Cleverley fight and career direction

article from http://www.thecornerstool.co.uk

Written by Ben Ashley

Saturday 25th February – WBO Light Heavyweight Championship – Nathan Cleverley v Tommy Karpency

After Saturday’s chaotic events in Germany, British Boxing will be looking for a night to remember for all the right reasons this Saturday as Nathan Cleverley defends his WBO Light Heavyweight Title against the un-fancied Tommy Karpency at The Motorpoint Arena in Cardiff. The bout is being promoted as a homecoming by promoter Frank Warren and Nathan has been well matched against the WBO’s #11 ranked fighter.

Nathan is expected to win comprehensively and I can’t see any other outcome to be honest, Karpency should provide a decent enough fight but just won’t have the strength, skills or work rate to keep up with the Champion. Cleverley is coming back from a gruelling 12 rounds with Tony Bellew and will be looking to build upon his reputation and chase a bout against the division’s elite. Nathan throws lots of punches in combinations and this can be very difficult to counter, added to the fact that his stamina is up there with the best and unless Tommy shows some serious power it would seem to shape a frustrating nights work for the challenger.

I don’t like to look past fights but at this stage of his career if Nathan wants to become a big name in World Boxing then he needs to be fighting higher class opposition or someone who had/has that reputation. There are plenty of big names in the division that Cleverley can look to in the form of Bernard Hopkins, Chad Dawson, Jean Pascal and Tavouris Cloud. Maybe a potential fight with Kazakhstan’s WBA Champion Beibut Shumenov, who has declared his interest in a possible 4 man tournament with Cleverley, Hopkins and Cloud in a similar format to the Super Six. Whether this is all talk remains to be seen, but I would back Cleverley to beat Shumenov and if he were to then a unified champion is someone who commands a lot of respect in any division. I would also say that chasing Carl Froch is the wrong thing do to for Nathan, Carl would need to step up a weight which he simply isn’t going to do as he is ranked so highly in Super Middleweight currently and is chasing another World Title. Perhaps something to look towards in 12-18 months but Nathan needs to face the big names in his own division first. Either way Nathan needs to be putting in a dominant display against Karpency, which I have no doubt he will do.

The undercard will showcase some of Wales finest youngest talents in the form of Super Featherweight Craig Evans, Light Welterweights Francis Robinson and my pick of the three Lewis Rees. The action can be seen on Box Nation TV on channels Sky 456 and Virgin 546.

Apparently Karpency is bringing his own first aid kit and will be tending too his own injuries between rounds.

Im not sure if a Cleverly v Karpency is really the antidote British boxing needs at the moment in all honesty.

As I said on another thread, Cleverly is in a different position. Pesonally I just dont think hes good enough or ready to be chasing the top guys but while he holds a title the pressure will be on him to do so. He certainly needs to be fighting better than Karpency anyway if he is to keep the heat off him.

I dont think the Karpency fight will tell us anything unless Cleverly struggles, in which case its apparent hes not world class. But after that I would look to give him some challenges that provide a good test and tell a little more about where he is in his development. Glen Johnson normally provides a test, Diaconu is a solid enough challenger so I would look at those kind of opponents. If he passes those kind of tests competantly then move him along. But I think throwing him in with a Pascal/Hopkins/Dawson or even a Cloud/Campillo/Erdei would be too much for him at the moment.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Apparently Karpency is bringing his own first aid kit and will be tending too his own injuries between rounds.

You harp on about Karpency being a nurse but Cleverly himself was a fulltime student until a year and a half ago

I agree the Clev should be fighting a opponent better than this but keeping on about the nurse thing is not really serving a purpose and quite frankly...getting a bit boring (like you)

Take it in good humour steffan, your harping on about froch getting a career ending beating got old the first time you said it. Its funnier too.

ShahenshahG wrote:about froch getting a career ending beating got old the first time you said it. Its funnier too.

Me wanting Froch to get a career ending beating is not meant to be funny though

I think Clevs next fight will be Maccarinelli anyway

Neutrals aint gonna like it but they both know they can make a shed load of cash by fighting in Wales plus its got a Cardiff City v Swansea City rivalry all over it the fight probably being one of the teams stadiums

Steffan wrote:I think Clevs next fight will be Maccarinelli anyway

Neutrals aint gonna like it but they both know they can make a shed load of cash by fighting in Wales plus its got a Cardiff City v Swansea City rivalry all over it the fight probably being one of the teams stadiums

Big Mac... Moobs whatever we call him is moving back up to cruiser isn't he? Can't see any point in a Cleverly fight.

Dunno - be interesting to see if Enzo can deck him or if cleverly will dare stay in his way. However a win for him doesnt do much except get him a little more exposure - might be worth it if it does.

School Project wrote:Big Mac... Moobs whatever we call him is moving back up to cruiser isn't he? Can't see any point in a Cleverly fight

He can make both weights so dont think he has packed in Light Heavy. He came in his last fight at 12st 10lbs which is ok for a non title fight at LH and technically breaches into Crusierweight anyway

Steffan wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Apparently Karpency is bringing his own first aid kit and will be tending too his own injuries between rounds.

You harp on about Karpency being a nurse but Cleverly himself was a fulltime student until a year and a half ago

I agree the Clev should be fighting a opponent better than this but keeping on about the nurse thing is not really serving a purpose and quite frankly...getting a bit boring (like you)

This is a fair point - and one I made in a previous thread - but you've got to admit that the image of a light heavyweight fighting nurse is quite funny.

As for the OP: I pretty much agree with manos. Clev is not ready for Hopkins or Dawson (I don't think he ever will be unless he manages to catch Bernard in that fight where he truely gets 'old'). I don't really fancy him against Pascal/Cloud/Sillakh. Campillo/Erdei/Shumenov are just about even fights, I'd say - although I'd have Clev as marginally the weakest of that bunch. As manos says Glen Johnson or Diaconu would both be a solid test. He should go for one of these guys (I could understand if he takes the Enzo fight though, which would be an ok win), then for Shumenov's belt. If he wins those he's a double title holder and he'll get a big fight. Hopefully for Cleverly's sake it will be with Cloud, who is the weakest of the other beltholders, and who he has most chance of beating. In my opinion Clev will have reached his absolute peak to achieve a run of this kind. I can't see him ever being considered in the real upper echelons of the LHW division - he'll be more of a number 5 to 10 top ten guy I think.

So Steffan you think he will fight Enzo next?

That will be THREE defenses and none of them against a top 10 ranked Light Heavy.

Love how you jump to the defense of him even though people who shouldn't even be getting a shot at a supposed major World Title are getting picked over people who actually deserve a shot.

Bellew, Nightingale, Enzo. Whos next?? McIntosh rematch probably.

The Shumenov fight fell through as soon as it was requested outside of the UK.

Following the path that Joe laid for him, take those red dragon eyes out and focus on whats really happening

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2012/01/warren-never-offered-shumenov-feb-25-unification-fight-vs-cleverly/

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:http://www.boxingnews24.com/2012/01/warren-never-offered-shumenov-feb-25-unification-fight-vs-cleverly/

That website is pure garbage the majority of the time though Dee.

I know, I read the same story on a few different sites though. That one came up first when I looked.

Would be a good fight though in Vegas like they wanted. But Franks phone must be broke or Nath can't find his passport.

The undercard of a real world champions fight would get some exposure

Maccarinelli is still not deserving of a world title shot at any weight. He wasn't two months ago and he's done F all since.

Clev has to step up the level of his opposition after Krapency. One of Campillo, Shumenov or Cloud needs to be his next outing, along with a rematch with Bellew in the near future.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:So Steffan you think he will fight Enzo next?

Yeah thats why I said 'I think Clevs next fight will be Maccarinelli anyway'. 10 out of 10 for observation though

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Whos next?? McIntosh rematch probably

You got a source or link to back that up? Otherwise I will just put it down to blatent trolling...

Ive said in the past I actually think Clev gets KOed against Enzo. Not that I think Enzo is much to rave about but think Nathans too easy to hit and Enzo does one thing hits real hard. most will disagree I know because Enzo is past it blah blah but I dont think Enzo has an awful chin and Clev doesnt hit hard enough to knock him out. (look at all Enzos KO defeats how many would have survived those shots?)

I've just really looked at Shumenov's record and I can see why Warren doesn't want anything to do with him!! Only 12 fights, but has consistently fought at a higher standard than Cleverley, including defending his world title against credible (not outstanding) opposition twice. Still, it is the fight Cleverley needs to demonstrate he can be a stand out leader at the weight.

Clev is in a lose lose situation for this fight.

If he beats him well and convincingly, he wont get any credit at all. If he struggles against him, he will be shot down for that as well.

These kind of fights are bad for a fighters rep, no doubt.

I like Clev and hope he goes on to achieve bigger things (sounds ridiculous when he is already a world champ but you know what I mean) - this fight does nothing for him.

Adam D wrote:Clev is in a lose lose situation for this fight.

If he beats him well and convincingly, he wont get any credit at all. If he struggles against him, he will be shot down for that as well.

These kind of fights are bad for a fighters rep, no doubt.

I like Clev and hope he goes on to achieve bigger things (sounds ridiculous when he is already a world champ but you know what I mean) - this fight does nothing for him.

Then he only has himself to blame, really. Or you could say he is laughing all the way to the bank

I feel a bit for Cleverly actually. I often get the impression he suffers from some kind of proxy hatred of Joe Calzaghe's early career. Young, talented Welshman under the guidance of Frank Warren, fighting a few nondescripts. There are similarities for sure. I just think the level of scorn he gets on here doesn't really fit the crime. His next fight is not great, that is a given, but judging by some comments, not especially on this thread, but on many that preceeded this, you would think he on a one man mission to destroy boxing.

It is a fair point Tina and probably one with more than a little truth, however we all recall the path Calzaghe took and the tedium of the debates it inspired and none of us have any desire to relive them. However as you have alluded to none of these are really the fault of Nathan who to me seems to have a genuine desire to face the best. I personally, whilst obviously not happy with this fight am willing to take a wait and see approach to this, if he gets Shumenov next or even a guy like Johnson as previously suggested am willing to forgive this one, because lets be honest he ain't the first guy to fight a woefully unqualified challenger

Steffan wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:So Steffan you think he will fight Enzo next?

Yeah thats why I said 'I think Clevs next fight will be Maccarinelli anyway'. 10 out of 10 for observation though

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Whos next?? McIntosh rematch probably

You got a source or link to back that up? Otherwise I will just put it down to blatent trolling...

Very good.

If McIntosh beats Bellew you can put your house on a Cleverly rematch. A link isn't needed for that. Just a bit of "common sense".

Have fun at the Mega Fight tomorrow anyway, hopefully Nathan can escape the clutches of that mean Nurse Ratchet and then find his passport to go fighting "real" champions instead of having fraudulent fights anymore like this one.

I understand where Jeff and Tino come from, but I do no agree that Cleverley really wants to test himself against the best. I see no evidence of this. Only that he throws in a comment about wanting to fight Hopkins, but then goes up against someone who is not even top ten. But I'll back Jeff's position that if the next opponent is credible, then I'll forget this one. I do believe the lad has talent and I want to see how much!

rowley wrote:It is a fair point Tina and probably one with more than a little truth, however we all recall the path Calzaghe took and the tedium of the debates it inspired and none of us have any desire to relive them. However as you have alluded to none of these are really the fault of Nathan who to me seems to have a genuine desire to face the best. I personally, whilst obviously not happy with this fight am willing to take a wait and see approach to this, if he gets Shumenov next or even a guy like Johnson as previously suggested am willing to forgive this one, because lets be honest he ain't the first guy to fight a woefully unqualified challenger

Believe me, jeff, I have no desire to see a re-run of Joes early stuff, that would too much to contemplate. I think Cleverly will take a different path, he is certainly brighter than Joe and I can see him trying to push things more with Warren. At least I hope so. I think some people have trouble disguising their hatred for Warren, and this manifests itself in an outpouring of venom for Cleverly.

If his next opponent, assuming he gets through this one, is a part time baker, candlestick maker or HR worker, then I will happily join in the scorn, but for moment, much like you, I am just about prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
If his next opponent, assuming he gets through this one, is a part time baker, candlestick maker or HR worker, then I will happily join in the scorn, but for moment, much like you, I am just about prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I for one think this is a good use for a HR worker!!

I agree with Jeff too. I guess that the way Clevery rose through the domestic scene it was expected that he would be in better standard of fights.

If he travels to fight a belt holder and not another vacated belt then I will end the criticism. Hopefully it's this summer

As I was saying the other day though Warren has to really tread carefully with him, he knows the kid cannot keep fighting the likes of Tommy K given the shellacking he has received this time round but from Warren's point of view a loss for Nathan would be something of a disaster, is obviously him and Degale have issues and even if not Degale has not really caught on with the public in a ticket selling way, Mitchell is not without issues and seems incapable of building any momentum, Gavin is struggling to get going and Chisora could be out of action for at least a year. He does not have too much that is going to shift him either tickets or boxnation subscriptions currently, so probably needs Nathan to keep winning.

rowley wrote:He does not have too much that is going to shift him either tickets or boxnation subscriptions currently, so probably needs Nathan to keep winning.

That's an interesting point, jeff. I wonder what discussions Cleverly would have with Warren if the next opponent is as poor as this one. If Warren starts putting pressure on Cleverly to fight guys that Frank sees as sacrificial lambs in order to keep Boxnation ticking over, I would hope that Cleverly makes some kind of stand. He is certainly intelligent enough to see the wood for the trees and say that enough is enough. Whether he has that courage to tell Frank to poke it is another matter.

Steffan wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Apparently Karpency is bringing his own first aid kit and will be tending too his own injuries between rounds.

You harp on about Karpency being a nurse but Cleverly himself was a fulltime student until a year and a half ago

I agree the Clev should be fighting a opponent better than this but keeping on about the nurse thing is not really serving a purpose and quite frankly...getting a bit boring (like you)

the words 'full time' and 'student' do not go together. unless you're a medical student, university life easy street. but i love the fact he was studying AND training/fighting at the same time. fair play to him.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:If McIntosh beats Bellew you can put your house on a Cleverly rematch. A link isn't needed for that. Just a bit of "common sense"

I cant wait till the next opponent is announced

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Have fun at the Mega Fight tomorrow anyway

I never said it was a mega fight. I am disappointed with Clevs level of opposition. Unlike yourself though I actually enjoy watching live boxing regardless

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:If he travels to fight a belt holder and not another vacated belt then I will end the criticism

Thats about as believable as you owning a house to bet with...

I think criticism for this particular fight is largely warranted but beyond that Cleverly is one of the infinite number of British fighters who gets blasted by over-pessimists. His cv prior to Karpency (win or lose) really isn't the worst you could come across when you consider circumstance. Cleaned up most of the domestic scene with the wins over Oakey, Boyle and McIntosh, took the next step and impressed against decent Euro opposition (Brancalion and Murat) and most recently has suffered from opponents pulling out at the last minute for the Mohammedi and Kuziemski fights.

I've seen him get criticised for fighting Bellew but he would have been blasted for not fighting him considering how they hyped the fight up in their original conference. And in beating Bellew Clev arguably brushed away the last of the credible domestic options, even though Bellew deserves a rematch.

So imo Karpency is a poor handpicked opponent as most are saying and of course Clev will be deserving of further criticism if he continues to avoid stepping up further but his career so far hasn't been nearly as bad as many are stressing.

Steff how would you think Clev would fair against Campillo?

Based on the performance against Mohammedi, I think Campillo would be all wrong for Clev and could pull off an upset. I know Mohammedi was a late replacement but Clev did seem to struggle with his awkward style which is quite similar to Campillo.

Campillo seems to fair well against the high volume come forward fighter due to his performances against Shumenov and Cloud, but they also seem to have more pop to their punches then Clev.

Thoughts?

I think Nathan will put this guy away in 4 or 5 rounds, then hopefully he fights a big name. He never performed to his best ability against Bellew imo, whereas Bellew fought the fight of his life and i think it could of gone either way on the scorecards, but if he faces a Dawson, Hopkins he will have to step up from the Bellew fight. Bellew is better than Karpency though, so hopefully he doesn't fight the better the opponent!.

Knowsit17 wrote:I think criticism for this particular fight is largely warranted but beyond that Cleverly is one of the infinite number of British fighters who gets blasted by over-pessimists. His cv prior to Karpency (win or lose) really isn't the worst you could come across when you consider circumstance. Cleaned up most of the domestic scene with the wins over Oakey, Boyle and McIntosh, took the next step and impressed against decent Euro opposition (Brancalion and Murat) and most recently has suffered from opponents pulling out at the last minute for the Mohammedi and Kuziemski fights.

I've seen him get criticised for fighting Bellew but he would have been blasted for not fighting him considering how they hyped the fight up in their original conference. And in beating Bellew Clev arguably brushed away the last of the credible domestic options, even though Bellew deserves a rematch.

So imo Karpency is a poor handpicked opponent as most are saying and of course Clev will be deserving of further criticism if he continues to avoid stepping up further but his career so far hasn't been nearly as bad as many are stressing.

Not the worst for a Euro/fringe-world level fighter (which is Clev's level IMO) but undisputably poor for a supposed 'World' champion.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:I think criticism for this particular fight is largely warranted but beyond that Cleverly is one of the infinite number of British fighters who gets blasted by over-pessimists. His cv prior to Karpency (win or lose) really isn't the worst you could come across when you consider circumstance. Cleaned up most of the domestic scene with the wins over Oakey, Boyle and McIntosh, took the next step and impressed against decent Euro opposition (Brancalion and Murat) and most recently has suffered from opponents pulling out at the last minute for the Mohammedi and Kuziemski fights.

I've seen him get criticised for fighting Bellew but he would have been blasted for not fighting him considering how they hyped the fight up in their original conference. And in beating Bellew Clev arguably brushed away the last of the credible domestic options, even though Bellew deserves a rematch.

So imo Karpency is a poor handpicked opponent as most are saying and of course Clev will be deserving of further criticism if he continues to avoid stepping up further but his career so far hasn't been nearly as bad as many are stressing.

Not the worst for a Euro/fringe-world level fighter (which is Clev's level IMO) but undisputably poor for a supposed 'World' champion.

True but you can't fault the path he has taken, picking up all domestic and european belts on his way, its not like he's jumped straight into world title al la Enzo. I don't think there would be as much dissecting aswell if he took the title from Braehmer. Its not his fault he pulled out twice.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:I think criticism for this particular fight is largely warranted but beyond that Cleverly is one of the infinite number of British fighters who gets blasted by over-pessimists. His cv prior to Karpency (win or lose) really isn't the worst you could come across when you consider circumstance. Cleaned up most of the domestic scene with the wins over Oakey, Boyle and McIntosh, took the next step and impressed against decent Euro opposition (Brancalion and Murat) and most recently has suffered from opponents pulling out at the last minute for the Mohammedi and Kuziemski fights.

I've seen him get criticised for fighting Bellew but he would have been blasted for not fighting him considering how they hyped the fight up in their original conference. And in beating Bellew Clev arguably brushed away the last of the credible domestic options, even though Bellew deserves a rematch.

So imo Karpency is a poor handpicked opponent as most are saying and of course Clev will be deserving of further criticism if he continues to avoid stepping up further but his career so far hasn't been nearly as bad as many are stressing.

Not the worst for a Euro/fringe-world level fighter (which is Clev's level IMO) but undisputably poor for a supposed 'World' champion.

Yes you're right but could that not be interpreted as a statement of how poor the LHW division is currently? Beneath Dawson/Hopkins/Pascal you get a considerable dip in class. Shumenov has had a shockingly low number of fights for a world champ and Cloud has struggled considerably ever since making the transition from tomato can kicker to world title holder.

I think Clev ought to fight someone in the Campillo/Shumenov/Cloud/Sillakh/Sukhotsky bracket (with a Bellew rematch somewhere along the way) and if/when he beats at least two or three of them he can step up to fight one of the top tier.

Well apparently Cleverly is rematching Danny McIntosh if you are to believe the great RebornD-e-orwhateverhisreallylong-username-is

bhb001 wrote:I've just really looked at Shumenov's record and I can see why Warren doesn't want anything to do with him!! Only 12 fights, but has consistently fought at a higher standard than Cleverley, including defending his world title against credible (not outstanding) opposition twice. Still, it is the fight Cleverley needs to demonstrate he can be a stand out leader at the weight.

You see this is where I despair at the negativity of the British fight fan! Shumenov is quite possibly the worst champion of the last 20 years. If you consider his wins have come against the 150 year old Byron Mitchell and 137 year old William Joppy with his best win coming from a dubious SD against Campillo then I can't understand the hatred for Clev.

Not saying Cleverly fights at the highest level because it's patently obvious he doesn't but stop making this out like a Welsh/Warren thing when the whole world of boxing seems to be at it with the exception of a few fighters. What's better, beating a nurse at the peak of his powers or fighting a guy that was an okayish paper champ about 30 years ago!

Agree we can be over cynical Super D but Karpency is indefensible, please don't try and portray it otherwise.

I'm not defending Karpency at all. Awful fight. Just saying it goes on everywhere with all these supposed champions inlcuding Shumenov.

Shumenov is a terrible draw. He fights grandads in Vegas and he's got zero fanbase. What, a Kazakhstani paper champ fighting old fodder in a foreign country to his doesn't get many fans? What a shock! Cleverly is correct to avoid this fight in Vegas because he's had a few dodgy wins there already and the money would be rubbish.

I'll stop supporting Clev if his next fight is as bad as the Karpency one though.

If Clev takes another fight like this (especially after me paying to watch Karpency) then il be losing interest myself. I dont think he will though he knows the public just wont take to him if he carries on doing that

This forum does get well OTT though you would swear Cleverly is singlehandedly bringing boxing to its destruction the way some people carry on

RebornD-e-orwhateverhisreallylong-username-is clearly has an agenda against Clev and nothing he can say will lead me to believe otherwise

And I will add its not just me jumping to defend a fellow Welshman. I think Tyson Fury takes a lot of unnecessary stick on here as well especially when certain people keep referring to his backround and upbringing which has no real bearing on his boxing career either way

I think Frank is wise enough to deliver a recognised name or big challenge next time around, i think if Cleverley puts on a good performance against Karpancy it will happen.

Steffan wrote:Well apparently Cleverly is rematching Danny McIntosh if you are to believe the great RebornD-e-orwhateverhisreallylong-username-is

It's not really that long of a username now come on. 2 words and a set of initials. You must really struggle in Uni (if your in Uni then I actually DO own a house!!)

Anyway enjoy the mega fight

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:It's not really that long of a username now come on. 2 words and a set of initials. You must really struggle in Uni (if your in Uni then I actually DO own a house!!)

Anyway enjoy the mega fight

It is a long user name. And I totally agree my spelling is disgraceful for your average undergraduate. I dont exactly use 'Microsoft Word' spellcheck for 606 though like I would with an assignment so its fair to say my bad spelling is not reflected in my Uni work

Congratulations on owning your own house...dont bet it on Cleverlty fighting McIntosh whatever you do

Yes I will enjoy the mega fight. Il give you a special wave if im on camera (will be wearing blue and white 'Vintage Fila' polo top and holding a pint of watered down Carlsberg)

Lol I'll be looking out for you my Celtic Brotha!!

Seriously but, all a bit of wind up. Have a good'un!!!

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Lol I'll be looking out for you my Celtic Brotha!!

Seriously but, all a bit of wind up. Have a good'un!!!

I will. Have a good one yourself. Cheers