepping in and using the same team/tactics to win in his first year, and a coach developing a team to win (Henry and the world cup and countless others). What did Kidney do that was any different to EOS, in 2009? Like I said, I categorise Kidney with PDV and Levriemont. Bad coaches of good teams. Teams which could be so much better.

I'm not claiming it, Ruddock himself said it. Said something to the effect that he saw the way Henry had Wales playing and that is the template of what he was going to use if he ever got the chance.

I think Declan Kidney's cv is way better than Eddies (& Ruddocks). He has had success at underage & club level as well as at international level. Himself & Henry have something in common - both IRB international coaches of the year.

I think McGahan did a great job transforming Munster. He was left an aging squad to deal with (by guess who) and has brought through and assembled, possibly the best and most exciting backline Munster ever had. Hats off to him for that. They are in a better place now because of him and are fast getting back to 2006/2008 level - competitive wise. Only far better to actually watch now. I would not back against them making the HC Final under McGahan. Then, who knows?

BTW, Kidney will be available soon. Wait on him. Ye can have him back and spare the country. Let Axel take over with Deccie to join soon. He and Axel would make a good team.

Honestly, would Munster want Kidney back? Considering the fact Munster have some really exciting players coming through who will take Munster onward and play some real attractive running rugby. Munster won't win tournaments anymore with their old methods, and thankfully they are moving on anyway. Last year their back three was lethal. Would you want to regress into the old way?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Honestly, would Munster want Kidney back? Considering the fact Munster have some really exciting players coming through who will take Munster onward and play some real attractive running rugby. Munster won't win tournaments anymore with their old methods, and thankfully they are moving on anyway. Last year their back three was lethal. Would you want to regress into the old way?

Shhhhhhhh! They might go for it.

Sorry

Personally don't rate Ruddock junior or senior. Too many good young backrows coming through in Munster.

Redstag, I really hope we don't go for O'Shea...let him go to Leinster..its where he belongs.

I wouldn't mind Kidney coming back but I believe Foley is worth a go and will bring the team forward and not just in the forwards.

To Pete - you are spouting the usual Cr.p about Munster rugby and how we play. The problem over the last few years has been that our backplay has been quite good, especially in 09 and 10. In fact against most reams we ran them ragged. The problem has been we didn't have the forward play to match it. Unlike Leinster whose (alleged) brilliant back play is mainly down to their forward dominance. This year thanks to Foley BJ and some new blood we have been able to dog it out and the backplay is coming along nicely or did you miss the Saints game?

No, brilliant back play is down to having brilliant backs funnily enough.. possession comes from the forwards.

Also why add in "alleged". Are you really suggesting Leinster's back play isn't brilliant?

O'Shea belongs in Leinster? Oh right, he moved there so abdicated his birthcert in the process.

Our backplay towards the end of last season was excellent. Particularly from our back three, Earls/Jones/Howlett. Unfortunately this year because of the WC/Earls moving to centre/injuries that combination hasn't been able to play together again.

I am probably in the very small minority that wouldn't mind EOS getting the job. I'm sure he has learned from some of his mistakes at the Ireland job. People i have been talking to think that the players would be against it cause of his time as Ireland coach. If this is the case ya then i agree it's a non-runner. But looking at the current squad I count only 8 players that would have played under EOS. Of those marcus, leamy, stringer and DOC aren't first choice anymore.

I think................ hate to say it because a lot of the past is the place I go to for refuge from this present, whether it's music or film or writing: but I think in rugby terms, the past should be left alone.

That's why my heart sinks when I hear Ruddock's name used as a possible future Irish coach. And why I think O'Sullivan would be a step backwards for Munster.

It's a new century, new decade and time to promote new blood and younger, hungry coaches who are willing to take to the modern game and run with it. Yesterday's men are unfortunately yesterday's men. They've had their time in the sun.

rawa86 wrote:Our backplay towards the end of last season was excellent. Particularly from our back three, Earls/Jones/Howlett. Unfortunately this year because of the WC/Earls moving to centre/injuries that combination hasn't been able to play together again.

Munster back play was good because of the individuals involved. Jones, Earls and Howlett are all excellent counter attackers. Munsters back play has generally looked a bit clueless at times.

If you watch Leinster I think their back play was better when they were humping Toulouse and then being flaky. They are like the all blacks though in that they recycle the ball at such a pace and hit so many one off runners at pace that they are almost constantly generating go forward and defences are unable to constantly reset.

I think the hickie, BOD(prime), D'arcy, Horgan, contepomi, Dempsey backs were more fluent but in terms of game plan and effectiveness this Leinster team is streets ahead. They are the premier team in Europe and I don't see that changing.

Standulstermen wrote:If you watch Leinster I think their back play was better when they were humping Toulouse and then being flaky. They are like the all blacks though in that they recycle the ball at such a pace and hit so many one off runners at pace that they are almost constantly generating go forward and defences are unable to constantly reset.

I think the hickie, BOD(prime), D'arcy, Horgan, contepomi, Dempsey backs were more fluent but in terms of game plan and effectiveness this Leinster team is streets ahead. They are the premier team in Europe and I don't see that changing.

Spot on Stand. Totally agree with all of that. They were instinctively brilliant. Contepomi was the catalyst, BOD and Darcy were possibly the best centre-pairing around back then. Hickie and Horgan unstoppable. Girv was a great attacking FB, contrary to uneducated opinion. But in the big HC games back then, we'd throw a wobbly, lose the bottle & the battle up front - and capitulate.

Cheika built the defensive Wall, a seige mentality, and that inner-will to expect to win and be the best. Schmidt has unleashed the backline in tandem now. All throughout this period, there has been one man, one constant at the helm - most responsible for Leinster's recent success. Jono Gibbes. He is priceless to us. The best signing we ever made in fact.

Munsters backline isn't anywhere near as good as it could be. It is based on indiviudal skill from Earls, Howlett or Jones rather than actual creative play apart from Denis Hurley who is an under rated creative spark in our backline. ROG gets the blame but its merely poor coaching and problems in the centres.

I'm with DOD in that I think Anthony Foley could do a super job for us.

Downe isn't going to help you in that respect stag. I know he is a crash ball but certainly against the top sides he is more likely to be stopped on the gainline than punch a hole. Need hanrahan in ASAP.

Standulstermen wrote:If you watch Leinster I think their back play was better when they were humping Toulouse and then being flaky. They are like the all blacks though in that they recycle the ball at such a pace and hit so many one off runners at pace that they are almost constantly generating go forward and defences are unable to constantly reset.

I think the hickie, BOD(prime), D'arcy, Horgan, contepomi, Dempsey backs were more fluent but in terms of game plan and effectiveness this Leinster team is streets ahead. They are the premier team in Europe and I don't see that changing.

Totally agree stand. Leinsters backs were "better" circa 2006/7 when they could score from anywhere even without a decent forward platform.

Under Schmidt they play a much more complete and controlled game, using backs and forwards, interlinking, attacking the fringes and then producing phase after phase of quick ball and using a deadly short passing game to put men into space. They are much better side now but the scintillating backplay of Hickie, Contepomi and co was hard to beat.

Standulstermen wrote:Downe isn't going to help you in that respect stag. I know he is a crash ball but certainly against the top sides he is more likely to be stopped on the gainline than punch a hole. Need hanrahan in ASAP.

I know. Im not happy at Downeys signing. I think that Keatley and Hanrahan and Laualala (who I know isn't a 12 per say) could all be good inside centre options.

I think Mafi had been a real spark in Munsters backline this season, much more so than Earls.

He makes a lot of breaks and half breaks with his quick feet and whilst he doesn't always pick the right offload he creates a lot of space for the players outside him.

roddersm wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:If you watch Leinster I think their back play was better when they were humping Toulouse and then being flaky. They are like the all blacks though in that they recycle the ball at such a pace and hit so many one off runners at pace that they are almost constantly generating go forward and defences are unable to constantly reset.

I think the hickie, BOD(prime), D'arcy, Horgan, contepomi, Dempsey backs were more fluent but in terms of game plan and effectiveness this Leinster team is streets ahead. They are the premier team in Europe and I don't see that changing.

Totally agree stand. Leinsters backs were "better" circa 2006/7 when they could score from anywhere even without a decent forward platform.

Under Schmidt they play a much more complete and controlled game, using backs and forwards, interlinking, attacking the fringes and then producing phase after phase of quick ball and using a deadly short passing game to put men into space. They are much better side now but the scintillating backplay of Hickie, Contepomi and co was hard to beat.

David Knox was an incredible backs coach. Pity he was a bit of a tool as well but he had that backline playing some really excellent rugby, we just had Cameron Jowitt and Owen Finnegan trying to secure possession for them…

Standulstermen wrote:If you watch Leinster I think their back play was better when they were humping Toulouse and then being flaky. They are like the all blacks though in that they recycle the ball at such a pace and hit so many one off runners at pace that they are almost constantly generating go forward and defences are unable to constantly reset.

I think the hickie, BOD(prime), D'arcy, Horgan, contepomi, Dempsey backs were more fluent but in terms of game plan and effectiveness this Leinster team is streets ahead. They are the premier team in Europe and I don't see that changing.

+1

The instincts of the past now harnessed and evolved into a ruthless pattern. I can only imagine how a player of Hickie's downright natural and often breathtaking skill would have thrived in this present side where creativity isn't only encouraged but the systems are there to support it when it happens. I know it gets said often, but rugby really is a simple game. That resoluteness and rehearsed consistency of support can often be the one glaringly obvious hole in sides that show promise but somehow always falter. Not naming names

I will also say this though. Leinster can lose. I don't like all this Godly talk around them. I love how they play, I only wish a few people would adapt or adopt it...but they aren't invincible. Feet on ground for me. I enjoy how easy they make it all look, and yet that very trait of their game always makes me worry about complacency crawling around the edges.

Exactly Fly, when all is said and done, a poorly coached Munster can and does keep Leinster's creativity in check.

Munster has outscored Leinster with trys in their last 4 outings. Of the 2 trys that Leinster have scored, Brian O'Driscoll and Shane Horgan were on the score sheet.

Leinster have a lot of good backs, but none of them are anything special (apart from Nacewa & Kearney Senior is looking good) like Hickie or BOD or Shaggy.

It is difficult to extract anything meaningful from stats in a derby like that sin.

Standulstermen wrote:It is difficult to extract anything meaningful from stats in a derby like that sin.

Its over the last 4 derbies Stand. Munster can defend against the Leinster attack (or another way of putting it, Leinster's attack is not as potent against Munster's defence). I'll be interested to see how Leinster do against the Ospreys in their next game as the Os seem to concentrate more on defense now.

Context is everything though sin. Munster have definitely kicked on since losing out in the HEC last year. POC has been like a man possessed especially.

The way to stop Leinster is simply to stop them on the gainline and don't give their forwards an advanced ruck to run onto. Easier said than done mind you.

Sin é wrote:Munster can defend against the Leinster attack (or another way of putting it, Leinster's attack is not as potent against Munster's defence).

Absolutely true. Without a shadow of a doubt. And why is that? Because they know each other so well and can preempt each other or because Munster is Munster (still a European powerhouse)?

I'd say Munster can lessen the lethal stab of Leinster's attack because they've been doing that game on great European sides for long enough now. They have the experience, both in players on the field and in coaching staff. They are what they are - Munster.

Another point, about an earlier reference to Munster being poorly coached.

I wouldn't say Munster are/were poorly coached. I'd say they play a different style...and in the past it was very effective for them. They now have some young and enthusiastic backs that just by their spirit alone tell you they want a game less conjested up the centre and on the faster side.

Next coach will use Munster's bedrock philosophy of forward dominance but they'll add some pace to the mix that will give greater scope to the backs. Pace was already part of the mix though with Munster... so maybe even the idea of a change of emphasis is wrong. More emphasis might be a more accurate way of putting it.

I'm not saying Munster should take lessons from Leinster. They are their own beast - and a mightlily effective one it's proven to be in the last decade. All I ask from all coaches in all Provinces is that the emphasis on attack support in better defined and furiously coached so that our instincts at International level will have forwards as well as backs sustain the tempo of attacking moves and not drag ourselves into the dirt for a safty valve recycle. Offensive Recycles should be renamed Defence Realignment. Because the initiative is handed back to defences when faith in attacking moves subside due to lack of support options.

What would Munster fans think of Les Kiss for head coach?

I think he’s still got another season left in his Irish contract but if that could be cut short I think he’d make a good coach, with Foley in tow.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munster can defend against the Leinster attack (or another way of putting it, Leinster's attack is not as potent against Munster's defence).

Absolutely true. Without a shadow of a doubt. And why is that? Because they know each other so well and can preempt each other or because Munster is Munster (still a European powerhouse)?

I'd say Munster can lessen the lethal stab of Leinster's attack because they've been doing that game on great European sides for long enough now. They have the experience, both in players on the field and in coaching staff. They are what they are - Munster.

Another point, about an earlier reference to Munster being poorly coached.

I wouldn't say Munster are/were poorly coached. I'd say they play a different style...and in the past it was very effective for them. They now have some young and enthusiastic backs that just by their spirit alone tell you they want a game less conjested up the centre and on the faster side.

Next coach will use Munster's bedrock philosophy of forward dominance but they'll add some pace to the mix that will give greater scope to the backs. Pace was already part of the mix though with Munster... so maybe even the idea of a change of emphasis is wrong. More emphasis might be a more accurate way of putting it.

I'm not saying Munster should take lessons from Leinster. They are their own beast - and a mightlily effective one it's proven to be in the last decade. All I ask from all coaches in all Provinces is that the emphasis on attack support in better defined and furiously coached so that our instincts at International level will have forwards as well as backs sustain the tempo of attacking moves and not drag ourselves into the dirt for a safty valve recycle. Offensive Recycles should be renamed Defence Realignment. Because the initiative is handed back to defences when faith in attacking moves subside due to lack of support options.

+1
I don't think Foley would be a great bet for Munster tbh because I think that would be steering the team further towards the old Munster values of safe, forward based, territoy/possession rugby. I think he should be involved but I don't think he should be head coach.
I'd say someone like O'Shea would have been perfect not too radical and yet with the ability to promote change at the same time.
Mallet would be my preffered choice or Henry

ignore

Aside from the fact Foley played for Munster for a long time why do you assume he would stifle the team in attack?

I don't see it myself. I think he did very well with the Munster Academy when he coached them. He got that team to the British & Irish Cup Final winning every match along the way - he beat Bristol, Neath, Nottingham, Coventry, Ulster Ravens and Heriots before coming up short in the final. His team included Peter O'Mahony, Simon Zebo, Mike Sherry, Danny Barnes, Ian Nagle, Stephen Archer, Conor Murray and Tommy O'Donnell who have all stepped up to Heineken Cup level.

I would say he has been instrumental in bringing the young guys through.

For me its Foley. If not I say bring in Wayne Smith from NZ.

Yeah give Foley a chance,I want to see young Irish coaches coming through the ranks that's one area I feel Leinster have let the side down.

There's no reason to believe he won't coach good,positive rugby.The only reservations I would have about him is that it might be a bit too early but so far he has shown himself more than capable in every job he's taken on.

Asoreleftshoulder, though the Academy coaches at Leinster are Girvan Dempsey and Reggie Corrigan.

Yeah it's starting to happen now but we have been lagging behind,hopefully it will continue to improve.
I'm not opposed to foreign coaches but I'd prefer we promote from within if it's possible.For example if our next head coach was already established at Leinster like Jonno Gibbes I'd have no problem with that but I wouldn't like to see us trawling the world.

red_stag wrote:Asoreleftshoulder, though the Academy coaches at Leinster are Girvan Dempsey and Reggie Corrigan.

Mal O'Kelly & John Fogarty are also coaching there as well. I think Reggie is more involved in coaching the amateur game around the province rather than in the academy.