Hide the game time clock

You can't ever hope to keep the real match time secret. But the elapsed/remaining game time could be.

Too many times games are terminated because the players know exactly how much time is left before the final peep.

To my mind al lot of excitement was lost when game-time remaining is public knowledge - even worse - known by the teams.

Don't think you can stop it really. You can always ask the ref and he's never going to say "No, it's a secret". Most refs will tell you when time is up on the pitch anyway.....last play calls etc...

Though I do hate it when teams kill the play to wind the clock down (wasn't complaining when we did it in the final though!)

As a Ref - I'm asked how long to go ref, I always tell BOTH teams and I always tell players when it's the last play at the end of each half

I think showing the time remaining has increased the excitement (Wales v Scotland 2010, Ireland v Wales this season)

PenfroPete wrote:As a Ref - I'm asked how long to go ref, I always tell BOTH teams and I always tell players when it's the last play at the end of each half

Pete,
I think showing the time remaining has increased the excitement (Wales v Scotland 2010, Ireland v Wales this season)

When I played I was almost never cosseted like that. Would it be any worse if you told them that the match is not over and keep it at that?

Try it and report back. I don't think that it's against the refs' directives (but on that I'm guessing).

"I think showing the time remaining has increased the excitement (Wales v Scotland 2010, Ireland v Wales this season)". But think how heart-stoppingly intense it might have been hadn't you didn't know.

That's the way it used to be both on and off the pitch.

On the pitch as it stands the appropriate player will hoof it into the car park at 1sec past the clock goes red.

Think about it.

If he didn't know, he possibly wouldn't. That's where the excitement lies.

Excite is lost when the team leading in the game has possession in the final 5 minutes of the match. While you don't like the clock announcing 3-4 minutes of pick and drives to go, it is feasible (though not attractive) that a team ahead at half time could claim the restart and pick'n'drive side to side for 40 minutes.

In my view, instead of targetting the clock in this situation, the referee should be extra vigilant about the team in possession sealing off and not keeping their feet. It is usually only effective if the guy with the ball falls to ground and two guys (supposedly there to drive him forward in contact) happen to fall into the perfect place to stop the defense from competing for the ball.

One thing I would ask, what is the best way to win back the ball in that situation? Are there any smart actions that the defense could do? I sometimes think that instead of tackling the guy on the gainline there, one defender should grab him and pull him 2 metres behind the defensive line (with the other defenders rushing in mudding the lines for support to re-seal the ball). If you had a good fetcher ready 2 metres behind the line ready to reach in for the ball as soon as the guy is dragged to him, the ref should whistle holding by the guy on the ground, or the fetcher wins the ball. Is that idea barmy? Is it illegal? Any ideas welcome.

Okay.............. so for now, the ref tells them and therefore everything is above board. The players want to know the time...they ask the ref. Simple.

Now, let's say a new rule hides the timed countdown from the sides. The players can't ask the ref and the clock is kept off the scoreboards in the stadium. Will that stop players knowing how long they have left?

I very much doubt it - coded signals from the side line, chat amongst waterboys and players, chat amongst medics and players. If it's a handy trick to know where the clock is towards the end of a game, then the players will find out.

Better to just let the ref tell them.

SecretFly wrote:Okay.............. so for now, the ref tells them and therefore everything is above board. The players want to know the time...they ask the ref. Simple.

Now, let's say a new rule hides the timed countdown from the sides. The players can't ask the ref and the clock is kept off the scoreboards in the stadium. Will that stop players knowing how long they have left?

I very much doubt it - coded signals from the side line, chat amongst waterboys and players, chat amongst medics and players. If it's a handy trick to know where the clock is towards the end of a game, then the players will find out.

Better to just let the ref tell them.

But if the real game time clock is secret (say held by 4th referee) the players won't find out. The coaches won't know. The crowd won't know.

What's wrong with nobody but the ref and his assistant knowing?

There would always be an audit trail for clock stopping - and who pressed the button.

It works 2 way I remember an Ulster v Dragons game and the time was showing as up on th estadium clock, the Dragons kicked the ball out but the ref signaled that there was still time for the line out, Ulster won their own line out and got a pen to win the game.

If Dragons had winded the clock down with their forwards and waited till th eref signaled time was up they would have won the game.

That's just like a wardrobe misfunction though Kingshu.

Already the overall game is decided by random decisions of the ref.

Would it make any difference if the final whistle was secret?

I'm old enough to to recall the days before the time clock and I can ensure you that not knowing when the game would end is way better than the reverse.

Portnoy wrote:
But if the real game time clock is secret (say held by 4th referee) the players won't find out. The coaches won't know. The crowd won't know.

What's wrong with nobody but the ref and his assistant knowing?

There would always be an audit trail for clock stopping - and who pressed the button.

But the TV crowd like knowing. They know in football (the three or two minutes left clock) and they like knowing in rugby as it introduces another dramatic edge to the end of a tight game. I think TV heads wouldn't like the cloud of uncertainty for them or their audiences.

And again, only the ref and his assistant knowing might work for a season or two but eventually the sides would have their eagle-eyed operatives and timing specialists mimic countdowns, pick up countdown signals,work out stoppages themselves, do their practice runs and come to a pretty decent understanding of when the ref will call time on the game. The clock can only be stopped for specific aspects during a game...the timer can't just add his own seconds here and there to confuse those who might be trying to predict an end. 80 minutes of playtime is the objective.

Portnoy wrote: When I played I was almost never cosseted like that.

PENFRO: Ahh.. Very passable, this, very passable.

PORTNOY: Nothing like a good glass of Chateau de Chassilier wine, ay Gibbo?

GIBBO: You're right there Portnoy.

RAVA: Who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Chateau de Chassilier wine?

PENFRO: Aye. In them days, we'd a' been glad to have the price of a whistle.

PORTNOY: A whistle wi’ no pea.

RAVA: Wi’out lanyard.

PORTNOY: We never used to have a whistle. The ref just bellowed at us.

PENFRO: Aye, he never told us how long was left, or even which half we were playing.

GIBBO: But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were ignorant.

PENFRO: Aye. BECAUSE we were ignorant. My old Dad used to say to me, 'knowing how long is left doesn’t mean excitement.'

RAVA: 'E was right. I was happier then and I knew NOTHIN'. We used to have to play on a pitch with no club house, just a changing room .

PORTNOY: Club House? You were lucky to have changing rooms ! We used to have to change in one room, all forty-three of us (2 squads and officials), no showers. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING!

GIBBO: You were lucky to have a ROOM! *We* used to have to change on’t bus!

PENFRO: Ohhhh we used to DREAM of changin’' on a bus! Woulda' been a palace to us. We used to change in an old water tank on a rubbish tip.

RAVA: Well when I say 'changing room' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a piece of tarpolin, but it was a changing room to US.

PORTNOY: We were evicted from *our* hole in the ground; we had to go and change in a lake!

GIBBO: You were lucky to have a LAKE! There were a forty-three of us changing in a small shoebox in the middle of the road.

PENFRO: Cardboard box?

GIBBO: Aye.

PENFRO: You were lucky. We changed for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank.

PORTNOY: Luxury. We used to have to get to the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, get changed and the Coach would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle, if we were LUCKY!

GIBBO: Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK our kit clean with our tongues. We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel at half time, and when finished the game (and we never knew when the game would finish ‘cos the bast@rd ref would never tell how long was left) , our Coach would slice us in two with a bread knife.

RAVA: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed,, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, play for twenty-nine hours a day as the ref never ended the game, and pay the club for permission to play. Then when we got in , our Coach and Fixture Secretary would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing 'Hallelujah.'

PENFRO: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't blydi believe ya'.

ALL: Nope, nope

That is a very good satire Penfro.

It does sum me up.

But I'm not wrong though.

Wasn't just you Portnoy - it's all us 'old gits'.

Seriously though, I too remember the old days and the crowd whistling during the last 5/ 10 minutes. However, I do prefer knowing.

If I'm at a Sarries game (not that Saffaracens lot ) we don't have a game clock. I'm watching the ref and whenever he signals "time off", I stop my stopwatch and start again when he signals "time on". Then when I think it's 5 minutes to go I tell our coach. At the next stoppage our coach will ask "How long ref ?" When the answer comes back I'm normally within 10 seconds of the ref. If the ref's stopped telling us, then provided they carried on with signalling time off/on we'd work out the time remaining

"
PORTNOY: Club House? You were lucky to have changing rooms ! We used to have to change in one room, all forty-three of us (2 squads and officials), no showers. Half the floor was missing; we were all huddled together in one corner for fear of FALLING! "

That bit is very true - except for the bit where the total number of players exceeded 29. We did all share a single shower head at home and the team refreshments consisted of two loaves of Wonderloaf/Mother's Pride filled with random shoite. Personally I quite to like the fish/meat paste.

My Dad's team used to have to change at the Institute in town, walk just over a mile to the farmers field/pitch on the outskirts. Then the mile back to the Institute so they could have a shower !!

After my couple of stints on the Press Bench at Quins recently I have to say I really really like having the match clock visible - it makes writing the match report a LOT easier

And while they could have a clock only visible to the press bench, there's usually someone from both teams sitting on the bench doing match reports for the club website, so they'd be able to pass the word on).

Kiwireddevil wrote:After my couple of stints on the Press Bench at Quins recently I have to say I really really like having the match clock visible - it makes writing the match report a LOT easier

And while they could have a clock only visible to the press bench, there's usually someone from both teams sitting on the bench doing match reports for the club website, so they'd be able to pass the word on).

Why should the press be any way more informed than anyone else Kiwi?

It's only a game and it's a bit of a spoiler.

I remember one Murrayfield 5Ns TVed game (seventies I think) before floodlights etc when only the TV cameras (just) were able to see what was happening. Game started at 3pm as per norm. No clocks, no indication of game time left and I recall that it was a sensational game.

That might have been against England. The importance being that it wasn't the game but the tension. No clocks of any sort. Lovely.

Portnoy wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:After my couple of stints on the Press Bench at Quins recently I have to say I really really like having the match clock visible - it makes writing the match report a LOT easier

And while they could have a clock only visible to the press bench, there's usually someone from both teams sitting on the bench doing match reports for the club website, so they'd be able to pass the word on).

Why should the press be any way more informed than anyone else Kiwi?

It's only a game and it's a bit of a spoiler.

I remember one Murrayfield 5Ns TVed game (seventies I think) before floodlights etc when only the TV cameras (just) were able to see what was happening. Game started at 3pm as per norm. No clocks, no indication of game time left and I recall that it was a sensational game.

That might have been against England. The importance being that it wasn't the game but the tension. No clocks of any sort. Lovely.

It's purely a selfish desire on my part, Portnoy, being able to include "player Y replaced player X in the nth minute" is one of those match-reporting traditions

In 1995 I know I felt like hiding that gold watch where the sun didn´t shine...

Coming back to a point made earlier was the "should the referee tell players how long is remaining".

Its a bit of a talking point in our association.

What I make a point of doing is that around 5 minutes to go when there is a break in play I just say to both captains - "guys 5 minutes to go. tell your teams now if your want to. Ill let you both know last play if I can".

I then make sure to tell them its the last play (if possible). I find it works well.

red_stag wrote:Coming back to a point made earlier was the "should the referee tell players how long is remaining".

Its a bit of a talking point in our association.

What I make a point of doing is that around 5 minutes to go when there is a break in play I just say to both captains - "guys 5 minutes to go. tell your teams now if your want to. Ill let you both know last play if I can".

I then make sure to tell them its the last play (if possible). I find it works well.

That is exactly what sort of response we used to get Staggy.

Sometimes "mind your own business" was less helpful yet more appreciated to interpret as keep going if you want to win or not lose by too many.

Game time clock players don't know when they are born.

Also I notice that footy still never has a game clock - and are they the worse for it?

Was this first brought in to the game by Rugby league from down under?

The Highlanders vs Crusaders game just gave an illustration of what happens when the match clock doesn't take stoppage time into account, and no-one tells the players or the crowd https://www.606v2.com/t25123-drama-at-the-highlanders-v-crusaders-game#1015799

Jeez, I thought I was the dyed-in-the-wool retrograde cave-dwelling Luddite. But the thought of denying the game clock to the players and fans makes me look almost New Age (but thankfully not that extreme).

Time is part of the game, just the same as runs, kicks, passes and tackles. As a player, I want to know how much time is left, as this dictates my tactics. As a fan watching in the stands, I want to know, as this wratchets up the excitement. However, this is probably moot as the game clock ain't going to disappear.

I remember no time clock all too well.

I also remember not being knocked up ( ) by the ref by the ref that the game was ready to start.

But not knowing both as a player an a spectator made the game better if the elapsed time is ticking over and that game is not in the bag.

Strange that it took the shock of a modern game to unveil the added intensity of uncertainty derived by not knowing.

It's been a whole load of badness since the game time clock was public. Personally I also think it was a bad thing that footy started showing the added minutes banner.

Just so long as the game clock stoppages are made available publicly after the end of the game. You wouldn't want to spoil a post-match argument would you?

Or you could just follow Chris White's example in the Wales/Italy game:

Welsh player: Enough time for a line-out, ref?
White: Sure, ten seconds or more. Go for it, lad.
Welsh player: Cheers ref (kicks into touch)
Peeeeep!
(cue mayhem)

Port, Haven't conversed with you for a while. Hope all is well.

I have to disagree with you on this point. I also remember the amateur era quite well. I came up during that time, and its fair to say things were extremely different then, almost a different sport compared to what we have today.

But I disagree that not knowing the time made things better. Not knowing always drove me bananas as a player and also watching in the old, damp, freezing stands. I always wanted to know and frequently badgered the referee to tell me. I also don't think it added any intensity, only confusion, and as a player, frustration. The first match I played with a proper match time clock seemed a gift from heaven.

But, playing at the levels most of us play at, there are matches with and without a proper game clock. And, therefore, the sometimes not knowing and the going off my rocker. Again. I think the intensity of a match hots up when everyone knows the end is nigh. It changes tactics and game plan.

But I suppose its what we prefer in our sport. No one is really right or wrong. But, I can say, when we made the coice to become a professional sport, there are number of things which came along for the ride, some of which still bother a lot of people. But, from which there is no turning back.

Me and Mrs Holybloke have played that game for ages, it's fairly common I think...



Oh! "Clock" - my bad.

The Munster v Dragons game on Saturday evening seemed to have a broken clock...on the ref's wrist.

It was still going full belt at the 85th minute. Nobody seemed to care. Munster had the ball and the win ( a hard fought one) at something like 81 minutes and decided to run it. Now there's old school.

Kiwireddevil wrote:The Highlanders vs Crusaders game just gave an illustration of what happens when the match clock doesn't take stoppage time into account, and no-one tells the players or the crowd https://www.606v2.com/t25123-drama-at-the-highlanders-v-crusaders-game#1015799

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was relating to this game.
The Highlanders kicked the ball out on two occasions about two minutes apart, as they thought the time was up. I thought at one point there was going to be a lot of controversy over it but as they won anyway it seems to be ok.
That problem has to be sorted though. You can't have a clock running in the stadium thats inaccurate.

Overlord,
That issue with the game clock and the stadium clock being out of alignment is pretty rare, I think. Which makes for good discussion when it happens, as it did yesterday.

In the NFL it happens rarely, but they have a policy to deal with it. When the difference is observed, the referee announces to the teams and the fans in the stadium that the official time is kept on the field. He has the stadium turn the stadium clock off until they get it sorted. Seems simple and would have avoided the situation we just saw.

portnoy i actually dont think its a bad idea.

its similar to nfl quarterbacks taking a knee at the moment. i mean teams can retain the ball for 6/7 minutes making 5 yards.

It can be boring beyond belief

I hate it too, and I think it should be down to the ref to decide when the times up even if 80mins has come and gone.

also I don't think players should be allowed to kick the ball out behind their own try line, that really bugs me.

Pearson seemed to blow up very early at the 'end' of the 1st half in the France/Ireland game last weekend.