Lions team based on this weekends fixtures

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this is my lions team after watching the games, many irish players probably miss out due to them having played italy...

15. Hogg
14. any of them
13. Tuilagi
12. morrison d'arcy
11. North
10. Farrell
9. Blair

8. Denton
7. Warburton (Rennie very close to him)
6. Lydiate
5. Gray (PoC very close)
4. Botha/Parling/Hamilton
3. Jones (with cole very close)
2. Ford
1. Jenkins

ive picked based on the numbers theyve played with the exception of gray as there is very little difference postionally between 4 and 5...so at 12 roberts and baritt seemd quiet in comparison with the other two

HA HA HA

coerce Rory!!!

If you lack the knowledge for arguing Tuilagi's case then mock, and joke.

Tuilagi is a traditional islander, he is big and Physical, but lacks the nous for the game, the BOD factor if you will. Unless he learns and learns fast he will be the new Chris Ashton, a sensational player changing the game for all around him, yet struggling when not put in from 10 metres with noone in front of him!

Tuilagi played twice as long, carried twice as much and made the same yards as Scott Williams. He butchered 2 definate if not the 3rd possible try, and went missing in midfeild late on, he is potentially a good player but as of yet he is still just the medias poster boy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

beshocked wrote:I like the look of Feckless Rogue's side.

Not sure how anyone can give a spot to any of the Welsh centres. They got mostly taken out of the game by Barritt and Tuilagi (literally in Robert's case).

I think the Barritt/Tuilagi has real potential to be excellent. It was their first game together too.

Oh but Tuilagi hasn't won any medals yet! That means he isn't a good player.. right??

If Tuilagi hadn't have punched Ashton he probably would have had some decent silverware. He was one of England's best players in the world cup. He's only 20 and has made a huge impact. Is he the finished article? Far from it but he is showing great promise.

Two reasons why I'm not bothering to debate this with you:

1) You think McFadden is a better 13 than Tuilagi. Try and find one irish fan (or anyone who has actually watched rugby) who agrees with you.

2) You have used the usual "who has won more medals??" argument which means nothing. Parisse is frequently said to be one of the best number 8s in the world. What has he won? Silly argument.

He is one of Englands best players, but in a side in transition, with some real average players occupying shirts (Ashton, Robshaw, Botha, Stevens etc...) this doesn't make him top class!

People are immensely one eyed on these boards and love to see the big boy sitting the 10 down, for me Strettle was much more of a threat in Englands backline, and Barritt was much stronger defencively.

And the fact that he punched Ashton meant he received much more exposure and has kept him in the reckoning!

beshocked wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

beshocked wrote:I like the look of Feckless Rogue's side.

Not sure how anyone can give a spot to any of the Welsh centres. They got mostly taken out of the game by Barritt and Tuilagi (literally in Robert's case).

I think the Barritt/Tuilagi has real potential to be excellent. It was their first game together too.

Oh but Tuilagi hasn't won any medals yet! That means he isn't a good player.. right??

If Tuilagi hadn't have punched Ashton he probably would have had some decent silverware. He was one of England's best players in the world cup. He's only 20 and has made a huge impact. Is he the finished article? Far from it but he is showing great promise.

I was being sarcastic. I think Tuilagi is a brilliant player. And his apparent lack of awareness is vastly exaggerated. He caused a bigger threat than any other centre so far to the welsh rocks (Roberts/Davies), despite just returning from injury.

He's won countless MOTM performances in a weakened team, he has scored incredible solo tries, he has lifted his team from the depths of despair to incredible victories over stronger opponents!!!

Mcfadden boast 5 tries and 2 MOTM performances in Leinsters last HC run, not bad for a kid who is trying to fill BODs boots! Earls looked good this weekend in the 13 spot, and both offer back 3 options, goal kicking options, and have notably travelled without acting like a child, jumping off boats, punching their team mates, or having their big brother attack their team mates!!

I told you both were on par with Tuilagi but they are less of a risk and offer more flexibility!!!

Tuilagi is a traditional islander, he is big and Physical, but lacks the nous for the game

Slightly embarrassing comment if you had actually a) watched much of Manu play or b) seen any of the Fuijian or Samoan 7s teams. So much more than mere physicality.

Tuilagi played twice as long, carried twice as much and made the same yards as Scott Williams. He butchered 2 definate if not the 3rd possible try, and went missing in midfeild late on, he is potentially a good player but as of yet he is still just the medias poster boy..

Kinda talking out of your backside. Williams scored a very nice 40 odd metre run in from a slightly fortunate chip and chase. That will scew the facts of the game some what. Other than that rip, kick and chase Williams didn't do anything of note. Manu on the other hand, ran round and through Jon Davies and the ogre sized Welsh wingers all game. He didn't butcher anything and could not as you say above take an extra step as he would have been practically in touch with the outside Welsh defender ready to make a tackle on Foden there was nothing on. Warburton made a great tackle that's it.

The centres you say are betters 13s are specialist 12s who don't offer an attacking threat at 13 (Barritt), a ten that plays club rugby at centre due to an average passing game (Farrell), a winger shoe horned into do a job but gets caught out positionally (Earles) and a talented but off the ball 12 who sometimes plays 13 (McFadden). Realistically the only 13 likely to take the Lions 13 shirt off of Manu is BOD.

And the fact that he punched Ashton meant he received much more exposure and has kept him in the reckoning!

Not really. He was due to play in an AP final the week after where we desperately needed him and where he would have made a telling difference (any 13 who can pick and dump SOB on the run will make a difference in a tight game). That would have given him exposure as would have the Churchill Cup where he would have scored tries for fun was he not banned.

..McFadden is not a 13, nor is he trying to fill BOD's boots.

sorry but Scott Williams rip, chip and chase was more than fortunate....

he also made a try saving tackle on Botha after his charge down, his defence on Tuilagi was excellant, made all of his 1 on 1 tackles and added more nous to the welsh backline in attack.

Tuilagi and Scott Williams both missed scoring chances ( Warburtons tackle on Tuilagi and Williams not backing himself to give the wide pass to North) but both were very good for their teams, Williams made the difference to the game.

Barritt was very good in defence, but his crash ball running wasn't great, i dont remember him breaching the gainline. Tuilagi did breach the gainline on several occasions (a yard or so over the gainline still pushes the team forward) but his defence got worse as the game went on. Roberts was ineffective due to his lack of running angles and JD2 worked the defensive system well but wasnt that noticeable throughout. The midfields took eachother to a standstill and it was a bit of brilliance that seperated the teams.

ran round and through Jon Davies and the ogre sized Welsh wingers all game. He didn't butcher anything

I could barely read past this, I hope to hutney people involved in your system are more wise...

watched much of Manu play or b) seen any of the Fuijian or Samoan 7s teams

Week in week out, he was poor against Sarries too, as was Flood, bottling out of the final DG, and SPECIALIST SEVENS PLAYERS!! They play against very young very experimental home nations teams!!

Williams didn't do anything of note.

Except beat Manu on his outside shoulder and left him in no mans land.

If your going to argue his case you have to have evidence, he is renowned to be a defencive liability, he looks for contact way to often, and watch the Warburton tackle again, Foden is less than 3 yards away screaming for his life, with 1/2p slipped outside him, guarentee'd try!

If you are the kind of people who ooo and aaa at the big collisions, you fail to see the whole picture, a slip pass or offload is far more effective than any amount of physicality.

Re watch the game, and watch Strettle again, he put's players into space 4 or 5 times who do much more than Tuilagi, Barritt goes 1 metre short, Foden makes a line break and on another day Strettle could've scored 2 tries, he was much more dangerous!

Oh and Mcfadden is a back 3 player, converted from Fh as a kid, and moved to 12 on the odd occasion.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh and Mcfadden is a back 3 player, converted from Fh as a kid, and moved to 12 on the odd occasion.

Are we talking about the same player?? McFadden is a 12! He is not a back three player

Really, then how come he has more Leinster caps at wing than any other position??

Because D'Arcy is the starting 12 for both Leinster and Ireland. McFadden is thought of as his heir to the 12 shirt, and probably should already be starting there. He is not a 13 and plays crap everytime he plays there. And he certainly isn't a back three player.

He is a converted 10, moved to the back 3 (wing) He covers 13 a lot as BOD is constantly injured, and has the odd game at 12 as Leinster have no cover there whatsoever.

He has played wing for Leinster more than any other position, but is generally told he will cover 13 long term.

Not sure how we got to arguing about Mcfadden...

I am convinced you have made that up. Where did you hear that McFadden was told he is going to cover 13 long term? You ask any Leinster/Ireland fan if McFadden is going to be a 13 and see what they say. We got onto talking about McFadden because you said he is a better 13 than Tuilagi and offers more flexibility. Which, no offence, is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on these forums yet.

Rory

You isnult yourself if you actually beleive that!!!

I hear it from UCD, Blackrock, and in general the clubs I help coach at in and around Dublin.

I'm guessing you wake up after and eat your cornflakes?

EDIT: If you want to realise just how wrong you are, please go onto the club forums and ask the Leinster fans if they think McFadden is a 13, if they think he is good there, if they think he is long term cover there, and what his best position is. I'm sure the name Eoin O'Malley will pop up a few times with regards to who the next 13 is for Leinster. Have you actually watched Leinster/McFadden this season btw?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Lydiate did let go of Warburton in mid air causing him to nearly injure himself. Then again the ref blamed Robshaw and Wales won a penalty so I'm not sure whether to mark him down for that or not. I thought Croft played very well and was the pick of the England backrow so plenty of options.

Yeah good one. It was Lydiate's fault aye, nothing to do with Robshaw. Do you know how hard it is to keep hold of a jumper when he leans or anything, yet alone when he's being pulled down?

Rory - glad we have an Irishman arguing for Tuilagi, just makes what he is saying seem even more ridiculous. I liked his comment about Tuilagi being poor against Sarries, I guess he missed the part when he set up the first try for Slater and then made a 40m break from his own line to put Leicester in position for the winning drop goal in the last minute in his first full game back after basically 3 months out.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Killer he was put into a 10 metre gap and got tracked down! Tuilagi was Tuilagi V Sarries, he huffed and Puffed but inevitably the door stood strong. It was the Leicester pack who did the job there, and the Murphy after elbowing Flood out of a puddle of his own wee wee.

Malley is ok, but he's only a year younger, he's smaller, lighter and not as quick as Mcfadden, plus Mcfadden really outshone him at Old belvadere (spelling) a few years back.

bluesman - I am done debating with you, the stuff you're saying is really bizarre and I feel you would argue the world is flat. Like I said, please do talk to some Leinster fans and see if any of them agree with the stuff you have said.

I work with Leinster fans mate, infact I work with 'development officers' in the region. I base my opinions on what I have seen first hand, and what some people I respect and know tell me they think.

I take everything written on boards like these with a pinch of salt, although it's fun to debate, beleiving is a whole different ball game.

How many times have you seen O Malley and Mcfadden play together in the flesh???

thebluesmancometh wrote:I work with Leinster fans mate, infact I work with 'development officers' in the region. I base my opinions on what I have seen first hand, and what some people I respect and know tell me they think.

I take everything written on boards like these with a pinch of salt, although it's fun to debate, beleiving is a whole different ball game.

How many times have you seen O Malley and Mcfadden play together in the flesh???

Zero, only on TV as I am from Northern Ireland. However I don't even get your point, as McFadden would have played 12 in those games with EOM at 13

Tuilagi just did what Roberts does for Wales. Gave them valuable go-forward. Nothing fancy. I put him in my team because I thought he was the best outside centre. Simple as that.

McFadden is a 12. He covers wing, where he's very useful, and outside centre, where he's not great for Leinster, let alone Ireland, let alone the Lions.

Mcfadden is a 10 by heart, might be wrong but don't think he and Malley have started at centre for Leinster, but saw him play 10 and 13 once.

I never said Mcfaddens best position is 13, but thats where he's going, It's where he and others feel is his best chance of long term international rugby, and his S and C proggramme is certainly tailored toward it.

He is an excellent ball player, and is actually quite good defencively, he hasn't had a real chance for Ireland as he's only played in tough games, but where he may not have Tuilagis physicality he is better in every other phacet.

Tuilagi reminds me of Flutey, especially for the lions, killing off back play and frustrating the wingers, when BOD got inside Shane Williams it showed with 2 test tries.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mcfadden is a 10 by heart, might be wrong but don't think he and Malley have started at centre for Leinster, but saw him play 10 and 13 once.

I never said Mcfaddens best position is 13, but thats where he's going, It's where he and others feel is his best chance of long term international rugby, and his S and C proggramme is certainly tailored toward it.

He is an excellent ball player, and is actually quite good defencively, he hasn't had a real chance for Ireland as he's only played in tough games, but where he may not have Tuilagis physicality he is better in every other phacet.

Tuilagi reminds me of Flutey, especially for the lions, killing off back play and frustrating the wingers, when BOD got inside Shane Williams it showed with 2 test tries.

McFadden is not going to be a 13, for either Leinster or for Ireland. I don't know where you heard this, but he isn't. If it makes you feel better though, you carry on thinking that. McFadden and EOM have started at 12 and 13 a few times this season actually. I honestly feel you are talking about a totally different player in the way you describe McFadden. I honestly am clueless as to what you are talking about.

Lots of good ideas for the starting 15 above, but there are also some great prospects for a match winners to come off the bench:

Scott Williams... no need to comment on his recent impact
Ben Morgan, in 18 months he may be fit enough to last the match but for now he is a last 20 mins powerhouse
ROG.... ok he might be completely passed it by then but some of his drop goal wins in the last seconds for Munster in the HC have been brilliant.
Halfpenny, saved Wales' bacon against Tonga in the WC
Adam Jones ... When he came on in the last Lions tour to totally turn the scrum war. Of course I am only bringing him on as a sub for himself, there is no point not having the best prop in the NH on the pitch for the full 80 minutes( Ben Morgan needs to learn from where Adam was 8 years ago)
Keith Earls .... BOD will be back so Earls will still have to come of the bench to shine briefly but brightly

Tried to think of a Scottish match winning sub but mmmmmmmm

So will have to resort to

Mike Catt... I still hate him for the 2003 quarter final against Wales

I agree with the op when based on last weekends games. Lydiate was immense

wonder_man wrote:I agree with the op when based on last weekends games. Lydiate was immense

Just try and tell Rory that!He is as one-eyed as possible.Nobody is better than Ferris!!!!

Taffineastbourne wrote:

wonder_man wrote:I agree with the op when based on last weekends games. Lydiate was immense

Just try and tell Rory that!He is as one-eyed as possible.Nobody is better than Ferris!!!!

Firstly, where have I ever said nobody is better than Ferris? Secondly, there was no need to bring me up.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

wonder_man wrote:I agree with the op when based on last weekends games. Lydiate was immense

Just try and tell Rory that!He is as one-eyed as possible.Nobody is better than Ferris!!!!

Firstly, where have I ever said nobody is better than Ferris? Secondly, there was no need to bring me up.

Are you some sort of censor?

You brought me up to have a dig and to bitch. The comment you made had absolutely no contribution to anything, so why don't you just grow up?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You brought me up to have a dig and to bitch. The comment you made had absolutely no contribution to anything, so why don't you just grow up?

Toys back in pram!Look, you seem to be able to pick an argument in a phone box.Suck it up.Become a man.Really some players that do not play for Ulster and Ireland are better.Bitter pill that will become easier as you mature.I wont massage your ego by responding further.Find another to argue with.Raise your bar.

I like reasonable debate with mature posters. Nowadays there seem to be a number of posters (mostly welsh) incapable of that. Can't take any criticism of their own players. If you want to realise just how silly you are, take a look at the ulster threads and see that I am critical of many of our own players also. But I don't think you have talked about rugby yet on these forums other than to express your love for Lydiate.

Mostly welsh??

NICE!

Rory by the way mate, I need to apologise for the parade comment earlier, it wasn't meant to sound so nasty, just the way I talk with the Irish boys, little blunt, hope theres no hardys.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory by the way mate, I need to apologise for the parade comment earlier, it wasn't meant to sound so nasty, just the way I talk with the Irish boys, little blunt, hope theres no hardys.

Its cool, I have a feeling I misunderstood what you said anyway, and took it more personally than I should have.

I tend to fall in love with the newest Irish catchphrase I hear when over there, I was saying Roish for 3 months and am now on sydney parade for everyone who disagrees with me...

Harder to smile cheekily on here!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mostly welsh??

NICE!

Sorry, but so far that is the impression I have got. I think you are a passionate bunch, but some need to really learn how to take criticism. I criticise players from all countries/clubs (including my own). My opinions on Lydiate (that he didn't deserve MOM against Scotland, and that I feel he is overrated and that other 6s do what he does and more) especially seems to have caused an uproar.

You are smack on, he is an average out and out 6, doesn't do half of the dirty stuff you'd expect, but because he does some flashy ball carrying and his line speed is excellent he looks good to an untrained eye.

That said I think he balance our back row nicely, he's no Ferris but he fit's into our back row better.

I agree, but I would edit that post or else you are going to get hit by a horde of angry fans!

Nah I have my analysis software on now, I can't be beat.

Besides deep down everyone knows Ferris is a freak of nature, but the Irish backrow is just a bit too flaresy at present, and it needs someone to be the dog at the breakdown, who do you drop, Heaslip, Ferris or SOB??? Rather you make that decision than me...

Although I'd like to see Henry given a shot, add a bit of balance, it's not always about having your best players on the park, but best team.

Morrison played and Scotland scored tries for once. Morrison gives the Scottish backline that direction they sorely lack without him. If fit Morrison should always be picked at 12 for Scotland and with Roberts injured is probably lacking opposition for the Lions 12 jersey. Possibly Darcy being the closest as he showed flashes of his old self on saturday.

Based on the tournament so far JD2 has to be given the 13 jersey.

rhino

I think your not giving Farrell and Barritt enough credit, they were good this weekend, and Barritt especially tackled evrything that even looked at the 10 channell wrong!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nah I have my analysis software on now, I can't be beat.

Besides deep down everyone knows Ferris is a freak of nature, but the Irish backrow is just a bit too flaresy at present, and it needs someone to be the dog at the breakdown, who do you drop, Heaslip, Ferris or SOB??? Rather you make that decision than me...

Although I'd like to see Henry given a shot, add a bit of balance, it's not always about having your best players on the park, but best team.

I think you've just put your finger on it. Ferris is a great player and probably will be lions 6 but lydiate is invaluable as part of this particular welsh back row combination. Gatland pursued a similar policy with his great wasps back row which was very balanced with worsley playing the equivalent role to lydiate. kidney of course as you acknowledge is pursuing the opposite approach of picking the best 3 back rowers in ireland as opposed the best combination. The lions test selection may depend on combinations rather than just individual flair.

Maybe, will Gats go for the Warbs Lyd with an SOB at 8, I'd like to see that, but with Ferris Heaslip and the possibly a more mature and fit Morgan I'm looking forward to it.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe, will Gats go for the Warbs Lyd with an SOB at 8, I'd like to see that, but with Ferris Heaslip and the possibly a more mature and fit Morgan I'm looking forward to it.

He'll be spoilt for choice in the back row. All 4 nations now have some excellent back rowers (the injured Tom Wood included) and it will be difficult enough picking which of them should tour let alone the test team. I'd be surprised if SOB got the nod ahead of Heaslip or one of the other specialist 8s but you will know more about his versatility than me.

I'm not sure about Morgan. He's come a very long way in a short space of time but I think we'll need to see another few internationals to see how good he really can be. He does remind me a bit of scott quinnell as a ball carrier but perhaps without quite the same all round skills.

He is very dynamic, but lacks experience and was a little off the pace at the top level, he will get better, but needs another ball carrying option if he is to avoid getting crowded out.

I think SOB would fit into a Warb Lyd sandwhich much nicer than heaslip, he's more of a falatau type IMO.

And SOB was devestating against Aus in the WC.

Mine would be Warb Lyd SOB with Ferris on the bench, versatility, dynamism, athletisicm and breakdown prowess throughout!!!