After winning FO this year Djokovic would be the GOAT

by jersey Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:41 am

First topic message reminder :

Agree?

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:41 pm

socal1976 wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:to be fair socal, slams have really only become the holy grail of the sport in the last 25 years or so, and Emerson (who I always feel gets a bit under-rated) got most of his at the AO where no one else bothered to turn up anyway.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Novak's returning being better than Roger's. In his prime Federer was a superb returner, see how often he dismantled Roddick's serve at wimbledon on many occasions for instance (when conditions were faster too).

Yes but Roger never lead the ATP tour in percentage of breaks. Novak lead the tour in return games won both in 2010 and 2011. Conditions were not faster in 09 wimby than they are now. Wimby was slowed down before Roger ever played Andy at wimbeldon. If anything Roger would prefer slow conditions against the big serving and slow footed Roddick. Novak's returning blows Roger's returning out of the water. Roger again a good returner especially when facing a big server, but not a great returner by any stretch of the imagination. Could you imagine Novak going 1 for 18 in BPs against Nadal like Roger did at wimby in 08. Roger is actually a very passive returner who until recently rarely did anything but chip almost every backhand return. Novak is miles in front of Roger in this area and in terms of his backhand.

Fed's return in 2009 final was good hence Roddick's low ace count. It was the rest of his game that let him down. Prefer slow conditions against Roddick? Unless you're going to say wimbledon 2003 with Roddick serving 10mph faster is the same speed as now I don't understand. Breaks of serve isn't the complete story, if the rest of your game isn't up to the job you won't break regardless of how good your return is. I'll take your word on Fed never leading even in his heyday nevertheless all that allows you to do is possibly say that a few players may have been better that year but that has nothing to do with Novak.

by socal1976 Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Those of you who think Roger's return is better than Novak's are deluded. Everyone uses the Roddick example. First off, Roddick has a great serve but he is one guy. And the principle reason that Fed's return strategy was better against Roddick (a big server) vis a vis Nadal (not so big of a server) is because of the different styles of play and athletic skill set. Roddick doesn't move well and is not comfortable up in the court, he also not as adept as Nadal as running around fed's chipped backhand and smacking an angled forehand that forces Roger to play chip and chase. Fed matched up well with Roddick and inferior mover who could not as aggressively run around and attack the chip return.

By the numbers it is clear that Djokovic is a superior returner to Fed in his prime. This is why Fed fans are so maddening, everything of Roger's is the best and they claim some sort of objectivity and knowledge as true tennis fans that other fans don't possess. Djokovic has 2 years of leading the ATP back to back in break percentage. Roger never did that. Now if you want to go on believing that Roger is the best returner go right ahead. He really isn't, and if you don't believe the stats there is no point in arguing with your anectdotal and predisposed opinion.

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:25 pm

I think the subject of returning is broader than you're portraying it. Is a better returner just someone who gets more return winners? If that's the case then Novak's good but maybe not spectacular. What he does against Nadal is to neutralise the serve and let the rally commence where he can take over and win the point. So where do you want to give the credit to him here, his rallying skills or his neutralising serve skills?

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:33 pm

Sorry to step in to burst people's bubble but the best returners are judged on their averages of returns and stats are available on the ATP site of you look for them and Federer is NOT the best whatever their fans may claim. Ask tennis efficienados without an agenda, ex pros and pundits and when they talk about the best returners in the world the names that come up most often are Djokovic, Andy Murray and Rafael Nadal.

by spuranik Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:36 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:So where do you want to give the credit to him here, his rallying skills or his neutralising serve skills?

And one more thing, Federer may have a lesser breaks of serves compared to Djokovic but he has also produced a number of break points against all players including Nadal. I agree with one thing though, his break point conversion rate is quite pathetic. He converted 1/17 BPs against Nadal in one FO Final IIRC.

socal1976 wrote:Those of you who think Roger's return is better than Novak's are deluded. Everyone uses the Roddick example. First off, Roddick has a great serve but he is one guy. And the principle reason that Fed's return strategy was better against Roddick (a big server) vis a vis Nadal (not so big of a server) is because of the different styles of play and athletic skill set. Roddick doesn't move well and is not comfortable up in the court, he also not as adept as Nadal as running around fed's chipped backhand and smacking an angled forehand that forces Roger to play chip and chase. Fed matched up well with Roddick and inferior mover who could not as aggressively run around and attack the chip return.

Roddick isn't just the one guy. Fed neutralised many big servers and right from his early age. Watch his returning vs Pete Sampras in 2001 or against Phillipoussis in 2003 Wim. Richard Krajicek wasn't bad with serve was he? Watch this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUnpN1Vh0WA

And you cite Nadal's and Roddick's movement which is pointless. We are talking about return of serve which has nothing to do with what opponent does afterwards...

by spuranik Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:39 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sorry to step in to burst people's bubble but the best returners are judged on their averages of returns and stats are available on the ATP site of you look for them and Federer is NOT the best whatever their fans may claim. Ask tennis efficienados without an agenda, ex pros and pundits and when they talk about the best returners in the world the names that come up most often are Djokovic, Andy Murray and Rafael Nadal.

And how do you explain number of 6-0, 6-1 and 6-2 sets that Fed has won?

If he is not getting enough returns in, then this won't be a high number isn't it?

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:43 pm

spuranik I am not saying Federer is not a great returner because he is but he simply is not THE best. Probably in the world's top five but not THE best as some have claimed.

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:44 pm

To be honest I haven't decided who I think is better yet but I'll say that against the opponent who matters Novak's return is better.

by socal1976 Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:47 pm

OK Roger is the best at everything because you guys say so. Spurnik the reason I pointed out the Roddick example and the different style of players to point out that Roger's rather passive style of chipping back the backhand return and blocking back returns plays better against big power players, and does not play well against all styles of play.

Break in the fifth Novak is much better and more consistent at hitting winners off of second serves than Roger ever dreamed of being. I have a news flash for you people Roger isn't the best at every aspect of tennis from the dawn of time till the present day. There are great players that have weapons in certain areas of the game far superior to Fed. And Novak Djokovic who Nadal said is the greatest returner he has ever played and who has lead the ATP for 2 straight years and been in the top 5 since about 2008 in return statistics buries Roger in this very important aspect of tennis. Roger's serve isn't better than Karlovic's. His volleys aren't superior to Mac's. His overhead isn't better than Pete's. He isn't the best at everything, i know that is a popular misconception on this website.

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:48 pm

If people wish to count raw stats (ie slams won to judge GOAT's) so the same system has to be used for returning of serve and at thwe top of the stats it ain't Federer.

by socal1976 Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:51 pm

No Craig only the stats that show Roger as being the best at anything count. Not only is not federer at the top of the stats now, he has never lead the ATP in break percentage even in his prime, something that both Murray and Djoko have done.

By the way Djokovic breaking his opponents at an unfathomable 48 percent according to the ATP website a clear #1 with Murray the only other guy over 40 percent at 42 percent. Roger breaking at 28 percent at #26 on tour. Its not even a contest.

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:01 pm

I have no problem with Novak being the GOAT at some stage nor do I have a problem with people believing that my favourite player isn't as good as was originally thought though I'll argue against the latter more. To be honest I don't mind Novak beating Fed or even ending up with the superior H2H.

I think a win at the French open this year would put him close to the top. I don't think the calendar slam is really meaningfully different to 4 in a row. The slam count isn't the be all and end all, I'd agree. On another note, it seems that we all have a need for fans of other players to acknowledge our favourite player as the best...

by spuranik Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:01 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:spuranik I am not saying Federer is not a great returner because he is but he simply is not THE best. Probably in the world's top five but not THE best as some have claimed.

fair enough Craig. I won't claim he is the best. But he does produce a good number of breaking opportunities and takes some of them. Wink

But surely not "all serve monkey" as some claim... laughing

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:03 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:If people wish to count raw stats (ie slams won to judge GOAT's) so the same system has to be used for returning of serve and at thwe top of the stats it ain't Federer.

That doesn't sound like a very good argument for a few reasons.

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:04 pm

I don't see where people are saying Federer is all about serve. Not me in any case.

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:06 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:If people wish to count raw stats (ie slams won to judge GOAT's) so the same system has to be used for returning of serve and at thwe top of the stats it ain't Federer.

That doesn't sound like a very good argument for a few reasons.

Please can you display your evidence that Federer is the best returner in the world then? Stats say differently, experts and pundits also say differently so go on and enlighten me.

by spuranik Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:07 pm

socal1976 wrote:No Craig only the stats that show Roger as being the best at anything count. Not only is not federer at the top of the stats now, he has never lead the ATP in break percentage even in his prime, something that both Murray and Djoko have done.

By the way Djokovic breaking his opponents at an unfathomable 48 percent according to the ATP website a clear #1 with Murray the only other guy over 40 percent at 42 percent. Roger breaking at 28 percent at #26 on tour. Its not even a contest.

Pathetic double standards...

Claiming Djoko is GOAT if he wins FO and holds 4 slams which is way less than 16 or 14..

But using numbers when suits one's theory...

by socal1976 Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:08 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:I have no problem with Novak being the GOAT at some stage nor do I have a problem with people believing that my favourite player isn't as good as was originally thought though I'll argue against the latter more. To be honest I don't mind Novak beating Fed or even ending up with the superior H2H.

I think a win at the French open this year would put him close to the top. I don't think the calendar slam is really meaningfully different to 4 in a row. The slam count isn't the be all and end all, I'd agree. On another note, it seems that we all have a need for fans of other players to acknowledge our favourite player as the best...

Actually, Breakinthe fifth, I don't say Novak is GOAt right now or that he will be Goat. All I am saying is that if he has a great career with a high total slam count something like winning a calendar year GS would be seen as a big boost for him in the eyes of many critics. If he gets somewhat close to Rog's slam count and has a Grandslam and Roger doesn't a lot of people would say that he is GOAT and I think they would be right if such speculation came to pass. Sports are a strange thing, and maybe Novak ends up with 5 slams or 15 either way I am happy. I don't have to have Novak proclaimed as GOAT to gain approval from people. Roger can remain GOAT for all I care, but someone started a GOAT debate and I put together a criteria I think that if satisified would elevate Novak to that level, others don't buy that criteria that is fine. I think if any player, lets say it isn't Novak. Lets say Nadal goes buck wild next year and wins 4 slams in a row and retires with 14 slams or Novak wins the CYGS and ends up with 12-14 slams. That although this player X lacks the mythical 16 number that said player would have a viable claim on the GOAT claim.

by socal1976 Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:11 pm

spuranik wrote:
socal1976 wrote:No Craig only the stats that show Roger as being the best at anything count. Not only is not federer at the top of the stats now, he has never lead the ATP in break percentage even in his prime, something that both Murray and Djoko have done.

By the way Djokovic breaking his opponents at an unfathomable 48 percent according to the ATP website a clear #1 with Murray the only other guy over 40 percent at 42 percent. Roger breaking at 28 percent at #26 on tour. Its not even a contest.

Pathetic double standards...

Claiming Djoko is GOAT if he wins FO and holds 4 slams which is way less than 16 or 14..

But using numbers when suits one's theory...

Wrong, see the post I posted above. He would be in the GOAT debate and in strong position not just with CYGS but a slam count approaching the 16 number or getting close. If the stats are close, than one can argue the finer points. There is no arguing between 48 and 28, maybe there is an argument between 14 and 16. Plus total slams haven't always been the measure of who is the greatest of all time. That is why Emerson held that title for nearly 30 years and nobody, nobody considered him the best ever.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:27 pm

According to this link http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=9&s=0&y=0

The player with the most % career return games won is.....Coria.
Which probably goes to show that that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself.

Check out the number of clay court specialists near the top.

Sampras is 112 on the list. I recall him saying he was quite happy to break serve early in a set then just serve it out without trying too hard to break again.

by spuranik Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:42 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:According to this link http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=9&s=0&y=0

The player with the most % career return games won is.....Coria.
Which probably goes to show that that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself.

Check out the number of clay court specialists near the top.

Sampras is 112 on the list. I recall him saying he was quite happy to break serve early in a set then just serve it out without trying too hard to break again.

No use Julius really... Socal just doesn't want to see anything which won't support his theory...

Fed is 26th best... OK... What I remember is return against big servers like Karlovic, JMDP recently and Krajicek, Scud and Pete from previous generations...

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:44 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
break_in_the_fifth wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:If people wish to count raw stats (ie slams won to judge GOAT's) so the same system has to be used for returning of serve and at thwe top of the stats it ain't Federer.

That doesn't sound like a very good argument for a few reasons.

Please can you display your evidence that Federer is the best returner in the world then? Stats say differently, experts and pundits also say differently so go on and enlighten me.

Firstly the link between slams won and GOAT isn't the same as the link between return games won and best returner. The former encompasses many more factors and a tennis career as a whole whereas the latter is just one particular shot. Maybe if you compared it to say stats used to show a certain player has a good forehand or other shot then I'd think there was more of a connection. A good return is a necessary but not sufficient condition to win a lot of return games. Julius' post elaborates on my point in an interesting way with some stats as well. To be honest right now I don't think Fed is the best returner in the world. I've seen him dump too many second serve returns into the net lately. I'm just countering that the argument that the return games won stat settles this.

by CaledonianCraig Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:01 pm

At the end of the day break_in_the_fifth we both agree. Federer is not the best returner of serve in the world like some would want us believe. Let us just leave it at that.

by break_in_the_fifth Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Fair enough CC.

by Tenez Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:53 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:According to this link http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=9&s=0&y=0

The player with the most % career return games won is.....Coria.
Which probably goes to show that that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself.

Check out the number of clay court specialists near the top.

Sampras is 112 on the list. I recall him saying he was quite happy to break serve early in a set then just serve it out without trying too hard to break again.

If Coria had a serve he woudl certainly have been a top player for a long stretch.

by Tenez Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:54 pm

I think on the day, Federer is in the top 2 returner. Djoko has now put the bar a bit higher...but essentially by his outstanding fitness, flexibility.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:00 pm

according to that list you can make a case for Murray being the best returner of all time Very Happy

as the 4 guys ahead of him are/were best on clay, where you'll get more breaks of serve.

Actually, scratch that, Agassi is. 32% of return games won in an era where conditions were faster, and of course he was an all-court player, not just a clay-courter.

by Tenez Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Conds were maybe faster but serverswhere not as powerful as now. Plus the new strings gives better variation.

by Tenez Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Tenez wrote:Conds were maybe faster but server swhere not as powerful as now. Plus the new strings gives better variation.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:14 pm

Tenez wrote:Conds were maybe faster but serverswhere not as powerful as now. Plus the new strings gives better variation.

works both ways that though doesn't it? the new strigns also give the returner better control.

by Tenez Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:41 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Tenez wrote:Conds were maybe faster but serverswhere not as powerful as now. Plus the new strings gives better variation.

works both ways that though doesn't it? the new strigns also give the returner better control.

Yes, but that is why their stats are better than Fed and Agassi. They put the ball in play and that gives them a better chance of breaking...closer to 50%.

Agassi and Federer stand on teh baseline and use the server's pace to hurt him. In that department, Federer is much better than any of those guys.

Hewitt known to be a great returner has lots of problems v Karlovic for instance. Federer has an excellent record v him for instance.

As I said many times, Federer is probably the most underestimated in returning skills. Watch teh 2010 AO final again and you will see many of Andy's first serve return that I bet you woudl not have come back with all top players.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:25 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:According to this link http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=9&s=0&y=0

The player with the most % career return games won is.....Coria.
Which probably goes to show that that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself.

Check out the number of clay court specialists near the top.

Sampras is 112 on the list. I recall him saying he was quite happy to break serve early in a set then just serve it out without trying too hard to break again.

Thank you for the research. Great research and faulty logic however. Coria was by the way a top 5 player in the weak era so he is now being downgraded in your eyes? And he had one of the worst serves of all time, he better be able to return if he wanted to be even in the top 100 on tour. Of course clay courters who play half their season on red stuff are going to have their numbers inflated. But now tell me Julius what does that have to do with Nadal, Murray, Djoko, and Agassi who are all in the top 15? Nadal plays 1 more clay court events than the other top pros and Djokovic plays 3-4 a year the same exact number as Roger. So in a comparison of Novak to Roger, both players playing approximately the same percentage of clay court tennis there is no skewing. Roger and Novak basically play 90 percent of the same tournaments every year.

And you know the reason Pete is at 112, is because he wasn't a good returner, nobody considered him a particularly overwhelming return in his day and they don't know.

And by the way your research proves my point precisely Roger Federer #44, Novak Djokovic 13# and moving up the list. But that is right Roger is the best at everything and only the numbers and records that he possess are definitive.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:33 am

socal1976 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:According to this link http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfacts/Matchfacts-List.aspx?c=9&s=0&y=0

The player with the most % career return games won is.....Coria.
Which probably goes to show that that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself.

Check out the number of clay court specialists near the top.

Sampras is 112 on the list. I recall him saying he was quite happy to break serve early in a set then just serve it out without trying too hard to break again.

Thank you for the research. Great research and faulty logic however.

How can a set of statistics be faulty logic? I didn't even present an argument! Unless you think that "...that stat doesn't reflect the actual return of serve itself" is wrong?

I'd prefer it if you didn't keep saying that I said things that I didn't say. It's not the first time you've done that.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:33 am

Tenez Fed throughout his career is actually a very passive returner, only lately has he been pulling the trigger and going for returns. Through much of his heyday he would chip or block back 80-90 percent of his backhand returns. And he isn't better than Djokovic at hitting winners or stepping into returns either. See USO semi 2011, Djokovic and Murray both are very aggressive returners who step in and take the return early as opposed to fed who chips way more backhands or Rafa who runs back on the return to take a bigger swing.

by CaledonianCraig Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:40 am

Saying Roger Federer is the best returner in the world is akin to calling someone like Rory McIlroy in golf is the longest driver in the world. Simply not true. It is sad that some people do not have the grace to hold their hands up and admit that Roger Federer is not the best at everything including wiping his backside. This is where I have issues with certain Fed fans. I have conversed with Nadal fans who freely talk about his weaknesses and likewise Djokovic fans and myself a Murray fan has talked long and hard about where he needs to improve. Some Federer fans though just cannot hear one piece of criticism or one claim that a player is better than their man at any aspect of the game of tennis. Sad.

by Josiah Maiestas Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:43 am

Think Tenez is drunk or someone hacked his name. Federer is an average returner compared to Nole mate! Don't rate Murray's returns though they are played too safe.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:41 am

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Think Tenez is drunk or someone hacked his name. Federer is an average returner compared to Nole mate!

Thank you JM, have to agree with that. Although I am not against drunk posting I do it alot. Here is one person who actually listens to facts and is a fed fan. One of the first I have run across!

by gallery play Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:47 am

socal1976 wrote: Although I am not against drunk posting I do it alot.

Ah, that makes sense!

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:49 am

gallery play wrote:
socal1976 wrote: Although I am not against drunk posting I do it alot.

Ah, that makes sense!

I knew you would like that GP, don't say you don't like any of my posts anymore!

by Guest Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:06 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Saying Roger Federer is the best returner in the world is akin to calling someone like Rory McIlroy in golf is the longest driver in the world. Simply not true. It is sad that some people do not have the grace to hold their hands up and admit that Roger Federer is not the best at everything including wiping his backside. This is where I have issues with certain Fed fans. I have conversed with Nadal fans who freely talk about his weaknesses and likewise Djokovic fans and myself a Murray fan has talked long and hard about where he needs to improve. Some Federer fans though just cannot hear one piece of criticism or one claim that a player is better than their man at any aspect of the game of tennis. Sad.

Wow, how lame.

Why don't you actually read what people have written instead of assuming things that have not been said?

Who exactly said that Fed is the best returner in the world?

No one is making that claim, and of course if any one did it would be wrong. The whole point arose because socal said that Fed in his heyday was a good returner, not a great one. To which I responded that he was a great returner... that was it. No one made any fallacious claim that he is the best returner in the world.

In your haste to attack all the 'Fed fanatics' you've once again jumped to erroneous conclusions, and put across your rather dour, ill-conceived point of view, something you are sadly, all too keen to do.

ghost

emancipator - Oh divine Sylvia, thy inspiration is needed.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:09 am

Really low conduct emancipator, this is what causes blowback from other fans. Craig makes a good argument, agree or disagree, challenge his logic if you like. But the first thing out of your mouth is a personal insult. Typical and then I get lambasted for label a certain faction of Fed fans as extremists. I stopped reading your post after the first line, if the rest of it is bilefilled drivel like the first line then I can do without it.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:10 am

PM for you emancipator

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:16 am

Well at least you editted that comment out Emancipator. I read the rest of your post, I would not call someone ranked 44th all time who never lead the ATP tour in returning a great returner. I would classify Roger Federer as a very good returner, not a great one. Here is where we have a difference of opinion.

by Guest Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:17 am

Amended

What arguement/point are you talking about Socal? A fallacious point based on... nothing? It seems he is not the only one to do that. I ask again, who made the statement that Fed is the best returner in the world? If Craig is going to make such a forthright 'point' the very least he could do is get the facts str8 and stop making false generalisations. I am particularly sensitive to this since Amriti3ee actually duplicitiously changed, yes that's right, changed one of my quotes in the past to state something which I did not say. He went to all the trouble of adding an extra word to my quote which then changed the entire meaning/context of what I was saying.

by Guest Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:19 am

socal1976 wrote:Well at least you editted that comment out Emancipator. I read the rest of your post, I would not call someone ranked 44th all time who never lead the ATP tour in returning a great returner. I would classify Roger Federer as a very good returner, not a great one. Here is where we have a difference of opinion.

That's fine, we can agree to disagree.

However, it is always a good idea to read and understand what people are actually trying to say before commenting.. and that goes for everyone.

by Guest Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:23 am

Besides, and this is just for documentary purposes Mr Mod, I used the word 'Twit'; a bad choice of word but hardly the crime of the century you're making it out to be Mr Socal.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:28 am

Why did Break in, spuranik, so exhaustively argue the concept that Roger is a better returner than Novak or that they are approximately equivalent. That is the point I and craig made, that based on any statistical measure not now, not ever has Roger been as good a returner as Novak. They argued the point if they didn't argue the point I am sure neither of us would have argued against them.

See i will show you how easy it is. Novak Djokovic is a better returner than Roger. End of argument. Not because he just gets everything back either, he is actually a more aggressive returner on the RETURN ball than Roger as well. That is what is meant by both me and Craig when talking about lack of grace to admit that anyone significantly better than Roger in certain aspects of the game.

I am Djoko fan do you see me saying Novak has better volleys, serve, or forehand than FEd? Or a better slice backhand?

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:37 am

The point I was tryig to make with my link is that winning a large % of return games does not automatically equate to being the best returner of serve.
Otherwise the stats in that link would show that Rafa is a better returner of serve than Djoko, which I don't believe is the case.

Judging a return of serve thus becomes somewhat more subjective. In the past it has generally been recognised that Connors and Agassi have had the best returns of serve. Djoko (pre-2011) and Hewitt are others that spring to mind as nearing that level. Djoko 2011 onwards is more or less up there with Connors and Agassi, and I'm sure will be aiming to stay at that level.

Federer overall is just a notch down from that and is particulary good, possibly as good as the others, at negating the big servers.

by socal1976 Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:37 am

emancipator wrote:Besides, and this is just for documentary purposes Mr Mod, I used the word 'Twit'; a bad choice of word but hardly the crime of the century you're making it out to be Mr Socal.

I didn't make it down to be the crime of the century, but I view it as low conduct. I myself have gone off the reservation on occassion, so no judgements, but still it was not nice.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:40 am

socal1976 wrote:
emancipator wrote:Besides, and this is just for documentary purposes Mr Mod, I used the word 'Twit'; a bad choice of word but hardly the crime of the century you're making it out to be Mr Socal.

I didn't make it down to be the crime of the century, but I view it as low conduct. I myself have gone off the reservation on occassion, so no judgements, but still it was not nice.

And let that be the final word on that little incident. I insist!

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