Wasps SOS

Does anyone know who's in line to buy wasps? Really hope they can sort it out.

I'll keep playing the Euro millions just in case

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17667931

Wasps statement:

Statement from London Wasps Holdings Limited

The board of London Wasps Holdings Limited can today provide the following update on the on-going Club sale process.

Following the decision by Wycombe District Council last July to withdraw its support for a new Sporting Village and Stadium for London Wasps, the Club has been searching for new investment and subsequently new owners.

The board is disappointed to confirm that negotiations, which had been leading towards an imminent takeover of the Club, have stalled.

The board, having taken independent advice, is able to confirm that London Wasps Holdings Limited remains nevertheless a going concern.

However, the board acknowledges the urgency of the current situation surrounding the Club.

There are on-going active discussions with other potential investors but the Club is seeking, using all best endeavours, further expressions of interest.

London Wasps Chairman Mark Rigby said: “London Wasps has a long and successful history, and is one of the best known brands in the game, and the board is convinced that the right backer exists. With a great squad in place and the excellent Dai Young at the helm, we believe we are set to make a strong impact next season. Time is however short and we urgently need a new investor or consortium to back this belief.”

According to this morning's sports news on 5Live Wasps are close to entering administration.

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/12/04/11/RUGBYU_Wasps_McCafferty.html&BID=504

One particular section of interest:

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty has vowed to do all he can to help Wasps find new investors and stave off the growing threat of administration.

Also i had not realised current owner Steve Haynes had been arrested in connection with News International hacking investigations.

With Wasps having the greatest difficulty in attracting a new owner, dark mutterings of administration or even closure come more to the fore.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/162594.html

Will the Wasps not panic and carry on?
Can a new sugar-daddy be found?
What about a fan-based take-over thus creating a 'proper' club like Exeter or the Tigers?
A bale-out from the RFU like the bankers got from the government got?

And if the brown stuff hits the fan at the end of the season,

Would Newcastle be saved from relegation?
Would next year's Jeff be cut to 11 teams?
An exodus of players abroad (e.g. an Italian Phoenix side)?

What?

Not sure Steve Haynes can carry on, so as I wrote in the other thread administration looks ever more likely.

PRL are making noises that they would do everything they could to support Wasps - but even then there is a limit as to what they can do.

Last time this happened the league was cut from 14 to 12 teams as Richmond & London Scottish were "amalgamated" into London Irish. The way those two famous clubs started again has been impressive.

Wasps still have an amateur side to the club, still based in London, so in a lot of ways the demise of the pro side would not worry the RFU overly.

Should they disappear after the end of the season - I would expect we will see just one team promoted and Falcons reprieved. (Assuming of course that Wasps do not finish bottom - then no reprieve is needed of course)

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure Steve Haynes can carry on, so as I wrote in the other thread administration looks ever more likely.

PRL are making noises that they would do everything they could to support Wasps - but even then there is a limit as to what they can do.

Last time this happened the league was cut from 14 to 12 teams as Richmond & London Scottish were "amalgamated" into London Irish. The way those two famous clubs started again has been impressive.

Wasps still have an amateur side to the club, still based in London, so in a lot of ways the demise of the pro side would not worry the RFU overly.

Should they disappear after the end of the season - I would expect we will see just one team promoted and Falcons reprieved. (Assuming of course that Wasps do not finish bottom - then no reprieve is needed of course)

+1 Agree with LT, would expect promotion for one, no relegation for Falcons, IF the worst should happen to Wasps.

Portnoy, how would you be able to stop yourself enjoying their demise?

Given this situation, how does it sqaure with the calls to increase the salary cap from other clubs ?

Is it going to going to end up with the "haves" on one side and the "have nots" on the other like the football Premier League where half a dozen teams battle for Europe while the other half battle it out to stay up ?

Personally I think it would be awful for one of the great historic clubs to go down, even if it could be argued that London is over represented in the professional ranks.

It would be sad if they folded. They have not spent fortunes trying to "buy" success, but were more a club that developed playes who would often stay for much lower money than they would get elsewhere.

Their biggest problem was the lack of a ground of any significant capacity - hence the trek to Wycombe via QPR. Things have now come to a head because the council - after agreeing in principle - will not allow the development of Adams Park.

Wasps have never had big money - have in general attempted to live to their means while trying to develop a sustainable support base (poorly conceived plans maybe - but they tried).

For much of the last 15 years Wasps were also penalised by providing a lot of England players, necessitating a large squad, yet receiving the same central funding as teams who provided no-one.

Irish Londoner wrote:Given this situation, how does it sqaure with the calls to increase the salary cap from other clubs ?

Is it going to going to end up with the "haves" on one side and the "have nots" on the other like the football Premier League where half a dozen teams battle for Europe while the other half battle it out to stay up ?

Personally I think it would be awful for one of the great historic clubs to go down, even if it could be argued that London is over represented in the professional ranks.

I have always been an advocate of caps to an affordable level of turnover (say 40%).

Irish Londoner wrote:Given this situation, how does it sqaure with the calls to increase the salary cap from other clubs ?

Is it going to going to end up with the "haves" on one side and the "have nots" on the other like the football Premier League where half a dozen teams battle for Europe while the other half battle it out to stay up ?

Personally I think it would be awful for one of the great historic clubs to go down, even if it could be argued that London is over represented in the professional ranks.

Bath and Saracens are the only sides who would hugely gain from a large increase in cap. The rest of the clubs either do not spend up to the cap at the moment, or do but their income means they cannot exceed it by much if the rules were relaxed.

in many ways a salray cap as a % of turnover makes more sense as it is then truly sustainable. However it would then create a huge divide between those clubs who already have good grounds and sizeable attendances and those who want to get there. (ie it would favour Tigers which would make fans of other clubs unhappy)

You could I suppose create a cap of 40% of turnover up to a max of £5m.

Overall English success has faltered in Europe since the strict limit was imposed.

But that should be accompanied by
A strict limit on overseas players
Avoidance so far as is possible of club/country clashes

etc. etc. - Portnoy's reviled s

Ironic that this state of affairs has come to pass on a marquee Jeff club.

LondonTiger wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Given this situation, how does it sqaure with the calls to increase the salary cap from other clubs ?

Is it going to going to end up with the "haves" on one side and the "have nots" on the other like the football Premier League where half a dozen teams battle for Europe while the other half battle it out to stay up ?

Personally I think it would be awful for one of the great historic clubs to go down, even if it could be argued that London is over represented in the professional ranks.

Bath and Saracens are the only sides who would hugely gain from a large increase in cap. The rest of the clubs either do not spend up to the cap at the moment, or do but their income means they cannot exceed it by much if the rules were relaxed.

in many ways a salray cap as a % of turnover makes more sense as it is then truly sustainable. However it would then create a huge divide between those clubs who already have good grounds and sizeable attendances and those who want to get there. (ie it would favour Tigers which would make fans of other clubs unhappy)

Portnoy arguing for something that would favour his beloved Tigers over other cluns, LT?!?! Well I never ...

How many times do I have to say this As?

My views are a matter of my concerns about the sustainability of English rugby.

And not - repeat not because I happen to have been born in Leicester.

As it is the hamstringing of Jeff clubs has constrained them in terms of European success by a nanny-state approach which encourages a drive to at best the mediocre.

And packing sides with SH players to circumvent the losses of players to IWs.

Most clubs would see their salary budget drop if we used an affordability measure to decide on individual caps.

While Tigers Turnover for 2010/11 was £19.5m (so using using Portnoy's 40% rule a cap of £7.8m would be in play) profit was £559k - so just enough to cover next seasons increase and marquee player rule. Simply put tigers would not have the money to spend 40% of turnover on player salaries.

Simply put an affordability cap would reduce the overall spend on salaries in the AP. This may not be a bad thing - though oddly could lead to yet more foreign journeymen - but would increase the disparity between english and French clubs.

but would increase the disparity between english and French clubs.

and see us fall further behind the Irish clubs who find it far easier to retain the best Irish talent thanks to the chunky top ups the players receive from the IRFU.

It's a tough balance to find as teams like Tigers want to bring in those extra couple of players or spend that little bit more to secure their best talent. They can afford it based on commercial activity (not sugar daddy hand outs) so why shouldn't they be able to? Same with Saints and Chiefs they can both afford a little more so why shouldn't they be able to strengthen slightly. My fears aren't for those clubs, my fears are for Bath and Sarries, should their backers get bored and pull out ala Wasps then the clubs are not in a position to pay their debts.

I am quite annoyed that my club Saracens are using the salary cap as an excuse for performing so badly against Clermont. Spending more money won't suddenly make English clubs more competitive in Europe.

The salary cap is there for a reason. Without the massive financial muscle behind Saracens they would be in the same mess as Wasps.


http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#p_1_s_a0_All%20industries_All%20countries_All%20states_

Wasps need to look through this list and pick a prospective owner.

199 is our man - Johann. Above the likes of the Glazers (Manu),John Henry (Liverpool),Joe Lewis (Tottenham), Stan Kroenke (Arsenal)


I really hope someone on this list picks out Wasps as a prospective investment.

beshocked wrote:I am quite annoyed that my club Saracens are using the salary cap as an excuse for performing so badly against Clermont. Spending more money won't suddenly make English clubs more competitive in Europe.

The salary cap is there for a reason. Without the massive financial muscle behind Saracens they would be in the same mess as Wasps.


http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#p_1_s_a0_All%20industries_All%20countries_All%20states_

Wasps need to look through this list and pick a prospective owner.

199 is our man - Johann. Above the likes of the Glazers (Manu),John Henry (Liverpool),Joe Lewis (Tottenham), Stan Kroenke (Arsenal)


I really hope someone on this list picks out Wasps as a prospective investment.

beshocked, I have much admiration for the progress being made with Sarries, but is it really about 'investment' or is the club a plaything until the backer gets bored? I don't know the answer, but it does worry me. At some point, there will have to be a reckoning and a transition to a sustainable business model

Aslongasbut100ofus it might be a plaything to Johann Rupert and co but certainly is not to Nigel Wray. The transition to a sustainable business model is an ongoing process.

Acquiring the new stadium in Barnet should really help with this.

The relative recent success of Saracens will buoy the backers' resolve too.

Look at all the clubs that our relatively self sustainable - they all have their own rugby stadiums.

The likes of Wasps,Saracens and London Irish don't have their own stadiums so struggle for revenue.

Wasps don't have the financial backing to weather the storm. The only way they will survive is if a wealthy owner comes in willing to find a new home for them. Is there an owner out there willing to make the sacrifices needed?

Wasps do have the impressive history though so there is still hope.

beshocked wrote:Aslongasbut100ofus it might be a plaything to Johann Rupert and co but certainly is not to Nigel Wray. The transition to a sustainable business model is an ongoing process.

Acquiring the new stadium in Barnet should really help with this.

The relative recent success of Saracens will buoy the backers' resolve too.

Look at all the clubs that our relatively self sustainable - they all have their own rugby stadiums.

The likes of Wasps,Saracens and London Irish don't have their own stadiums so struggle for revenue.

Wasps don't have the financial backing to weather the storm. The only way they will survive is if a wealthy owner comes in willing to find a new home for them. Is there an owner out there willing to make the sacrifices needed?

Wasps do have the impressive history though so there is still hope.

beshocked, agreed, it does like your lot are headed in the right direction, particularly on the infrastructure side

Wasps have produced so many players in the past decade for England and their academy is prodigious. LBND, Tim Payne, James Haskell, Tom Palmer, Danny Cipriani, Tom Rees, Rob Webber, Tom Lindsay, Joe Worsley, Josh Lewesey, Paul Sackey, Joe Simpson, Dom Wauldouck, Joe Launchbury, Sam Jones, Charlie Davies, Elliot Daly, Christian Wade, Jack Wallace and a good number more.

England could really suffer if they hit the pan and as a Newcastle fan, I really wouldn't be comfortable staying up in those circumstances.

Look at all the clubs that our relatively self sustainable - they all have their own rugby stadiums

This is important but it is also the area they have their stadiums in and the infastructure around them. Tigers is a prime example. They have made sure there is parking (soon to be even more), bus services and a train service all within minutes of the stadium. They go to great lengths to promote rugby in the area (pretty much every child playing at a major Leicestershire rugby club will meet a Tigers squad player at some point, usually a minis tournament). This has been going on for not years but closer to decades.

Sarries are making good steps but they will still have to work hard to intergrate themselves to the local communities and promote their brand. They are certainly heading in the right direction though it may be several seasons before sustainability is achievable. The more high profile but attainable Sarries rugby becomes the easier promotion of the club will be. This is where Wasps fell short. The stadium is a hole, it's a pig to get to and there is limited community growth available.

The elephant in the room regarding wealthy benefactors is that they tend to die or can lose interest.

Ask Fulham, Man U, Liverpool and Rangers fans if they feel more secure financially after their suggar-daddies moved in.

Good point Portnoy.
Sustainability is the issue here - and like what was stated above, you need your own ground to have that.

Portnoy wrote:The elephant in the room regarding wealthy benefactors is that they tend to die or can lose interest.

Ask Fulham, Man U, Liverpool and Rangers fans if they feel more secure financially after their suggar-daddies moved in.

Glaws seem to have survived Walkinshaw's demise, Portnoy?

Cumbrian wrote:Wasps have produced so many players in the past decade for England and their academy is prodigious. LBND, Tim Payne, James Haskell, Tom Palmer, Danny Cipriani, Tom Rees, Rob Webber, Tom Lindsay, Joe Worsley, Josh Lewesey, Paul Sackey, Joe Simpson, Dom Wauldouck, Joe Launchbury, Sam Jones, Charlie Davies, Elliot Daly, Christian Wade, Jack Wallace and a good number more.

England could really suffer if they hit the pan and as a Newcastle fan, I really wouldn't be comfortable staying up in those circumstances.

Isn't that because they have links to particular schools that are rugby focused? All that would happen is other clubs would pick up the links.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:The elephant in the room regarding wealthy benefactors is that they tend to die or can lose interest.

Ask Fulham, Man U, Liverpool and Rangers fans if they feel more secure financially after their suggar-daddies moved in.

Glaws seem to have survived Walkinshaw's demise, Portnoy?

True As. But there are instances out thre which don't survive death/loss of interest/relatively shallow pockets. Bedford, Rugby, plus, now it seems, Wasps.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Wasps have produced so many players in the past decade for England and their academy is prodigious. LBND, Tim Payne, James Haskell, Tom Palmer, Danny Cipriani, Tom Rees, Rob Webber, Tom Lindsay, Joe Worsley, Josh Lewesey, Paul Sackey, Joe Simpson, Dom Wauldouck, Joe Launchbury, Sam Jones, Charlie Davies, Elliot Daly, Christian Wade, Jack Wallace and a good number more.

England could really suffer if they hit the pan and as a Newcastle fan, I really wouldn't be comfortable staying up in those circumstances.

Isn't that because they have links to particular schools that are rugby focused? All that would happen is other clubs would pick up the links.

Perhaps, but ultimately there will be less professional academy places for those kids to go to. You might argue that the competition for academy places would make those chosen stronger, but kids develop at different rates and late bloomers may be overlooked. I also think that school rugby can only take kids so far and it is the club academies that convert the potential that they have.

FkaSam

I think Sarries are doing a pretty good job of promoting themselves in the Hertfordshire and north London area, and managing to get 44000 to attend the Wembley game v Ospreys certainly shows that the fan base is there - OK, mobilising half that many to Vicarage Road on a regular basis is probably unrealistic, but they do now seem to be fixtures in the community.

I would be very sad to see Wasps go to the wall - one of the great traditional clubs in England, and in the early years of professional rugby a major power-house. Sadly though they seem to have struggled to find a suitable home close to their roots and with the capacity to provide financial security. It does though show the risks with being owned by one individual who could at any time (be forced to) withdraw funding. I hope a suitable buyer can be found, but this probably is not the best time for a club anywhere other than the football Premiership to be looking for a new investor.

="Portnoy"
True As. But there are instances out thre which don't survive death/loss of interest/relatively shallow pockets. Bedford, Rugby, plus, now it seems, Wasps.

Bedford are actually a good example of how you can save a club that was at risk. (I was playing for them when Frank Warren "bought" the club). His money attracted some big names towards the end of their careers (Rory Underwood) and also some good up and coming players (Scott Murray). Bedford had always been a well supported (comparatively for the Era) East Midlands Club, helped by having no decent Soccer team in the town. Through the 80s and early 90s on a par with neighbours Northampton, but a step below the likes of Leicester, Nottingham and Coventry. In the 70s they managed to win the national cup competition and have supplied at least two England Captains (though John Orwin was perhaps not the best ever choice to play for England, let alone captain them). So a team with a history.

Warren was obviousley excited by the thought of turning a buck and his money got the team promoted from the second division to the top tier. When he realised that big money would not be made in a hurry though, he sold on his stake in the club to a consortium that quickly ran into trouble. Things got a bit hairy and the club could have folded. However the RFU did step in to help and local support saved the club. It is now owned by local supporters and businesses and is a viable club that live within it's means. It is unlikely to rturn to it's heady days - especially as Goldington Rd does not meet the PRL requirements - but it is a good solid Championship club.


the problem for Wasps of course is that Bedford had a local support network to help it pull through. Wasps do not have that hence why they need a backer if they are to survive beyond the end of the season.

Thanks for the good wishes folks. All we can do as fans is to get behind the team, and for the team to give their utmost over the next three games. We’ll see what transpires.

:

Out of interest, does anyone know what would happen if they manage to stave off adminisitration until the summer? Would they start with minus points? (Obviously that is assuming that a new backer was found during the summer).

A real shame if they did go bust though, a lot was riding on Wycombe council agreeing to that new stadium. Good luck to all Wasps fans for the rest of the season and beyond...

I think even entering administration out of season will lead to points docked. At least if they do it during the summer and then come out OK, they have a chance of survival. Being docked points now could be catastrophic.

Reading the latest news today is disappointing for me, and should be for any Rugby fan. I am not a Wasps supporter, but one of the proud old clubs is in deep trouble, and this is not good for any of us. Anywhere.

This appears very similar to the exact kind of financial distress which overtook many clubs at the beginning of the professional era. Unfortunately, it also has a lot to do with how sports teams are managed today. I truly believe some of the problem stems from moving to Wycombe. With perfect hindsight, it seems almost foolish to move from a huge population centre in west London to far Wycombe. Hard for people to get there and lowers the overall value of the club.

For me the biggest worry is if Wasps enter administration and do not emerge - there are no guarantees. The potential exists for Wasps to fold. Hopefully the Wasps name and legacy is sufficient for someone to take a flyer on bankrolling them. But the Adams Park lease must be broken and they must return to thier roots and original fan base.

Wasps would still exist as Wasps Football Club (an amateur team) that play out of West London somewhere. Not sure if there's a direct link between the teams.

Who is going to pay for S Jones's pension plan next year as he has just signed for Wasps.?

HammerofThunor wrote:Wasps would still exist as Wasps Football Club (an amateur team) that play out of West London somewhere. Not sure if there's a direct link between the teams.

Don't write them off just yet Hammer.

I'd like to see a fan buy-out. But having no tangible assets save player contracts, It would be difficult. And the only other intangible asset would be worth quite a bit would be goodwill.

Maybe there's a possibility of a relocation like Wimbledon/MK Dons.

In the worst case example, which hopefully never comes to pass, which club would move up to the Premeirship tto take Wasps place? Bristol had the best season record in the Championship, but might not win the playoff rounds. Which other team qualifies based upon Premeirship criteria?

This may present an impetus to reduce the League size, DrG.

That's what I was thinking. I am still not sure whether that is the right move or not, but the macroeconomics of Rugby are hard to fight.

In my black little heart I hope Wasps survive and we are able to hold at 12 teams. But, I am not confident about Wasps, nor about the status quo.

I don't understand how Wasps can be in trouble and still sign contracts.

They just signed ashley Johnson on a 2 year contract. How much sense des that make?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:The elephant in the room regarding wealthy benefactors is that they tend to die or can lose interest.

Ask Fulham, Man U, Liverpool and Rangers fans if they feel more secure financially after their suggar-daddies moved in.

Glaws seem to have survived Walkinshaw's demise, Portnoy?

Tom may have sadly passed on, but the Walkinshaws very much remain as owners (75% I believe). We've had a few years of consolidation, but are now very secure financially. This is down to realistic financial management with the bonus of owning the ground and having a loyal, local fan base. It is also no coincidence our board are extreme supporters of the salary cap.

Exactly HongKong, clubs owning their own grounds is a must for financial security. I think over the next decade we'll see all of the clubs who now rent slowly buy up their own grounds to secure this.

On Sky Sports it says Wasps are making a loss of £2m a year.

This is down to realistic financial management with the bonus of owning the ground and having a loyal, local fan base

A loyal fan base that fills the stadium every week. That is where financial stability comes from. Easy correlation between the most financially successful clubs and the ones that have the best average attendance.

yappysnap wrote:Exactly HongKong, clubs owning their own grounds is a must for financial security. I think over the next decade we'll see all of the clubs who now rent slowly buy up their own grounds to secure this.

London Irish have no chance of buying the MadStad whatsoever. They have neither the Money or the Support!

As for the other clubs, were will the money come from?

Newcastle sold their ground back to the Uni.
Sale are moving from a ground owned by their Owner to one that isn't.
Leeds couldn't support a ground like Headingly if they wern't piggybacked onto the Rhinos.

The brutal truth is that big clubs (Tigers, Saints, Quins, Glouc) and the ambitious ones (Bath, Sarries and Chiefs, Worcs) will possibly flourish. the others are in for a long hard struggle!