Why No Penalty Try?

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Why didn't England get a penalty try?

Priestlands foul play stopped Corbs scoring a certain try.

Walsh bottled it.

Thoughts on this please.

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]Guys I'm not sure who you think was running the line but North and Strettle were both at full tilt and had been for 20 yards, because the linesman couldn't get beside them in time to see whos fingertips pushed the ball out is not his fault, as I said Strettles body blocks the refs view, Norths the Linesmans view who was 10 metres behind trying to keep up (poor bugger)

Plus the ball was about 5mm from Strettles fingers, I had to watch it twice to see who pushed it out... in slow motion, the ref and Linesamn had one chance to see it from 10 meters away plus with obstructed views against 2 of the quickest players on the feild, ne ref in the world could've seen and confidently called that a yellow and PT!!!

/quote]

Forgive me if I have misremembered the incident but who got the throw in at the lineout after North's slap into touch?

If it was England then one of the officals must have seen it come off North?

Why didn't Wales get a penalty try when they munched the English scrum twice on their own line and were matching them backwards. ????

Or carry it.

All of this, it's happened, time to move on and concentrate on other things.
Like how well some of your young guys played, there's a great future in store for both teams I think...and dare I say it, hope.

I'm not sure there is a precedent for a penalty try after just two scrum penalties near the line.

If Wales were so sure they were in ascendency they should have reset another scrum. I've seen penalty tries after 3 or 4 resets, but never to my knowledge after 2.

Perhaps Wales were worried that if they reset they'd be penalised for the illegal lack of binding finally and lose the opportunity for 3 points?

doctornickolas wrote:Why didn't Wales get a penalty try when they munched the English scrum twice on their own line and were matching them backwards. ????

Or David Strettle deliberately knocking the ball on pretending to go for an interception to avoid a yellow card, cynical.

biltongbek wrote:

Impossible Standards wrote:

"Plus there were defenders in place."

No there wasn'

Are you serious? I suggest you watch the highlights because you will see about 4 welsh players are back in the defensive line. Anyway the prop had knocked on so it's irrelevant.

Nice to see some posters gracious in defeat. Wonder what other reasons England didn't win you can conjure up?

Priestland was there and I am pretty sure he was a defender.

It is really a very simple law, no need for this confusion.

IF Priestland was the only defender nearby AND he came running back from the halfway line towards the ruck AND interfered with the ball carrier FROM that offside situation, ONLY then is the possibility of a penalty try an option.

If Priestland WAS ALREADY THERE, but in an offside position then he would be penalised for OFFSIDE ONLY.

Simples.

Ok youve wordly that confusingly but whats being said here is that if hed waited for Corbs to catch the the ball then he woudlve been onside and able to tackle legally, and possibly prevent the try.
Also its arguable that there were other players in position to make a tackle and that Corbs may not have caught it.



Mitey
You coulkd in theory give a PT for the first scrum offence crossing the line. If the ref is staisfieed that the drive of a srum was only stopped by the defending side collpasing and they it wouldbve given the 8 or SH and easy chance to touch the ball down over the line then it should be given. A yellow if the collpase was clearly intentional.
Whats dodgy is when refs award PTs when the scrum have never actually been driven significantly backwards. Penalties and yellows yes, but unless its clear the scrum would be driven over the line then no try should be awarded.

IronMike wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Why didn't Wales get a penalty try when they munched the English scrum twice on their own line and were matching them backwards. ????

Or David Strettle deliberately knocking the ball on pretending to go for an interception to avoid a yellow card, cynical.

He was clearly trying to intercept though. Nothing like the lad in the Scotland game which was pretty blatant. And certainly nothing like the North one.

But these things, like forward passes, are notoriously hard for refs to call.

I agree they could PSW, but I've rarely seen it and can't ever recall seeing it at international level.

I have seen players carded for deliberately throwing a ball into touch on their own goal line, or deliberating going offside just a meter from the line under their own sticks to save a try from a charge down for instance.

Why didn't Wales get a penalty try when they munched the English scrum twice on their own line and were matching them backwards. ????

Because they were still several metres out when the front rows came up. A penalty went to Wales and they decided they wanted the 3 points. The could have scrummaged again and looked for the YC or PT but decided against it.

Or David Strettle deliberately knocking the ball on pretending to go for an interception to avoid a yellow card, cynical..

You are allowed to go for an interception and fail to gather. Two hands out and clearly going for the catch, that's never a penalty and the ref got that one right. One hand out and it would have been a ten minute sit down.

"He was clearly trying to intercept though."

I agree with that.

For some reason, Wales seem to be having a lot of luck with reffing decisions this year. We've had the dirty end of that particular stick enough times in the past, so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can understand England feeling a bit aggrieved on this occasion.

MrsP

The ref had to give something, they went off what they beleived happend last, and because they couldn't see exactly what happened would it have been fair to have given a PT and yellow card on a hunch? An England lineout was a sensible call, theres no way of knowing that North pushed the ball out on purpose!

Mitey

The first scrum can result in a penalty try, refs just try to give the benefit of the doubt as if we're being honest they are not 100% sure what goes on in there, so in general they edge their bets that if a scrum manages to get mullered 2 or 3 times theyre under real pressure, but as someone said both front rows had come up due to Hartley so technically the scrum had ended before the attempt to score.

As above I would prefer to see the first time scrum going forward awarded the penalty try over 3 different minor issues by 3 differing players any day of the week!

North tapped the ball down to stop Strettle getting his hands on it (which isn't an offence as far as I'm aware). I don't think his intention was to knock in into touch.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:North tapped the ball down to stop Strettle getting his hands on it (which isn't an offence as far as I'm aware). I don't think his intention was to knock in into touch.

Bull!

BlueNote wrote:
For some reason, Wales seem to be having a lot of luck with reffing decisions this year. We've had the dirty end of that particular stick enough times in the past, so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can understand England feeling a bit aggrieved on this occasion.

It tends to follow teams when they play good rugby. nothing wrong it is frustrating for the other team, but that is the way it goes.

I know he was trying to intercept.

I'm just humouring myself by looking at things with one-eyed delusion like some other posters.

"For some reason, Wales seem to be having a lot of luck with reffing decisions this year."

I wonder why?

Its almost like the Rugby Gods (at the IRB) are looking down on them.

HERSH wrote:"For some reason, Wales seem to be having a lot of luck with reffing decisions this year."

I wonder why?

Swings and round abouts hersh.

"It tends to follow teams when they play good rugby"

That may be why it's taking a bit of getting used to, I guess!

A lot of luck is harsh, I'd say Wales are having the rub of the green at the minute, with refs and bouncing balls etc... But hey, Munster have been having the same thing for about 10 years now, and in 2003, England were certainly getting a good time of things.

Billtongs right, the sides who look to play the better rugby, and are in good form tend to get these things, there were certainly a few reactions on sat that highlighted the difference between Wales and England at the minute.

"Good rugby"

Did I miss something on Saturday England and Wales were pretty equal IMO, they just cheated better (all teams cheat)

Yeah, hersh but they got better at "cheating" for a while now, and referees notice that.

I know this is a WUM and this response can be seen as a bite, but for what its worth my view on the incidents raised:

1 Priestland - correct call. Penalty and yellow. He wasn't behind the back feet and Wales had been warned for this previously. Penalty try? Corbisiero had knocked on before the tackle, wouldn't have crossed Walsh's mind and rightly so.

2 North - Penalty try and yellow if not red in my view. He hit it into touch deliberately.

3 Strettle advantage - how much advantage can you play? They got the ball over the line, but failed to ground it. They had had more than enough advantage. Walsh should have called it 'advantage over' when Brown had the ball and this would not be an issue now (not that it is anyway).

On the flip side, Walsh missed a couple for us at the breakdowns. He didn't help England and they carried the brunt of the poor decisions. It's a tough life lads and I sympathise with you

Wales got away with a few things on Saturday that Walsh and his officials should be embarrassed about, but it is swings and roundabouts, England will get there share of poor decisons going for them sooner or later.

The problem I have is that it always seems to be against Wales that we don't get the rub of the green. I work with three Welsh persons, bragging rights over for another year.

Glas

2. They will never award a penalty try in a situation where there isn't a undesputed reasoning that a try will be scored.

3. advantage is a matter of perception, no referee ever allows exactly the same advantage as each situation is unique.

Glas a du wrote:I know this is a WUM

No wum intended I knew Wales would win and I said so all last week, but thanks for taking the time to respond.

Fair enough, but on any definition of advantage a try scoring opportunity, as in getting over the line, must be enough!

The only penalty tries I've seen given that wernt from scrums were when there is a 2 on 1 a meter from the line and the defender deliberately knocks on to avoid a try scoring pass, you could argue whether the pass would have been caught by the last player but the benefit of the doubt is given.

Strettle still had to compete for the ball with North, and Priestland was still in defence.

This reminds me of the Wales Scotland 2010 game where Byrne made a break chips the ball ahead and is tripped, the referee says its not a penalty try, even though if Byrne had not been tripped he was surely going to score it.

If there is a finite amount of luck with refs within the 6 Nations, and each team gets a share, then Wales have stolen all Scotlands. As a neutral I really feel for them this year. Every 50-50 has gone against them as well as a fair few that were just bad calls.
Just to be clear - Wales won on Saturday because they were better, not because they were luckier. If England were luckier, it would have been a draw rather than a win for England IMO.

HERSH wrote:

Glas a du wrote:I know this is a WUM

No wum intended I knew Wales would win and I said so all last week, but thanks for taking the time to respond.

No problem. Just you accused me of biting on a debate last week. One bitten and all that

You're all forgetting the naf pop up from the guy on the floor, holding on to the ball for ten minutes trying to decide whether to pass it or not and when he finally did he fluffed it.

Penalty to Wales for playing the ball off feet

Therefore priestland was hard done by.

Hersh any other decisions that should have gone England's way? Get the anger off your chest. Here's some welsh ones...


How about Wales getting a penalty try in the first five minutes when they smashed the English scrum 5 yards out.

What about Dickson being yellow for repeatedly coming round off side at the scrum?

What about robshaw coming through on Warburton? You're supposed to jump straight up not across underneath the jumper - it was a penalty and as Brian Moore said it should be at least yellow.

Ifs and buts, ifs and buts...

...and Priestland was still in defence.

Clear penalty try then!

Glas

2. Key points here are from your point of view, after how many replays in slo mo???

3. Why does nobody remember the Scottish game when talking about this advantage decision? The Scots were playing advantage when they went over, as it went to TMO advantage is officially over.

And why are we talking about England not getting the rub of the green, they did against Italy and Scotland, and the ref made one decision that could've gone for them (North) you are not having bad luck.

They'll be wondering why North didnt get a red card when he tackled Farrell next.

I didn't think it was even a penalty, certainly not a yellow card. Hardly offside and Corbs messed it up anyway. HERSH and mitey, you guys are getting really desperate now, calling for penalty tries that weren't even there. Two tries in three games which included Italy and Scotland! Will England score another try?

biltongbek wrote:Glas

2. They will never award a penalty try in a situation where there isn't a undesputed reasoning that a try will be scored.

3. advantage is a matter of perception, no referee ever allows exactly the same advantage as each situation is unique.

Bill, I think you are talking a lot of sense here. When are you guys coming back to Cardiff, we could do with that 2nd win against your team .

slartibartfast wrote:You're all forgetting the naf pop up from the guy on the floor, holding on to the ball for ten minutes trying to decide whether to pass it or not and when he finally did he fluffed it.

Penalty to Wales for playing the ball off feet

Therefore priestland was hard done by.

Hersh any other decisions that should have gone England's way? Get the anger off your chest. Here's some welsh ones...


How about Wales getting a penalty try in the first five minutes when they smashed the English scrum 5 yards out.

What about Dickson being yellow for repeatedly coming round off side at the scrum?

What about robshaw coming through on Warburton? You're supposed to jump straight up not across underneath the jumper - it was a penalty and as Brian Moore said it should be at least yellow.

Ifs and buts, ifs and buts...

Wales didnt push the scrum over the line, theres no gaurntee the collpase stopped a try...been covered several times.

(c) Repeated infringements: standard applied by referee. When the referee decides how many offences constitute repeated infringement, the referee must always apply a strict standard in representative and senior matches. When a player offends three times the referee must caution that player.
Given Dickson only infringed 3 times in the game even if these were all for the same offence the worst he could have been given was a warning.

Robshaw one...possibly yes, but the Welsh forwards were also illegaly lifting which is actualy why the incident occured in the first place.

Q- How about Wales getting a penalty try in the first five minutes when they smashed the English scrum 5 yards out.

A - You can't give a penalty try after only two attempts, plus the binding wasn't legal Wales took the points before Walsh saw it, smart move.


Q - What about Dickson being yellow for repeatedly coming round off side at the scrum?
A- That’s what all scrum halfs do, they are weasels

Q - What about robshaw coming through on Warburton? You're supposed to jump straight up not across underneath the jumper - it was a penalty and as Brian Moore said it should be at least yellow.
A - But you are allowed to compete for the ball, the Welsh lifters (who weren't props) went missing, wasn't a penalty IMO.

Will England score another try?

Yes when hodgeson is back in to charge down a kicker!

Well here's an interesting question - when there is a yellow card on the tryline, it does seem wrong to have the same punishment as a yellow card on the halfway line. Should the referee have the power to penalise a side even further for a cyncial infringement on the tryline? At least at times when a referee 'thinks' about a penalty try, even if he does not award one.

A penalty try is when a try 'certainly' would have been scored. Maybe there is a case for 'probably' with a harsher punishment?

A restart with a penalty to the oppostion?
A 12 or 15 minute sin bin?

Or is this making a complicated game even more complicated? I think I've just answered my own question

Asked and Answered!

mr_stonelea wrote:Well here's an interesting question - when there is a yellow card on the tryline, it does seem wrong to have the same punishment as a yellow card on the halfway line. Should the referee have the power to penalise a side even further for a cyncial infringement on the tryline? At least at times when a referee 'thinks' about a penalty try, even if he does not award one.

A penalty try is when a try 'certainly' would have been scored. Maybe there is a case for 'probably' with a harsher punishment?

A restart with a penalty to the oppostion?
A 12 or 15 minute sin bin?

Or is this making a complicated game even more complicated? I think I've just answered my own question

You are already far mor elikely to get a yellow for red zone infringments. Lets not make this even more incosistent., game chagin, and contentious. Theres also the case for saying that escalating the levels of punishment only decreases the chances of a ref making the call in the first place for fear of being wrong. Its alsways easier to hide behind "I didnt see it".

HERSH wrote: very good peter

Idris - England 1 RWC - Wales 4th place

Oh GOD Hersh, you're starting to sound like the Welsh fans who keep going on about the 70s. Its getting on for 9 years ago now Hershy -NINE years. Pretty soon it'll be into double figures then what'll you do?? Will you be like the wendyball fans still going on about 1966? I'd hate for you to still be going on about it in 2050 sounding like Uncle Albert. "During the war......."

Without sounding like a total arse, technically we have placed 3rd

mr_stonelea wrote:Or is this making a complicated game even more complicated? I think I've just answered my own question

Its only complicated when teams play against Wales!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Without sounding like a total arse, technically we have placed 3rd

To avoid that can you translate into a meaningful sentence please?

tatterd wrote:

HERSH wrote: very good peter

Idris - England 1 RWC - Wales 4th place

Oh GOD Hersh, you're starting to sound like the Welsh fans who keep going on about the 70s. Its getting on for 9 years ago now Hershy -NINE years. Pretty soon it'll be into double figures then what'll you do?? Will you be like the wendyball fans still going on about 1966? I'd hate for you to still be going on about it in 2050 sounding like Uncle Albert. "During the war......."

TBH the 70's are three to four decades ago, so that's not really like 9 years at all which is less than one decade.

Yep

It's easy to play against England

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Without sounding like a total arse, technically we have placed 3rd

To avoid that can you translate into a meaningful sentence please?

Our best result was 3rd in 1987.

Glas a du wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Without sounding like a total arse, technically we have placed 3rd

To avoid that can you translate into a meaningful sentence please?

Our best result was 3rd in 1987.

Right OK I get it now sorry!

Well done plucky Wales

3rd

You're getting worse, plus SA wasn't envolved in that devalued RWC.