Murray Says Fast Courts Suit Federer

First topic message reminder :

This is what Murray said after losing to Federer in the Dubai final on Saturday.

"If there was more tournaments on these courts, I think he could definitely be No. 1 in the world for the next few years," Murray told reporters. "It really suits his game well. Just so many of the courts are so slow now. It’s nice for us to get a change-up like here. Some of the tournaments are so slow it's tough against so many guys that are moving well and serving big. It’s become tougher and tougher to stay at the top of the game longer."

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16761&zoneid=25

I can imagine that many will see this comment and see it as Murray giving respect to Federer. Maybe some will even say he's giving too much respect to Federer. I can imagine a few using it as some sort of evidence to prove that the slowing down of the courts has somehow cheated Federer out of his rightful place at the top of the rankings.

I don't see it that way at all. To me it sounds like Murray is being his usual arrogant self and with this back handed compliment to Federer is "explaining" why he didn't win on Saturday. Also he's implying that Federer won't be so good later in the year. Huh! There is no love lost between these two.

Was Murray's comment a complement or a criticism of Federer?

noleisthebest wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:The best thing that tennis has done is come away from the 'eliteism' mindset that had plagued it during the amateur era and early into the Open Era.

I can't say really cause I have not known it but my grandparents had great memories of tennis from teh musketeers. It think it was great then as well. It's just different now.

Borg had a massive following of female fans and Agassi did to, all before Nadal ever did. Yes to some it is frustrating that hear female fans drool over player appearances, but if we argue that out of 10 female fans that follow tennis because of the 'talent' on display and say 3 out of the 10 actually develop a much deeper interest in the game and span out their interest beyond eye candy, then that is a good thing for the sport.

I don;t mind having the whole planet looking at tennis because a player is good looking. It's actually good for the game. What is wrong and we have made it clear it's to change the rules and conds to favour one popular player at teh expense of others. It takes the sport closer to a show than a real sport. That is the down side of having lots of fans who don't really understand the effort of a SHBH down the line and a bashing of the ball from 3m behind the baseline. Especially at a time where "physique and power" can be so easily acquired.

legendkillar wrote:What I don't want to see is suited up ponces drinking Champagne, eating Strawberries, polishing their monocles who are there to be with an elite and not have a clue about the game of tennis!

I don't mind those either. As you say it's for everybody, but let's not change the conds to favour one player. When they changed the conds in the 90s, it was to make it more of a spectacle but I do not remember the purpose was to facilitate the game for a star player....unless they already tried to slow it down to Agassi but I doubt as he had already won Wimby in quick conds.

I agree with what you say in principle Tenez. I would like variety. I would like to see different champions at Slam and Master events. Different surfaces to give different response to speed and trajectory to players groundstrokes. I do hope that events will start to listen to players and fans and get changes introduced immediately.

I don't wan to see different champions at slams. I want Nole to win them all.

Variety is irrelevant. That's the tennis tournaments directors' problem.

Obviously, different surfaces play differently, and although they have merged closer, they are not all the same.

A real tennis master can and will win on any surface.

That is just plain greedy!!

legendkillar wrote:
That is just plain greedy!!

It has the benefit to be clear, frank and honest.

We could question the fact that surfaces are different enough to allow different styles to win...but I think Nole knows the answer to that.

Dubai was fast. 7 out of 8 seeds made the q/f's with only Fish (who said he likes fast courts missing out). Top 3 seeds made the semis along with Del Potro who most people on this forum would agree is the player most likely to get close to top 4 if not into it in the immediate future. So I am still trying to understand what difference it made. Shorter rallies yes but no real difference in the outcome of matches.

NITB, I admire Federer's ability, always have. But I've never cared for the guy - so I'm not a 'complete' fan of his. Yes the guy has amazing talent...but tennis does not revolve around him, he is not bigger than the game, and there are other worthy players to watch. You yourself clearly prefer Nole overall to Federer, and there are people who prefer Nadal to Federer. I dont see Nole getting endlessly attacked on here, so I dont see why there is a need for relentless debasing of Nadal and his fans.

Also, there is no proof that tournaments are being changed for one player, i.e. Nadal. This is just more outpouring of hate for the guy. Indeed if Federer is more popular than Nadal still why arent they speeding up the courts for him if this is what tournaments do. The answer is the public generally enjoy longer ralley tennis than the 1-2 or 3-4 stroke tennis of the 90s - not just because of Nadal but because most tennis players play a ralley-based game since the early 00s. But they have gone too far...not because of Nadal, but because they believe its what the public want...more of the same. But they wont...and neither will TV companies. But for this forum to continually blame one player for the way tennis has gone is ridiculous.

We all want variety on this forum...not 4 slams with the same speed and bounce index. We differ in the view points and reasons for how tennis has got to this point where there is much homogeniety. However, the modus operandi of the ATP/ITF tours is not to create difference. After all the game comes from origins of similarity...grass, then clay. Up to 1975, 3 out of 4 slams were on grass (ok on different continents but grass all the same). The difference in surfaces has only really come about since the late 80s, and now its narrowed again. Its a balance of difference vs. giving the players less variation that will unsettle their games too much...ATP/TDs want the big names getting to the finals each week so less difference = better chance of same guys always getting through. Its not about speed per se, just about wanting similar conditions presently...the ATP tour has become risk averse...but in the process is killing what made the game great to start with...that a wide variety of guys won events during the year...now its narrowing all the time...BUT - its not Nadal's fault!

Tenez wrote: YOu see you accuse some of being "knowers" (or pretending to be) but you come with your own little fabricated science to try to impress even more than the "knowers". It's comical if you ask me. I am not going to discuss memory muscles here. It's not going to lead us anywhere. Let's call it timing, reflexes and eye/hand coordination. Everybody understands that and they are the essential ingredients to talent. In short the pace and dosage of stimuli travelling the nerve cells.

Fabricated science? lol...no its all based on fact Tenez.
Why dont you look up clinical papers on peak reflex speed vs age, and also how reaction time is not directly proportional to reflex time.
Of course all these things are linked to talent, but then so are many other things...the question is what are the priority factors. But greater innate speed of average nervous conduction cannot be attributed to Federer...you could never prove that. The reason why he and the others achieve better results either on fast or slow courts is rather more complex than the simplistic, righteous focus you're applying here.

[quote="raiders_of_the_lost_ark]Nothing is anti-Nadal here. If its anti tennis it will be brought up in discussions. If it happens to be also anti-nadal, then so be it. It wouldn't have mattered if the player was Nadal or Federer or someone ranked 786. No player is above tennis for me.

Why don't you answer my questions 1. and 2. in the my reply to CC? [/quote]

Nothing is anti-Nadal? Are you having a laugh? So when NITB says "Nadal is the death of tennis" this isnt anti-Nadal. Nor the recent banned PED thread about him? Or that the reason tennis is slowed down and is due to him alone...I think you're being somewhat altruistic and disingenuous. People love to slate the guy on here, then seem to deny doing so when challenged on it.

Your two questions?
1. Nadal's posters are few on every tennis forum, not just 606v2. There are plenty on facebook and his fan sites. Why is this so? There are plenty of Nadal fans on other forums, where is your evidence there isnt? There are quite alot on MTL, and for example Tennis Warehouse. But what has the number of forum members got to do with it anyway? Are you only a true fan of tennis in your mind if you post on a forum? Are you only a true fan if you know the last 30 winners of Wimbledon? Are you only a true fan if you're a forum-posting fan of Federer?

2. Show me where its well-documented why Nadal fans left this 606v2 forum? who are the many of the Nadal fans that left this forum. I belive this forum never had many Nadal fans to begin with. Like I said most nadal fans are casual watcher of tennis. They will never have the time or energy to keep discussing lines and lines of text about tennis. They rather post a "good luck Rafa", "I love you rafa", "rafa, you are the best" on his facebook page than wasting time on talking about his game on 606v2.
Those of us who have been here a while saw what happened. Their own forum space was denigrated by a few Federer fans on here who also joined early. They chose to leave. Whether or not they posted about the merits of Nadal western grip or not doesnt matter. So what if some of them were casual watchers? I'm sure there are many many casual watchers of Federer. But there were at least 3-4 knowledgeable Nadal fans, inc. "Tom____" who left shortly afterwards. Anyone on here who identified themselves as a Nadal fan has always come in for a huge amount of stick - knowledgeable or not.

In the absence of an official database I’d certainly go with the theory that the vast majority of Rafa’s followers are female - although we’ve yet to see any repeat of the Beatlemania type screaming which often accompanied Bjorn Borg's movement around the grounds of SW19, heady days indeed

legendkiller : I agree with most of what you say, but your perfectly valid point that “it takes all sorts” is weakened somewhat when - after saying that you’re happy to see people get involved in the tennis scene purely because they might be attracted by certain players looks, or purely because of national affiliations - you then show a sense of contempt for people who might be seen at a tourney enjoying a glass of champers or strawberries, all whilst (heaven forbid ) wearing a suit.

Falling into this latter category and being a ‘proper’ tennis fan are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Personally I reckon I’m about as far removed as it’s possible to be from the stereotypical image of a ‘ponce’ but I do have a long-held interest in tennis and, I would like to think, a fair though not expert understanding of the game too.

Some years ago, on the basis of a strong business relationship with Hertz, I was very glad when they invited me to Wimbledon as a guest. (Hertz provided all Wimbledon player courtesy transport at the time and perhaps still do ....(?)) There was mid-morning coffee/champagne and canapes on arrival at their hospitality marquee, followed by a full sit-down lunch, silver service and all. After lunch I was able to watch Centre Court matches right up to the end of the day’s play with a break for afternoon tea (with strawbs + cream of course) back at the marquee again, had I wanted.

There's always a lively debate to be had on the rights and wrongs of ‘elite’ hospitality facilities at sporting events, but I’m not sure how many fans can honestly say they would refuse it if offered.

As regards who might be deemed the ‘right sort’ of people to follow tennis, whether live, on tv and/or by contributing to a forum : Well, in my view the most important qualification is not technical knowledge, understanding, or some desire to swoon over Rafa’s muscles, but simply the ability to show basic respect and courtesy towards other fans, as well as the players themselves - whether a favourite or not

Anyway, must dash, gotta go and find my monocle.....

lydian wrote:Nothing is anti-Nadal? Are you having a laugh? So when NITB says "Nadal is the death of tennis" this isnt anti-Nadal. Nor the recent banned PED thread about him? Or that the reason tennis is slowed down and is due to him alone...I think you're being somewhat altruistic and disingenuous. People love to slate the guy on here, then seem to deny doing so when challenged on it.

I said if its anti-tennis the it will be discussed. If that also happens to be anti-nadal ( and then Nadal in turn being anti-tennis ), then so be it. If nitb thinks that Nadal is the death of tennis, she can have her opinion, she can have her reasons. why didn't you challenge her with your counter reasoning. You want to dismiss them by calling them anti-nadal. Well, I don't mind being anti-nadal tbh. I once used to like him ( 2004,05 maybe even 06 a bit ). But not any more.

lydian wrote: Your two questions?
1. Nadal's posters are few on every tennis forum, not just 606v2. There are plenty on facebook and his fan sites. Why is this so? There are plenty of Nadal fans on other forums, where is your evidence there isnt? There are quite alot on MTL, and for example Tennis Warehouse. But what has the number of forum members got to do with it anyway? Are you only a true fan of tennis in your mind if you post on a forum? Are you only a true fan if you know the last 30 winners of Wimbledon? Are you only a true fan if you're a forum-posting fan of Federer?

I can ask you just as well where is your evidence that there are plenty of Nadal fans on other tennis forums (not fan-sites). There are only a handful on MTL and tennis warehouse. Just because you said so? If that be then my saying stands just as good. 606v2 and old 606 : the most popular tennis forums for years and attract people from all countries. Its impossible that its fan-base be so different from other tennis discussion forums. If it has few nadal fans, then its very highly possible that it will have to be also on every popular tennis forum.

I'm not saying a tennis fan is only when he/she posts on a forum. But if there are people who care to post and discuss tennis on a website with lines and lines of text, they certainly are passionate than people just 'like' their favorite player on facebook. So among such people how is it possible that nadal fans are so few of those when people following them ( Fed and Nadal ) are almost same in number on facebook and their respective fan sites. It only mean that most people who are passionate about tennis to care to give time and energy to discuss tennis, are not Nadal fans. This is what was my initial point. They are mostly casual watchers of tennis. They just don't take time and energy to discuss tennis. And hence accusations of many nadal fans being made to leave by anti-Nadal fed-fans on 606v2 is wrong.

lydian wrote: 2. Show me where its well-documented why Nadal fans left this 606v2 forum? who are the many of the Nadal fans that left this forum. I belive this forum never had many Nadal fans to begin with. Like I said most nadal fans are casual watcher of tennis. They will never have the time or energy to keep discussing lines and lines of text about tennis. They rather post a "good luck Rafa", "I love you rafa", "rafa, you are the best" on his facebook page than wasting time on talking about his game on 606v2.
Those of us who have been here a while saw what happened. Their own forum space was denigrated by a few Federer fans on here who also joined early. They chose to leave. Whether or not they posted about the merits of Nadal western grip or not doesnt matter. So what if some of them were casual watchers? I'm sure there are many many casual watchers of Federer. But there were at least 3-4 knowledgeable Nadal fans, inc. "Tom____" who left shortly afterwards. Anyone on here who identified themselves as a Nadal fan has always come in for a huge amount of stick - knowledgeable or not.

Can you elaborate what happened? I have been on 606 and then on 606v2 for years now, but i don't see it. Your accusations need points. What do you mean by "Anyone on here who identified themselves as a Nadal fan has always come in for a huge amount of stick "? Do people just get abused for being a Nadal fan that they have no choice but to leave the forum? If you are going to be a Nadal fan, you have answer questions about him, his gamesmanship, his losses, his wins, what he says on or of court, his records, his playing style etc. If you find it hard to answer those and then leave, what can others do? Anyway who asked anyone to be a Nadal fan, it was your choice. If you such ardent fan that you can't take up reasoning against your player, I guess tennis forums are not for you. Better join some fan-site.

lags72 wrote:In the absence of an official database I’d certainly go with the theory that the vast majority of Rafa’s followers are female

And from experience also many men who do not quite like Federer and enjoy the beating Federer gets from Nadal.

Catalan Power, SA, Socal, Lydian etc...

I perfectly understand and do not criticise this position.

lydian wrote:Anyone on here who identified themselves as a Nadal fan has always come in for a huge amount of stick - knowledgeable or not.

There are many fans on either side of this 'dislike' wall. If every anti-<name-your-player-here> comment is considered a personal attack on the poster, then some intervention is possible, but in general, posters can sort it out themselves.

Posters who consider it is their 'duty' to be 'defenders' get more stick, sometimes, due to their 'sensitivity' to the issue/discussion.

Many experienced posters know when to walk away from a fight and cool down and come back with level heads.

This fight-vs-flight response is what makes discussions bitter or not. If they stayed as logical debates, progress could be made.

WUMming can be very subtle and is very subjective. Each poster needs to be wary of what they can and cannot handle. As some one on 606v2 commented, such discussions are not for the 'faint-hearted'.

laverfan wrote:

lydian wrote:Anyone on here who identified themselves as a Nadal fan has always come in for a huge amount of stick - knowledgeable or not.

There are many fans on either side of this 'dislike' wall. If every anti-<name-your-player-here> comment is considered a personal attack on the poster, then some intervention is possible, but in general, posters can sort it out themselves.

Posters who consider it is their 'duty' to be 'defenders' get more stick, sometimes, due to their 'sensitivity' to the issue/discussion.

Many experienced posters know when to walk away from a fight and cool down and come back with level heads.

This fight-vs-flight response is what makes discussions bitter or not. If they stayed as logical debates, progress could be made.

WUMming can be very subtle and is very subjective. Each poster needs to be wary of what they can and cannot handle. As some one on 606v2 commented, such discussions are not for the 'faint-hearted'.

While I agree with the sentiments, some posters find it difficult to summarise something impossible with something even more impossible. I find with some posters that their favourite subjects are to with the more negative viewpoint of the game much rather than the positives.

Raiders, thanks for your points but I'm not elaborating on the points I made. I'm more than happy to discuss the ins and outs of Nadal's game and have often in the past been the only one here doing so to counter those points you make. But to be honest its boring, really boring when the discussions are the same old thing around and around again. I get that you, Tenez and others cant stand Nadal...I really do! lol

LF, fair enough points, tribalism is usually alive and kicking on most forums. This forum seems particularly tribal at times.

Tenez, you say "enjoy the beating Federer gets from Nadal"...and lump me in with Catalan and SA which I know is designed to get a rise in itself but can point me to where I've shown that delight? Otherwise you're just making false accusations. I dont care for Federer much, but I dont extract childish enjoyment from him losing to Nadal, and have praised Fed wins in the past even. Its time to move on from the fan stereotypes...and the Nadal/Federer discussions...arent you bored of them? I know I am.

lydian wrote:
LF, fair enough points, tribalism is usually alive and kicking on most forums. This forum seems particularly tribal at times.

That's (also) not true at all actually. One thing I like about this forum is that most members are actually mature and independant enough to share views without the need to belong to a group or a circle. ...Unlike those who felt they needed to leave in "block" cause they felt unwelcome.

And this is actually what, imo, attracts more mature posters in turn.

SO no, I don't think this forum is tribal at all. You must be mistaking.

lol Tenez...the paragon of neutrality!

What has neutrality and tribalism got in common?

Besides I do believe I am extremely neutral on my observations.

Who is more neutral do you think?

The one who believes Nadal's extra time taking is a bad habit or the one who thinks it is to recover extra breathing time?

Ask professionals and Nadal fans alike and see which goup comes with which answer, then see who is more likely to have neutral answers.

Tenez wrote:

The one who believes Nadal's extra time taking is a bad habit or the one who thinks it is to recover extra breathing time?

Do you see any difference between this comment and someone quoting Fedal h2h, or someone talking about Ljubicic being ATP #3 or Blake being #4?

All three are, to use someone else's terminology, 'irrefutable'.

You are not clear again LF. Write your mind.

noleisthebest wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I won't go into detail about what happened to the large amount of Nadal posters who posted here at one time as it is well-documented and yes I do read socal's posts as at least he has the courtesy of given each player credit where it is due even if that player is a direct rival to his own favourite. Socal did labour long and hard about the drabness of Dubai in terms of exciting matches and that is a valid point but I personally think that wasntvmuch to do with court speed but just the way things panned out as I have watched tournements on slower courts that have been short of exciting matches. However, social did also say he welcomed court speed variety as well. Hunt around and you will find the posts.

I don't know what happened to them They all left while I was "away" for quite a bit. I was "away" because those same Nadal fans were complaining about me having about 10 of these after I wrote an article about Nole's win over Nadal in Madrid.

Then somebody (assume it was mods at the time) removed all the smileys and told me to tone down. I was astounded, felt like a cold shower....and for what?

So I have no idea why they left, but didn't miss them on my return which had nothing to do with them being either here or not.
I was so happy because that was a monumental win for Nole.

noleisthebest. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe your for real. Admit it you don't really think noleisthebest you are just playing some sort of game trying to get a reaction?

What I find funny is Tenez's belief in his own neutrality and impartiality. This is the same guy who claims Nadal is a top 100 player with big lungs. The same person who actually criticized Nadal for having the benefits of cutting age knee surgery. Tenez your confidence in your own impartiality is the highlight of my visit to this site today. Got to love Tenez, hey emperor your wang chung is hanging out, u got no clothes!

I actually don't enjoy Roger getting beat by Nadal, I have in some of their matches rooted for Nadal and some for federer. As being a fan of neither player it depends on the day with me. I will say this I would be happy for anyone to unseat Fed as goat. Not so much because I dislike fed I don't, but would love to see the reaction of his online fans and their verbal gymnastics then.

I remember when the Nadal fans were here Tenez chased them off. They were nice to me but they were a bit oversensitive to criticism of Nadal. And one of them in particular turned nasty real quick. Nitb had some run ins with them early last year and I could see how some of that left a bad taste in her mouth because she really didn't do anything wrong and the Rafa fans were just emotional justifiably watching Nole put Rafa to the sword over and over again.

I like Fed and Nadal, but both in passing. Although I greatly respect their accomplishments and I think I give both their due.

This Socal/Tenez rivalry is sending 606 - Tennis into an apocalypse, referee needs to sinbin these two...

socal1976 wrote:I remember when the Nadal fans were here Tenez chased them off.

Pleased to learn I single handedly kicked Rafanatics out...without even trying!

It's easy to check all the posts I made and yet cannot see how I did it but hey... If you can point out my post(s) that made them flee...I am curious.

lydian wrote:NITB, I admire Federer's ability, always have. But I've never cared for the guy - so I'm not a 'complete' fan of his. Yes the guy has amazing talent...but tennis does not revolve around him, he is not bigger than the game, and there are other worthy players to watch. You yourself clearly prefer Nole overall to Federer, and there are people who prefer Nadal to Federer. I dont see Nole getting endlessly attacked on here, so I dont see why there is a need for relentless debasing of Nadal and his fans.

Also, there is no proof that tournaments are being changed for one player, i.e. Nadal. This is just more outpouring of hate for the guy. Indeed if Federer is more popular than Nadal still why arent they speeding up the courts for him if this is what tournaments do. The answer is the public generally enjoy longer ralley tennis than the 1-2 or 3-4 stroke tennis of the 90s - not just because of Nadal but because most tennis players play a ralley-based game since the early 00s. But they have gone too far...not because of Nadal, but because they believe its what the public want...more of the same. But they wont...and neither will TV companies. But for this forum to continually blame one player for the way tennis has gone is ridiculous.

I can't answer your questions regarding Federer, I'll leave them to resident experts

In regards to my dislike of Nadal's tennis, I posted a lengthy reply to Socal's question I think somewhere on this thread. If you are interested, you can have a look, if you cant find it, let me know and I'll try to dig it out.

After all it's only tennis, and I don't tend to let others ruin one of the nicest things I like to fill my spare time with. People will always like somebody else, because tastes are so different.
Personally, I don't know why anybody buys any of today's "music", but a lot of people disagree. Same with tennis.
I'm used to Nole being on the sidelines, and not liked as much as Federer, but that doesn't bother me in the least.
At the end of the day it's me who enjoys watching him and what do I care what the rest of the world thinks

Here, there are a lot of good tennis fans, passionate, knowledgeable, and although I don't always agree with them, I enjoy their company and views.

You are the only reasonable Nadal fan here, the others are way too thin-skinned and take everything personally.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again, please write an article about Nadal and why you like him.

For some reason, it's easier for Nadal fans (the other two to write about anybody else but the player the support, it genuinely baffles me .

hawkeye wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I won't go into detail about what happened to the large amount of Nadal posters who posted here at one time as it is well-documented and yes I do read socal's posts as at least he has the courtesy of given each player credit where it is due even if that player is a direct rival to his own favourite. Socal did labour long and hard about the drabness of Dubai in terms of exciting matches and that is a valid point but I personally think that wasntvmuch to do with court speed but just the way things panned out as I have watched tournements on slower courts that have been short of exciting matches. However, social did also say he welcomed court speed variety as well. Hunt around and you will find the posts.

I don't know what happened to them They all left while I was "away" for quite a bit. I was "away" because those same Nadal fans were complaining about me having about 10 of these after I wrote an article about Nole's win over Nadal in Madrid.

Then somebody (assume it was mods at the time) removed all the smileys and told me to tone down. I was astounded, felt like a cold shower....and for what?

So I have no idea why they left, but didn't miss them on my return which had nothing to do with them being either here or not.
I was so happy because that was a monumental win for Nole.

noleisthebest. I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe your for real. Admit it you don't really think noleisthebest you are just playing some sort of game trying to get a reaction?

You are almost endearing with comments like this

Tenez wrote:You are not clear again LF. Write your mind.

1. Poster T states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Rafa takes more than 20 seconds...'

2. Poster A states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Federer vs Nadal h2h is 9-18'.

3. Poster A states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Federer won all his slams during Ljubicic and Blake being #3 and #4'.

4. Poster B states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Nadal cheats'.

5. Poster S states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Swiss shanker'.

These statements and/or arguments are pretty stale and do not add anything to any debate, do they?

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I remember when the Nadal fans were here Tenez chased them off.

Pleased to learn I single handedly kicked Rafanatics out...without even trying!

It's easy to check all the posts I made and yet cannot see how I did it but hey... If you can point out my post(s) that made them flee...I am curious.

Tenez I remember your first day on this site, and back then they had their Rafafateers section all to themselves. They continually talked about your arrival and how it would probably result them to go to a Rafa fan site and abandon us. But they took down that section and I don't know what they did with the Rafateers threads.

They would even mention you by name, it was pretty funny they would say "you know who is posting now". It was like you were damian or son of beelzebub or something. I found it most humorous the mental anguish you caused those nice middle aged ladies who just liked their long haired spanish heart throb.

Anyway, ur not all that bad, i think they took things to heart too much. But after a couple of weeks they all left and went to some Rafa fan only site.

socal1976 wrote:

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I remember when the Nadal fans were here Tenez chased them off.

Pleased to learn I single handedly kicked Rafanatics out...without even trying!

It's easy to check all the posts I made and yet cannot see how I did it but hey... If you can point out my post(s) that made them flee...I am curious.

Tenez I remember your first day on this site, and back then they had their Rafafateers section all to themselves. They continually talked about your arrival and how it would probably result them to go to a Rafa fan site and abandon us. But they took down that section and I don't know what they did with the Rafateers threads.

They would even mention you by name, it was pretty funny they would say "you know who is posting now". It was like you were damian or son of beelzebub or something. I found it most humorous the mental anguish you caused those nice middle aged ladies who just liked their long haired spanish heart throb.

Anyway, ur not all that bad, i think they took things to heart too much. But after a couple of weeks they all left and went to some Rafa fan only site.

Socal, to understand the depth of their anguish and agony you need to see the website they all converge (founded and run by one of those members) , if you google Rafa and one of the most promient "departed" members name, you'll be able to understand

YI Man banned us from mentioning the sacred website name, sorry

noleisthebest wrote: You are the only reasonable Nadal fan here.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again, please write an article about Nadal and why you like him.

Why thank you NITB
I am pretty reasonable, lol - aside from the usual run-ins with Tenez but we;ve been arguing for years across 606/606v2.
In some respects I probably appear as a dichotomy in that I liked the game of Sampras (ruthless efficiency) and Nadal (often and admittedly grinding out - or working out - wins). Another anomaly is that I have played competitive tennis when I was younger to a high level including events in Spain (which I need not go into) and my style was/is more akin to Sampras than Nadal - I have a SHBH and flatish serve, etc. But there are alot of characteristics I like in Nadal's game from a mental perspective, and some physical aspects also. Someday I might write that article but I know it will only attract vitriol, rancour and denouncing of my knowledge, etc, given the way this site has been to date. But I thank you for appealing to me to say why I am a fan - albeit a mild one in reality. Indeed I was really a much bigger Agassi, Kafelnikov (yeah I know...), Enqvist (I tried to copy his FH when I was younger which wasnt a good thing to try!) and Sampras fan - and all those had different styles!
I'm also a mild fan of Djokovic believe it or not...have liked the guy since he came on tour...just not too keen on his family, lol.

lydian wrote:Someday I might write that article but I know it will only attract vitriol, rancour...

You might get called a complete rancour! Ah, the old ones are the best! Sorry.

Yeah, Nitb I wouldn't mind checking it out and seeing what the Rafateers are up to. Tenez sent shockwaves through their tight knit little clique and they just couldn't stomach anyone saying anything bad about Nadal. In short they took things a little too seriously.

Yes Social to an extent I agree with you. I believe that if you see something you don't agree with you should just respond to it rather than quitting the forum.

I have talked to some of the Rafa fans myself and they told me that they tried this for a while, but after constant attacks from Tenez they got into a position where it was simply intolerable and it was not worth staying on the forum.

laverfan wrote:

Tenez wrote:You are not clear again LF. Write your mind.

1. Poster T states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Rafa takes more than 20 seconds...'

2. Poster A states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Federer vs Nadal h2h is 9-18'.

3. Poster A states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Federer won all his slams during Ljubicic and Blake being #3 and #4'.

4. Poster B states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Nadal cheats'.

5. Poster S states, ad infinitum ad nauseam - 'Swiss shanker'.

These statements and/or arguments are pretty stale and do not add anything to any debate, do they?

I am afraid you did not get the point. It's not about Nadal taking 30 seconds nor H2H. If you wish to intervene between Lydian and me, at least try to understand what we are discussing.

socal1976 wrote:Anyway, ur not all that bad, i think they took things to heart too much. But after a couple of weeks they all left and went to some Rafa fan only site.

As mentioned by others some of those rafafans were actually pretty agressive. Look at the very early threads' title, it was all about Rafa and was pretty boring, but more importantly it was a struggle to have a proper discussion. This forum took off cause some started to discuss about tennis.

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Anyway, ur not all that bad, i think they took things to heart too much. But after a couple of weeks they all left and went to some Rafa fan only site.

As mentioned by others some of those rafafans were actually pretty agressive. Look at the very early threads' title, it was all about Rafa and was pretty boring, but more importantly it was a struggle to have a proper discussion. This forum took off cause some started to discuss about tennis.

Very true. It's come a long way since ghost-town days....

Tenez wrote:
I am afraid you did not get the point. It's not about Nadal taking 30 seconds nor H2H. If you wish to intervene between Lydian and me, at least try to understand what we are discussing.

I am not trying to intervene, but a Fedal debate is so passe, that there is no real Tennis discussion. Both of you are free to discuss subjects as you see fit.

Prostaff85's IW thread seems to be related to the current Tennis activity, though. Nadal's 'prettiness' is another interesting non-Tennis discussion till IW gets past the current R1 matches.

laverfan wrote:

Tenez wrote:
I am afraid you did not get the point. It's not about Nadal taking 30 seconds nor H2H. If you wish to intervene between Lydian and me, at least try to understand what we are discussing.

I am not trying to intervene, but a Fedal debate is so passe, that there is no real Tennis discussion. Both of you are free to discuss subjects as you see fit.

Prostaff85's IW thread seems to be related to the current Tennis activity, though. Nadal's 'prettiness' is another interesting non-Tennis discussion till IW gets past the current R1 matches.

Either that or Pretty Rafa/PM's big get-together

Tenez wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Anyway, ur not all that bad, i think they took things to heart too much. But after a couple of weeks they all left and went to some Rafa fan only site.

As mentioned by others some of those rafafans were actually pretty agressive. Look at the very early threads' title, it was all about Rafa and was pretty boring, but more importantly it was a struggle to have a proper discussion. This forum took off cause some started to discuss about tennis.

Tenez. You could discuss about tennis too you know. Instead of just telling everyone why you don't like Nadal. I think we all know that now...

This article was about what Murray meant when he said fast courts suit Federer. It goes on for about four pages and yet I'm not sure you've contributed to this topic. I've just learnt more (if that were possible?) about why you don't like Nadal... Imagine how you would feel if you wrote an article about Federer and (for example) noleisthebest diverted the topic to say how nolehasthebestlegs...

laverfan wrote:

Tenez wrote:
I am afraid you did not get the point. It's not about Nadal taking 30 seconds nor H2H. If you wish to intervene between Lydian and me, at least try to understand what we are discussing.

I am not trying to intervene, but a Fedal debate is so passe, that there is no real Tennis discussion. Both of you are free to discuss subjects as you see fit.

Prostaff85's IW thread seems to be related to the current Tennis activity, though. Nadal's 'prettiness' is another interesting non-Tennis discussion till IW gets past the current R1 matches.

We were not discussing about Fed and Nadal!

hawkeye wrote:
Tenez. You could discuss about tennis too you know. Instead of just telling everyone why you don't like Nadal. I think we all know that now...
...

What do you mean? I believe I was amongst the first posters with NITB and others who took this forum beyond the Nadal discussions. I even posted about Enrique and Anna today.....what else do you want?

Funny coming from you, the Murray obsessed poster!

Tenez wrote:

hawkeye wrote:
Tenez. You could discuss about tennis too you know. Instead of just telling everyone why you don't like Nadal. I think we all know that now...
...

What do you mean? I believe I was amongst the first posters with NITB and others who took this forum beyond the Nadal discussions. I even posted about Enrique and Anna today.....what else do you want?

Funny coming from you, the Murray obsessed poster!

What you and your buddy noleisthebest (who in reality have few views in common apart from your obsesive dislike of Nadal) have together brought more rounded and unbiased discussions to 606v2? Really?

hawkeye wrote:

Tenez wrote:

hawkeye wrote:
Tenez. You could discuss about tennis too you know. Instead of just telling everyone why you don't like Nadal. I think we all know that now...
...

What do you mean? I believe I was amongst the first posters with NITB and others who took this forum beyond the Nadal discussions. I even posted about Enrique and Anna today.....what else do you want?

Funny coming from you, the Murray obsessed poster!

What you and your buddy noleisthebest (who in reality have few views in common apart from your obsesive dislike of Nadal) have together brought more rounded and unbiased discussions to 606v2? Really?

"Pretty Rafa" ! can't stop laughing all evening it makes a welcome break from him being so humble and a wonderful human being ...

Yes we have different views at times and are buddies! you jealous?

sigh... what's that thing that posters do on forums were they get two user names so they can back themselves in an argument?

hawkeye wrote:sigh... what's that thing that posters do on forums were they get two user names so they can back themselves in an argument?

Are you sure about what you are implying?

I would like to echo Calder's sentiments. For all the talk about how differnet this surface was (no doubt true), the top three seeds once again all made the semis. And in the remaining quarter, the quarterfinal was won by the same guy who would have won had it been played on clay. So what does it mean? Maybe the conditions were not as fast as is generally felt? Or maybe there are not enough players in the second tier who can utilize these conditions? Or maybe the top 4 players are just so good that nobody can touch them anywhere?

...and directly to the original topic of this thread: I am pretty sure Andy was not trying to say how they should speed up surfaces everywhere and how Roger should still be no 1.

1. I don't buy this 'chase off nadal fans' things. No one can chase off anyone unless they themselves decide to quit. Can anyone try chasing off amritia ? I bet he/she won't budge an inch.

2. My initial point itself was that most Nadal fans are casual watchers of tennis. They will not have the energy or time or inclination to keep talking and discussing and debating tennis with lines and lines of text. This is because they don't have good tennis knowledge to be able to talk about it nor they are interested to know about it. Some casual fans who join in, start to find it difficult to stay on the debate. They find it difficult to 'defend' their player and being sentimental about their player, they take it as personal attacks. And hence they leave blaming some other posters. Its far easy for them to post a "I love you Rafa", "Good Luck Rafa", "Rafa you are my hero" on his FB page than debating his tennis.

3. If they find it so hard to be a Nadal fan, who is to be blamed? No one forced them to be Nadal fan. It was their choice. Why do they feel the need to 'defend' him? Why do Rafa fans try to bring out weak-era theories and degrading other players? If they do this, and then face the stick, who is to be blamed?

4. Just talk tennis and don't take it as personal attacks. Some thick skin helps on internet forums.

5. Fed and Nadal both are highly popular players. Both have almost similar fan following on FB. Their fan base are similar on their websites and other fan-sites. Yet on all popular tennis discussion forums Nadal fans are always only a handful. 606 has posts complaining about Nadal fans being few. Now its 606v2. No one chase them off, they just never belonged in a debate/discussion. FB is good for them.

6. It just happens out to be that most of those kind of people are women. Most Nadal fans at my work and club are also women. They are all his fans on FB, but no one has even heard about 606v2. No one discusses any tennis on any discussion forums. They don't have any interest in these things. So if Nadal fans don't want to join in discussion forums, what can others do? Why bring out baseless accusations that Nadal fans left or were chased off?

What baseless accusations? They told me themselves they left. If they were still here the numbers would be balanced.
And I'm a Nadal fan. I'm a guy. I debate, do I not? You might disagree with my points but you can't accuse me of not getting involved.
And on other forums there is a much better balance of fans, on TW for example there at probably marginally more Nadal fans.


'Why do Rafa fans try to bring out weak-era theories and degrading other players? If they do this, and then face the stick, who is to be blamed?'
Please don't put me in the same boat as UE etc from 606v1. They use it as evidence to degrade federer and say hes not a good player. I fundamentally disagree with that although I do believe nadal and Djokovic deserve credit for
making life harder for federer.
And you say people deserve stick for degrading other players. As far as I am aware there is no poster in the forum currenty (SA has left) that bash federer. I personally think he is a great player. Anyway does this 'denigrate' only apply one way, what about people like you? You spend half your time bashing Nadal, and the other half verbally abusing posters (you accused social of habit a peanut sized brain and have generally been very aggressive.) Do you not deserve any 'stick' by your logic or should federer fans be allowed to so what they want (as long as they bashing Nadal).
Complete hypocrisy by you

amritia3ee wrote:What baseless accusations? They told me themselves they left because of Tenez constantly attacking Nadal. If they were still here the numbers would be balanced.

Do you understand what is the meaning of a baseless accusation? You surely don't. Firstly there is no way other than to believe you than some Nadal fans actually told you that they left because of constant attacks from Tenez. Secondly and more importantly, lets assumes they did say, but just because of their saying Tenez doesn't becomes guilty of attacks on posters to chase them off. Even I can write that I have spoken to many Lubicic, Bagdatis fans and they all left 606v2 because of constant attacks on them by you and socal and other weak-era theorists. Why the balance has to be only between Nadal and Federer fans? What about fans of other players? Do you get the right to attack and chase them off just because they are fans of Bagdatis and Lubicic?

I already told you most Nadal fans don't belong in a tennis forum. FB, fan-sites are places for them. Stats on the FB page is proof of it. For being in a discussion/debate on tennis forums they need to have knowledge of tennis. They need to understand finer points of the game. Their saying that "NADAL is the best ever because I love him" won't be taken on tennis forums. If Nadal fans can't think of anything beyond posting "I love you Rafa", "you are the best ever", then what can I do. And this is the kind of reasoning they bring into discussions on 606v2, and then proved wrong, they take it personally and then leave the forum muttering "Tenez attacked me constantly".

No debate forums are for the weak hearted or the weak minded. FB is already for that. Go there and post the "I love you Rafa" things. Or even if you don't understand tennis much, but have the relentless energy ( like yourself ) you can still enjoy tennis forums.

amritia3ee wrote: And I'm a Nadal fan. I'm a guy. I debate, do I not? You might disagree with my points but you can't accuse me of not getting involved.

I agree you get involved, but I don't agree that you debate.

amritia3ee wrote:And on other forums there is a much better balance of fans, on TW for example there at probably marginally more Nadal fans.

Even on "606v3" there are probably more Lubicic fans.

amritia3ee wrote:
Please don't put me in the same boat as UE etc from 606v1. They use it as evidence to degrade federer and say hes not a good player. I fundamentally disagree with that although I do believe nadal and Djokovic deserve credit for making life harder for federer.

I'm not putting you in any boat. But you yourself wish to enter UE's boat what can I do?

amritia3ee wrote: And you say people deserve stick for degrading other players. As far as I am aware there is no poster in the forum currenty (SA has left) that bash federer.

This is your narrow minded view and you assume I think like that too. Do you think I and some other only have problem because some posters bash Federer? For you everything in tennis revolves around Nadal, its not the same for me ( and some others I believe ). I'll not be fine if you bash Lubicic, bagdatis, Nalbandian, Coria or any other player. My mind is not just stuck on one player.

amritia3ee wrote: what about people like you? You spend half your time bashing Nadal, and the other half verbally abusing posters (you accused social of habit a peanut sized brain and have generally been very aggressive.) Do you not deserve any 'stick' by your logic or should federer fans be allowed to so what they want (as long as they bashing Nadal).

What do you mean by bashing Nadal? Kindly elaborate. Then we can talk about who is bashing Nadal.


I apologized to socal for the baby pea comment already. But I was pushed to that limit. Even after that apology Socal continued to label posters, call comments of posters as laughable and continued to mock Tenez. If his behavior is going be the same, I'll have to do what I don't want to do.