Mouritz Botha : why can't I be content that he's playing for England?

First topic message reminder :

He's been in England for six years according to his Wiki account http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouritz_Botha.

But I can't accept that he has any right to be donning the white jersey. I should but I can't.

So far has I can see Botha has no connection with England.

And it's not as though he had to do a Kevin Pietersen in cricket to get a chance to play.

His Sarries club-mate Bradley Barritt at least has full parental qualifications - but Mourtiz is so far as I can see is an opportunist. Plain and simple.

Have been doing some research and from what i can gather the Welsh and the Cornish are descendants of Narnia.

Which explains why all the women have hairy legs.

biltongbek wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also...If we are really opening up the debate....
What is SA?
Dutch and all sorts?

Geez mate, we are from the whole of europe, if we tried hard enough we would all be able to get some european passport if we were allowed to trace past our great, great, great, great grand parents.

Ah yes...i stand corrected...very diverse european settlers...but thats my point...what nation is uniquely from THAT country.

Are Italians pure? I doubt it following the Romans conquests...

Ok myabe im going too deep...but the point im trying to make is that people will move and settle. Botha whilst born and raised elsewhere has been here for over 8 years...worked in a factory and played lower level rugby.

So he hardly came with the sole intentions of being an international rugby mercenary...

Portnoy are you ever content?

Sigh if only Botha had an English granny.....

beshocked wrote:Portnoy are you ever content?

Sigh if only Botha had an English granny.....

Nope.

That's the heretic in me. As I see it it's better than a tendency to flaccid complacency which might be more 'normal'.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy are you ever content?

Sigh if only Botha had an English granny.....

He might, we all hail from either France, holland or England.

i'm happy with Botha. He lives here, he's worked his way up through the levels and earned his place.

Works for me.

Unlike Rathbone & Vickerman who played for SA all the way to U21 and then took the Judas option, I don't think SA would have any complaints... he wasn't on the scene whilst he was in SA and more than likely, he wouldn't be now (no disrespect).

But I still would say its beyond odd to see a real Boer play for the old enemy. What would his ancestors think???

We don't have complains either way FA, well I don't.

I am so used to seeing South African running out for other countries in rugby and cricket that it isn't news anymore.

We've had Mike Catt, Brad Barrit, Mauritz Botha, Strauss, Trott, KP, Vickerman, Rathbone, this new wikcet keeper for NZ, a number for italy, Canada etc.

I can't keep track anymore.

Strauss was 6 when he left SA and his parents were English. All the rest you can have!

See what I mean, can't keep track anymore.

In return you did get Skinstad, Krige, Chavanga, Teichmann, Beast, Mujati & Montegomery.

Albeit they did come from near and neighbouring countries..

A bit like the current Welsh backline....

North, Cuthbert, Davies.... not to forget some old valley boys in Rupert Moon, Colin Charvis, Harris, Shanklin. Going to get burnt for this!!!!!

And you forgot Matty Prior, although he left when he was 11...

fa0019 wrote:In return you did get Skinstad, Krige, Chavanga, Teichmann, Beast, Mujati & Montegomery.

Albeit they did come from near and neighbouring countries..

A bit like the current Welsh backline....

North, Cuthbert, Davies.... not to forget some old valley boys in Rupert Moon, Colin Charvis, Harris, Shanklin. Going to get burnt for this!!!!!

Difference is those guys didn't come from tier one rugby nations and learnt their trade here.

Im sure someone can correct me if im wrong, but didnt Botha start out in his local club side and work his way up to where he is now entirely through the English RFU, having worked a regular dayjob for a large part of that and hes been here for what, 7/8 years.

Still, his name is Mauritz Botha, and he looks like your traditional (or should i say stereotypical?) Boer, so it did seem strange watching him fly about in the white of England.

His situation in comparison to someone like Fluteys. or Hapes, is a bit different to me, and Id say he's more deserving than either of them to wear that shirt.

We may not like the qualification rules, and many have said extend residency to 5/7 years. Well, he would have surpassed both of those aswell, so its hard to see the problem other than only seeing 'a boer.'

Biltong, all of the named have come through the welsh academy system.

only pulling your chain dude.... yeah Skinstad, Krige, Monty & Teichmann were all either born to SA parents in the frontier lands. Beast et al probably wouldn't be allowed back into Zimbabwe if they tried such is the weight of those coming the other way.

The only times this really gets to me is when I allow sentiment to overrule my head. The truth is that qualified is qualified and no amount of personal liking of or antipathy towards a particular player changes that. The back biting and bitterness of some of the comments made over numerous threads leaves me genuinely saddened. I don't doubt for one minute the genuineness of Botha's expression of pride in being capped for England and that has to be enough for me.

Comfort wrote:Biltong, all of the named have come through the welsh academy system.

Sorry which names Comfort?

Comfort

I do agree... only a little joke about Davies et al (always going to happen in countries with little or no border issues)... although Colin Charvis.... born & raised in Birmingham no and only got into Welsh rugby when he moved to London as a student and ended up playing for London Welsh. At least if I recall.

Nice chap though, met him once years back through friends... seriously hot girlfriend. Why???

Sorry Bill, "North, Cuthbert, Davies.... "

I was going to go on and talk about the complexities between bordering countries, dual nationality and emmigration for political/social reasons (these are the most important to me, they differ greatly the world over) but alas, im in work, and had to rush... (as much now!)

Facts are, everyone would like a very easy clear cut "yes" or "no" with qualification, but in the modern world it isn't that easy, and it never will be as far as I'm concerned.

I'm with you aitch, i couldn't really care less who plays for who as long as it's legal. Even the ever present spectre of Shane Howarth was really unfortunate. You can't be held responsible for your granny being a bit of a bike!

Comfort wrote:Sorry Bill, "North, Cuthbert, Davies.... "

I was going to go on and talk about the complexities between bordering countries, dual nationality and emmigration for political/social reasons (these are the most important to me, they differ greatly the world over) but alas, im in work, and had to rush... (as much now!)

Facts are, everyone would like a very easy clear cut "yes" or "no" with qualification, but in the modern world it isn't that easy, and it never will be as far as I'm concerned.

That's why it doesn't bother me anymore, you won't stop it.

Nope, and I fully agree, however, sometimes people stick out like sorethumbs a la Flutey and Hape.

Comfort wrote:Biltong, all of the named have come through the welsh academy system.

Cuthbert didn't

Newent school and Hartpury college i believe...

Completely fine that he's playing for Wales.
But he did not come through the welsh system. He was spotted by Wales 7's, then the Blues gave him a development contract this year.

thats very true, apologies, I had Ben Morgan in mind as having to get his plumbing degree here in wales cause he couldnt find a club in England.

why on earth i have no idea. you're quite right

quite ironic the difference in situations and where they're now playing!

is that the rugby equivalent of a playground '1 for 1' crisp offer?

Comfort wrote:Nope, and I fully agree, however, sometimes people stick out like sorethumbs a la Flutey and Hape.

Spot on.Morality over legality.Dewi Morris,born in Crickhowell like my goodself,moved to North England.Nowhere near good enough for Wales chose England.Good luck to him or Judas?You decide.
Close border stuff gets messy.Flutey and co make me vomit.
Shingler with Scotland was sad and shameful.The Scots,whilst I recognise their desperation,need to get a grip.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Comfort wrote:Nope, and I fully agree, however, sometimes people stick out like sorethumbs a la Flutey and Hape.

Spot on.Morality over legality.Dewi Morris,born in Crickhowell like my goodself,moved to North England.Nowhere near good enough for Wales chose England.Good luck to him or Judas?You decide.
Close border stuff gets messy.Flutey and co make me vomit.
Shingler with Scotland was sad and shameful.The Scots,whilst I recognise their desperation,need to get a grip.

Sad and shameful. Shingler was qualified for Wales & Scotland. He chose Scotland. He and they thought he was uncapped. It turned out he wasn't.

Can't see anything shameful about it. Sad possibly because the guy now probably feels hard done by and can't play for his first choice team.

Wasp, just to be a pedant about Shingler, he knew fully well he was commited to Wales, the fact he refused to sign a statement acknowledging that was his own fault. After 'that' game that tied him in he went on to appear in numerous commericals for the WRU about the future of welsh rugby and repeatedly came out and stated his intention to try and break into the welsh squad.

I feel sorry for the SRU in this, but, in reality they should have checked if there was any doubt.

No love for Steven Shingler, and it was only fitting he had to watch his brother Aaron making his debut (and having a stormer on his debut out of position) for Wales against Scotland. Money grabbing commando is that Steve!

Comfort

People can have a change of heart..... Morgan refused a call up to the saxons last year because his head wasn't in the right place... i.e. he hadn't decided on his options. But he was a little older a little wiser.

In the end, these guys are literally kids. Its a big decision for them and whilst I accept that Wales U20 side is their designated "A" side I do believe it is a little unfair on the rest of the world with actual "A" sides regardless of the notice.
Wales can technically poach players with Welsh heritage or residence rules who have played U20 for another country but not the other way around.

U20 sides have guys who are as young as 17 in them... at that age its near manipulation of minors to force them to sign their alligence to a particular country... and after playing for what is probably Wales' 6th or 7th best side.

We don't give some of these kids a right to vote, to drive a car but they're meant to decide their professional future right there and then and not be able to turn back.

Personally I don't think the WRU did this out of malice... they folded the "A" side because of costs if I'm correct.

However if they fold the U20 hypothetically does that mean their U18 team would be their designated "A" side.

In terms of Shingler it more shows how he was man-handled by the the SRU and their desperation for any players of quality. We've all done stupid things at that age, we all do still and much more so then probably folowing advice from SRU QCs and too good to be true offers from the Scotland rugby team.

If he ends up playing well enough to warrant selection for the Wales senior team I would hope that people wouldn't be too hard on him.

If I cast my memory back I think Botha was binned by SA rugby at provincial level, when he came to England, I think he started at National 3 level, someone will correct me if necessary.

Assuming my memory is correct, the fact that he may get to go on the summer tour to SA as a test standard player, is a testament to his rise in playing ability and should be recognised as a product of the English rugby system. Who else should he play for?

Players wearing the red rose do so as representatives of English rugby, to that end, as long as they ARE products of English rugby I don't see the beef.

Hape and Flutey were products of both codes of NZ rugby and should never have been selected IMO.

PJHolybloke wrote:If I cast my memory back I think Botha was binned by SA rugby at provincial level, when he came to England, I think he started at National 3 level, someone will correct me if necessary.

Assuming my memory is correct, the fact that he may get to go on the summer tour to SA as a test standard player, is a testament to his rise in playing ability and should be recognised as a product of the English rugby system. Who else should he play for?

Players wearing the red rose do so as representatives of English rugby, to that end, as long as they ARE products of English rugby I don't see the beef.

Hape and Flutey were products of both codes of NZ rugby and should never have been selected IMO.

+1

And that's as a Wasps fan who rated Flutey!

I guess if ENG had decent players at the time of Hape & Flutey and were not struggling for results it never would have been an issue.... whether or not he would have been an improvement to the side.

Results tend to put pressure on coaches to make decisions they may regret... just like Dean Richards etc.

I was very surprised that he was chosen for the lions though.... he was a good player but I didn't think he added something that different bar cover and at the time with players like Hook, D'arcy, Roberts, Shanklin & BOD it wasn't like replacements would have been threadbare.

[quote="fa0019"]Comfort

I do agree... only a little joke about Davies et al (always going to happen in countries with little or no border issues)... although Colin Charvis.... born & raised in Birmingham no and only got into Welsh rugby when he moved to London as a student and ended up playing for London Welsh. At least if I recall.

Nice chap though, met him once years back through friends... seriously hot girlfri end. Why???[/quote

Charvis is not a brummie, he's a Black Country boy, as is the Wales capped Rupert St. John Henry Barked Moon. Small point, but a big difference.

WTF! Dont know where the hearts came from- posting from phone.

And that should bee Barker not.Barked, I'm going back.to work.

Nigel Redman

Product of Bath.

A man born in a stable does not become a horse.

PJHolybloke wrote:

A man born in a stable does not become a horse.

Duke of Wellington.

Ask me another one.

What was the name of the chestnut charger he rode at Waterloo?

PJHolybloke wrote:What was the name of the chestnut charger he rode at Waterloo?

OK, you win.

Copenhagen.

I think?

Copenhagen.

Sad anorak me

PJHolybloke wrote:What was the name of the chestnut charger he rode at Waterloo?

Copenhagen? i know that was his favourite horse but don't know if he rode it at Waterloo?

Wow, we're geeks!

Think so.

I might be wrong, but God knows that's unlikely

Well done all 3 of you. Copenhagen is the correct answer.

Whats the name of the ship in mutiny on the bounty?