Chinese Whispers

Afternoon lads,

Just a quick one to break the monotony of a dissertation that I'm in the middle of. Well as you all know, boxing is a sport that is full of legends, myths and rumours. So what I'm wanting to know is which stories have become so ingrained in boxing folklore that the truth and the myth have become blurred. The likes of Dundee tearing the hole in Ali's glove against Cooper. Oe Frazier fighting most of his career with at most partial sight in his left eye. Or whatever other examples yous can think of!

Over to you,
Cheers

Think the whole idea Dempsey had loaded gloves against Willard has been debunked about as thoroughly as a rumour could be but still seems to have legs and often gets reported as fact.

Another one involving Willard is that Johnson took a dive in their fight. That often gets peddled as a fact.

That Willie Pep won a round without throwing a punch. Evidence both ways, hotly disputed for well over half a century, and likely to be debated just as much for another half century, too.

'No Mas', when in fact what Duran said as he threw in the towel against Leonard was "I don't want to fight with this clown anymore."

That Tyson was the victim of a rank injustice when being 'robbed' against Douglas, due to the long count. Riles me up just typing it...

Another one is the whole idea Billy Conn was dominating Louis in their first fight, he was in front no doubt but I think I am right in saying if Louis had swept the final three rounds he would have won the fight. Is often reported Conn only needed to stay on his feet to win, but this is not quite accurate

Cheers lads. Goes to show you just how a story can be peddled until it is almost accepted as fact. And how a reputation and opinion can be made on a fighter, particularly by casual fans that hear the story.

Apparently the legend that Harry Greb and Mickey Walker had a punch up outside a Broadway bar an hour or two after their middleweight title scrap has been brought into disrepute, also.

Well as an eye witness Windy could you shed any light on it? only joking mate.

One that springs to mind is the story of Dundee and the ring ropes in the Ali/Foreman fight just because I read it recently on the bbc.

The idea that Dundee and Ali had crafted this rope a dope plan and gone around loosening the ropes never happened. Dundee actually wanted the ropes tightened. What had happened was the ring was erected too early and in the humidity and heat of Zaire the ropes had lossened up and began to sag.

Another one I've just remembered.

This one hasn't officially been debunked, but the story that Jack Johnson is casually picking Stan Ketchel's teeth out of his glove immediately after having pole axed him doesn't make sense to me.

On film it looks as though Jack is using his right hand to fiddle with his left glove, but it was his right hand which stretched out Ketchel, so any teeth ought to have been in that one.

I'm not convinced by Ketchel's knockdown of Johnson, come to that. Johnson is already falling before the punch lands ( take a look at it, frame by frame, ) and, unless there are crucial frames missing, the punch lands behind Johnson's ear. Sensitive spot, for sure, but nonetheless not the jaw as is routinely reported.

The Boss wrote:Well as an eye witness Windy could you shed any light on it? only joking mate.

Ha!

Nice one, Boss.

Manos, as regards the rope a dope has Dundee ever tried to peddle that story himself?

The Boss wrote:Manos, as regards the rope a dope has Dundee ever tried to peddle that story himself?

He can be heard quite clearly screaming at Ali to get off the ropes during the fight, so I would hope not!

To be fair, Boss, Dundee instigated the split glove story, too. Neither Cooper, nor anybody else, had ever complained about it beforehand.

Cheers Union. Never really listened while watching the fight. Windy, bit of self praise or why do you think hed bring it up?

The Boss wrote:Manos, as regards the rope a dope has Dundee ever tried to peddle that story himself?

I dont think he did. He had actually asked for the ropes to be tightened when he had inspected the ring himself and had overseen the ropes being retightened earlier that day. However by the time the fight came around they had lossened up again.

In later years he said he was totally against Alis strategy and was worried he was going to fall out of the ring.

Thanks manos didn't know that at all!

The Boss wrote:Cheers Union. Never really listened while watching the fight. Windy, bit of self praise or why do you think hed bring it up?

I'd reckon it was just as you say, Boss. Dundee was profiling his own importance and it came back to bite him.

While we're with Ali, it's not so much a 'myth' as a misconception, but it's widely believed that he relinquished the title in 1967 when New York State took his licence, many others followed suit and he was convicted of draft evasion in Texas. Ali was officially still champion until February 1970, when he retired and vacated the title so that the bout between New York champ Joe Frazier and WBA champ Jimmy Ellis could be for the undisputed title.

So in the other 3 years was there no fights for that title?

Fragments of it, Boss.

The WBA tournament happened in 1968 and was won by Jimmy Ellis. Frazier, who had declined to enter as a protest in support of Ali, nonetheless took on Buster Mathis for the New York version, also in 1968.

However, the title remained fragmented and disputed until Ali officially retired and vacated in Feb. 1970, and Joe Frazier became undisputed champ by knocking out Ellis a couple of weeks later.

Cheers Windy. On a sidenote, there is one controversy that I'm quite happy to back up in that Hagler beat SRL. Just interested in knowing if there is any change of opinion in that fight over the years if anyones able to tell me?

You're welcome, Boss.

Thank you for an interesting thread which is a welcome relief from the Chisora stuff. ( No disrespect intended to any who might have written those threads, by the way. It was THE topic of the moment, which I perfectly understand. )

No bother. Been meaning to get on for a while and post a topic but I'm snowed under with the dissertation so decided to take a break for a few hours here.

Well, that's our gain.

Best of luck with your dissertation.

Good luck with the dissertation mate

Cheers lads! Appreciate it!

The myth that Greb actually existed - greatest boxing conspiracy of all time

I'd forgotten that one, Jonesy.

Nice one, mate.

We must remember to remain balanced, eh Windmill

alma wrote:The myth that the alphabets have only been around the last few years

Agree they even made a Scooby-Doo one late 80s AND a Transformers one.

The myth that Lewis was definitely going to lose against Klitschko if it hadn't been stopped on a cut, it was anybody's fight after round 6 ,Lewis was starting to catch him with some big shots.

Difficult one Nico. I have been of the impression Vit would have won it had the cut not happened. I've always thought that the cut spurred Lennox on and that was the reason he won the last two rounds, because he was putting everything into stopping him soon on the cuts. Tough to say who would have won though.

No1Jonesy wrote:We must remember to remain balanced, eh Windmill

So we must, Jonesy.

I dont think the Lewis/Vitali fight is a myth. Most people are split or undecided on what would have happened.

To win on points Lewis would have had to win 5 out of the next 6 rounds though so without the cut it was advantage Vitali.

Totally agree with you Alex, 50/50 fight had the fight gone on, I've seen some bad cuts in boxing but this one must be near the top horrific.

Lewis when questioned about the fight alway's say's he was starting to get to Vitali and Vitali wasn't throwing a lot back at the end.

Apparently Willie Pep and Sugar Ray Robinson had an underground unlisensced boxing match...

Barrera was drugged up in the naz fight - heard the rumour prefight - though it was cowpat then and is still cowpat now - no ones come forward with any proof apart from a really wet fart which may have been edited on to the video.