A question about welsh regional rugby

As an outsider (I'm English), I am intrigued to know what alternative structure the critics of welsh regions propose?

Would the introduction of a new region for the valleys, or north Wales or even both really be the answer? I can't see how that would improve the attendances at the existing 4 regions? Or maybe I'm missing something.

Surely returning to a pre regional structure would be as unsustainable financially as the regions seem to be, as unless I am wrong that was part of the reason for the regions creation in the first place?

I am genuinely interested as to what people would like to see in place of what is already there.

They have no plan at all that is the problem, they criticise the current system and a small element of Pontypridd fans are demanding their own Valleys region, but they have no way of paying for it, they expect the WRU to "find" about £4m to support them, which is frankly silly.

The problem is both Pontypridd and Bridgend had a team before and didn't support it, or / and couldn't financially support it so lost it.

The only realistic alternative we have is to go back to league rugby with clubs having a budget of about £1m each and letting all our best players go to Ireland, France and England to be professional. the problem is it will kill Welsh rugby.

Fans are already turning their backs on the regions because the internationals only basically play in Heinaken Cup games, to have no internationals at all would be the death of rugby in Wales.

To sum it up, they complain and demand change but have never submitted any kind of idea for a new structure themselves.

the official line is that it would desirable for a region to be established in north wales. RGC 1404 were set up 2 years ago with a view to playing in the welsh premiership at first and developing players with a view to perhaps going into the rabbo at a later date....however it fell through due to financial difficulties...the WRU have successfully promoted the u20's in north wales (both games in Colwyn Bay attracting crowds of over 5 thousand- more than the ospreys last game) whether they could trnsform this to a week in week out region remains to be seen...

as for a valleys region...lewis came out and said he would consider a region there if somebody came up with a credible business plan...there is alot of unrest (quite rightly in some cases) with their dis-enfranchisement spearheaded by MP Owen Smith..although to my knowledge and someone can feel free to correct me his rhetoric focuses on criticising the existing structure as opposed to proposing something better...i feel mr Smith is playing politics with what is a sensitive issue to further his own agenda in the area...

as for what else has been mooted. Roger Lewis has stated that the current business models for the regions cannot be sustained. So as we see unfolding now even squad players on high wages are not having their contracts renewed and regions will develop from their academis and feeder clubs (something the entire structure is meant to do anyway) it may take time but it will work (scarlets being a prime example)...however lewis has stated there may be different funding for different regions with perhaps two getting the most funding with the other two left or one on less than the other three or in other words a development region a la connaught and most likely to be the dragons (i could fill another post on my views on this ;-) )

what would i like to see? the same as we have now with even (if less) funding spread across all four regions

the blues to embrace their region and play games away from ccs/cap like sardis...

the dragons to further their ties with their clubs and also take some games away from rodney parade to pandy prk eugene cross etc

a welsh derby double header either to start or end the season both played at millenium stadium...done right it could be a sell out and a source of great income to the regions as well as attracting new fans

I've seen comments about Dragons becoming a development region before, but that seems really tough on their supporters who would in effect be condemednto supporting a team with no chance of ever winning anything, I'd be well pisses if that happened to my team.

Surely if the only aim really is to have teams able to compete in HC and not ones that are well supported they could save money by playing on the local park?

I really want a strong Europe wide competition and it is worrying that Wales seem to be heading the way of Scotland. Also if the welsh sides were to slide down (as seems to be the implication from some comments I have read) what would be the impact on the pro12, the irish sides and ultimately the development of rugby across the board.

it would kill the game in gwent, an area with a rich rugby heritage which has produced some leading welsh players over the years...and i dont buy the people who use the irish model as an example...connaught were made a dev region because rugby is not the major sport...and in recent years they have had their funding increased to grow the game...

the aim of the regions being implemented was to make the welsh national side stronger by making competition for places in 4 teams harder than 10-11 and also less foreigners...it has worked, the problem is that they havent worked as business models...

what is the way forward? well the regions have to do more to embrace their region, the scarlets are doing it well and are enjoying increased gates,

the ospreys are suffering from poor leadership and coupled with poor results and players leaving and being in a half empty stadium, they are however playing games at the brewery field in bridgend so if they continue in this vein and get some good results should start pcking up again

the blues HAVE to start trying to embrace there region, its pathetic i dont buy this 'ponty supporters wont support us' that may be the case, but how about they claime the morale high ground and bedn over backwards to embrace them, stage games at sardis, put buses on from ponty down, play in different colour kit perhapps...if these avenues try and fail then they can say theve tried and can go back to CAP and try and compete with europes elite with gates of 8-9000 people

the dragons also have to start embracing there region, they already do on the playing side but id like to see a joined up approach to marketing the region to each clubs fans...the dragons have spent within their means for years and continue to exist and have brought through some good players, they just need to keep hold of them and they could build something quite successful down in gwent

Stating the obvious but the stadiums imo pose a real problem for the regions. They should have done what Leicester and Munster have done and develop their grounds over time. CAP could have been redeveloped and possible allowed for the development of the one stand of the Millennium, I could be wrong with that statement. The Liberty and CCS are not great places to watch rugby. No one behind the goals, a hell of allot of empty seats, even if you get a decent crowd of 9,000, it will seem more like 3,000 rather than 20,000 inside traditional rugby grounds.

The Blues have really dug themselves into a hole with the 20 year lease with CCS. The proximity of CAP was unparalleled to any other in Britain. At the centre of the city, next to all the bars and restaurants and with very easy access for everyone from the city itself to the valleys with the bus and train station a stones throw away.

Now I do realise that old rugby stadia are out of date and quite frankly dangerous in most cases and forces a move away to a brand new stadium. But rugby isn't football, its different. Football fans love new stadiums, its a breath of fresh air and the main positive is they can fill them week in week out e.g. Cardiff, Brighton etc. What the Blues could've done is move to the CCS whilst redevlopment of CAP took place, probably got some decent crowds down there because it would only be part time, and move back to a more modern stadium with better facilities, but with crucially the same feel and atmosphere of the old ground. In regards to Osprey's and Scarlets, they may have been in a different position, I couldn't comment as I only know about Cardiff. But ground sharing with rugby and football never works, because rugby and football fans are completely different breeds as we all know, you can't please both. Especially if the football team becomes successful, they don't want a rugby team cutting up their pitch.

The Blues are not in a financial position to develop CAP really, and the Osprey's are not moving from the Liberty any time soon. So whether this can happen is highly doubtful. They better have a good idea as to what to do because if it carries on the way it is regional rugby will die out, simple as that.

I would tend to agree about the importance of a stadium, there is nothing worse than watching a game with 8,000 in a 20,000+ capacity stadium. I've been to the Mad Stad a couple of times and it is pretty awful. God knows what it's like at Murrayfield for an Edinburgh game.

I've never been to CAP but I would like to bet it's location couldn't be rivalled. I guess those who make the decisions thought that Blues could easily double their attendances?

I have to agree here. The stadiums are a key issue for the regions. I have watched rugby throughout Wales and I can honestly say that the best club game I watched was the Blues Vs Ulster in the Arms Park. Great game in a great stadium with an outstanding atmosphere!! Really good.

One thing they do in Ireland very well, and in NZ with their NPC teams, is sell the idea that this is YOUR team and that coming to watch YOUR team but that also it is a day/night out! I think the first step to fixing this awful mess is selling the event, such as a double header in the MS and just really try to work on getting a carnival atmosphere at each home game, moving the Blues back to the Arms Park is that first logical step. I wouldn't want to see the running costs of the CCS compared to that of the Arms Park but I could see the profit margins being a lot kinder in the AP. Also there is no reason why the Blues couldn't move their big games to the CCS, say the xmas derbies.
But first maybe one or two regions should look at themselves very hard and look at who they are suppose to represent.

Also I agree Gav that if the WRU are to downgrade the Dragons it will be a step backwards, no doubt in mind what so ever.

Here's a thought, and I am very interested Gav to hear your thoughts on my most recent idea:-
The Dragons are suffering in terms of Player resources and money. Pontypridd do not want anything to do with the Blues so... 2 add 2...
Expand the Dragons catchment area to Pontypridd and do the job that the Blues were suppose to do. I would love to watch the Dragons play Ulster at the House of Pain!!
Also it would give the Dragons a chance to change the name slightly to make everyone happy and tweak the kit slightly so it is a little more appealing. A true region with sex appeal, a giant middle finger to the WRU!!
Thoughts?

if the pontypridd fans were to say hey would come out and support that region i wouldnt be totally against it, thing is you wouldnt get many dragons supporters up at the house of pain due to the distance, however you prob would get many fans who are in the dragons region caerphilly etc going so if they could make a go of it i wouldnt be against it, although it is a bit radical

Here's a left field observation from an outsider.

The region with flakest base to me seems to be the Ospreys. With the growth of Swansea as a soccer club what about making Neath not Swansea the home of the team.

There would be stringent guidelines to make sure it was a true region but maybe a fresh start would help.

I realise there will much spitting of feathers in Swansea but you need to break a few eggs to make a good omelette.

not a bad suggestion but the relationship between major benefactor of the ospreys mr cuddy and the neath owners has soured tremendously...that is why games are played in bridgend as opposed to neath which is just up the road...

if cuddy goes its a possibility tho

I think the regions should have been totally out of the clubs hands from the start. I also said at the start of this whole mess that we should have had 3 regions. North, East and West. There is a history of East v West rugby in Wales and adding the North in makes total sense. These games can then legitimately be moved around the regions without any club bias.

These 3 regions should be owned by the WRU.

No foreigners at all. Each of these 3 sides could he headed up by one of Gatland's coaching team

The fact is that we have had more foreign players in Wales since regionalisation than we ever had when they were clubs.

Australia won 2 world cups with only 3 teams so why not. Wales is a very small country with a very small population. There is no way we can carve it up like we have and expect 20,000 each week for every game.

doctornickolas wrote:I think the regions should have been totally out of the clubs hands from the start. I also said at the start of this whole mess that we should have had 3 regions. North, East and West. There is a history of East v West rugby in Wales and adding the North in makes total sense. These games can then legitimately be moved around the regions without any club bias.

These 3 regions should be owned by the WRU.

No foreigners at all. Each of these 3 sides could he headed up by one of Gatland's coaching team

The fact is that we have had more foreign players in Wales since regionalisation than we ever had when they were clubs.

Australia won 2 world cups with only 3 teams so why not. Wales is a very small country with a very small population. There is no way we can carve it up like we have and expect 20,000 each week for every game.

Spot on. Wales like you said hasn't a mass population, and is only densely population in the three areas you mention. I said a week or so ago, that I would like to see Ospreys-Scarlets merge, playing games between the Liberty and Parc-y-Scarlets, and the Dragons-Blues merge. I believe this solves the problem of players leaving for a start, as you will see more big name players turning out for their sides week in week out imo. The Welsh boys would all be playing together and then the North could be a sort of development side, by that I mean bringing their own through rather than taking the scraps left over by the clubs merging. A bigger fan base for each region would be a certainty which would hopefully lead to bigger crowds. I also think Wales players will want to stay in Wales as the rugby will be more competitive and it is something new which may excite them. You could also as previously mentioned, have big weekends at the Millennium, with East vs West or North vs West etc, with one of the regions who isn't playing another region could play a big named side such as Leinster or Munster, who would also bring allot of their fans over for the game. It would be a massive money generator for the WRU imo.

Doc - Your point about East West North is spot on. This was how it should have been set up. Imagine what the East team would be like now. It would be the Welsh back row! These teams would have been very strong in Europe due to the quality of players in a more condensed environment.

BTW - From what I have heard the Dragons will NOT become a development region.

IS where have you heard this from?

I would support an east wales side but not if they were based in Cardiff FT

GD - A Media friend who knows the board.

I dont think the model of 4 Regions should be changed. They should keep the franchises as are at the moment.

But the things I would so tempted to do over time:-

Move the Ospreys from Swansea to North Wales. Starting with a third of their matches to playing all matches there. They could keep their training base at Swansea and travel up to play the matches in Wrexham twice a month. Scarlets have a new stadium already and the the Swans use the Liberty already anyway. I dont think the population in West Wales can support 2 Regional franchises.

As the poster mentioned above - allow zero NWQ players. This will force all franchises to develop their player development routes. Granted at Club level we wouldnt be successful for a while but its not like the attandances can get any worse.

Start playing some Derby games as double headers at the MS. I would love to see this happen with occasional derby games in North Wales to give the people up there some pro rugby. Not sure if there are any good capacity stadiums up there though as you would look for 30k-40k.

To be honest its not doom and gloom at all. But good organisations will be successful even when restricted as they tend to work with their restrictions.
It should be every regions aim to develop 2 youngsters per year into pro players. It wouldnt matter if we have 7 or 8 players leave each year to go elsewhere and would just grow the player base. Also with more youngsters getting pro contracts it would help identify locals to the team.

At the end of the day a lot of this is the regions trying to flex a little and make a point to the WRU.

The real question im wondering is what happens to Welsh Players who sign for French Pro Div 2 clubs. Bennett signed for Lyon who dont have a chance of staying up. Hook, Charteris, Phillips, Brew are also in danger of playing Div 2 Rugby next year as Biarritz, Bayonne & Perpignan. Will they really stay and play in the French second division? I really couldnt see Gatland selecting them for Wales if they do as no offence, division 2 is not a great standard.

Mushroom - I would imagine they have release clauses in their contracts. So if a team went down they can leave if they wish.

Impossible Standards wrote:Doc - Your point about East West North is spot on. This was how it should have been set up. Imagine what the East team would be like now. It would be the Welsh back row! These teams would have been very strong in Europe due to the quality of players in a more condensed environment.

BTW - From what I have heard the Dragons will NOT become a development region.

Theoretically East, West and North is a good idea. However the East team will need to be based where the majority of the population of the East are, so that would make it Cardiff (and the Cardiff City Stadium) and the West would have to be based where the majority of the population is and that would make it Swansea (and the Liberty Stadium), a grand total of 42.3 miles apart. Ok, so you spread the games around the stadia withing the region. The HEC and top tier Rabo sides would be played against at the biggest (1st home) ground. So the middling Rabo matches (Glasgow, Edinburgh, Treviso) are played in the 2nd home ground (Parc Y Scarlets and Rodney Parade), and the LV= matches and lowely Rabo sides (Aironi, Connacht) would be played in the 3rd choice home ground (Gnoll, Sardis). And financially that would make sence of how to spread the games with teh expected attendances/stadia size taken into account. However wouldn't that cause certain folk to raise the valid issue of why are we only getting the doss sides (and most likely the home regions second stringers) playing at the home games I am paying for at Neath/Pontypridd when fans who are based in Swansea/Cardiff are getting the best games.

Then in ten years time then people will be on hear saying that three regions are alienating fans and not financially viable, how about just having north and south.

GavinDragon wrote:if the pontypridd fans were to say hey would come out and support that region i wouldnt be totally against it, thing is you wouldnt get many dragons supporters up at the house of pain due to the distance, however you prob would get many fans who are in the dragons region caerphilly etc going so if they could make a go of it i wouldnt be against it, although it is a bit radical

Is it radical? The idea of merging the regions into an East and West side is a radical idea that I don't think would work. Has done nothing for Scotland or Italy why would it help Wales? If you look at the article last week in the paper it details how the regions use to be well supported. The Blues and Ospreys enjoyed great support, while the Scarlets now enjoy better support. The support is there but very poor management have let them slip through the gaps. Things such as MS double header and the Blues going back to the Arms Park will fix some of major issues facing the regions.

I think everyone needs to calm their baps (Northern Irish saying) and realise that the regions and Wales have everything there that will produce and sustain professional rugby. The support was there, it's still there, the money is there and most certainly the playing talent is there. I think we should all look at the 'above' element of these teams and have a revolution. Just look at the awful mess that the Ospreys and the Blues are in thanks to these overpaid suits, in any other industry they would have been sacked.

Merging the regions will strengthen the teams for Europe but will not allow for any development whatsoever. Nations all over the world are discussing new teams (Argentina, USA) while other nations are hoping, even if it is just a fools hope, in opening other teams (South Africa, Scotland). But for some reason Wales are looking at the idea of closing teams?? I've been here for three years and you guys frustrate me so much. As an outsider who has a bit of experience in different rugby models some of the answers are there staring you in the face, sometimes yelling in your face, but the WRU and whoever just never seem to realise what's going on.

In response to the title of this article no. The WRU and Wales have identified the major problems but they have no idea what to do. Not because there is no answers but just because they are to foolish to do it.

JayMaster3000 wrote: The idea of merging the regions into an East and West side is a radical idea that I don't think would work. Has done nothing for Scotland or Italy why would it help Wales?

That is not what they have done in Italy though - just the opposite.

Treviso is based on an existing side and Aironi are in an area which had/has 2 old Italain league sides. The plans are, I believe, to develop this with a Rome based side another club based side - Calvisano perhaps.
They have specifically not gone down the region route.

its radical to the point that the dragons region and ponty have no connection whatsoever....

as for your argument about closing down sides, i see your point, but they are businesses and if they cant sustain themselves what other options are there?

geoff998rugby wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote: The idea of merging the regions into an East and West side is a radical idea that I don't think would work. Has done nothing for Scotland or Italy why would it help Wales?

That is not what they have done in Italy though - just the opposite.

Treviso is based on an existing side and Aironi are in an area which had/has 2 old Italain league sides. The plans are, I believe, to develop this with a Rome based side another club based side - Calvisano perhaps.
They have specifically not gone down the region route.

I think you are missing the point slightly. It's not about geography but the limited playing base of two teams. However it does add strength that Wales seem to be the only nation that are looking to reduce rather than sustain or even grow.

The key difference though is Italy are basing their teams on an existing fan base whereas Wales and Scotland have tried to impose something from above.

As was agreed when Italy joined the league provision exists for them to add 2 more teams when they feel they are ready.

Ireland limited there teams to 4 as well but using an existing structure.

geoff998rugby wrote:The key difference though is Italy are basing their teams on an existing fan base whereas Wales and Scotland have tried to impose something from above.

Very true geoff and look at what your average Pontypridd supporter has had to put up with.

In April 2003, Ponty played in what is now known as the Amlin and lost the semi final to London Wasps featuring a certain Mr Dallaglio and Rob Howley. Months later they were forced into a one sided merger with Bridgend and the Celtic Warriors were born, but only 3 games were ever played at Ponty's ground at Sardis Road. Even before the ink was dry it seems, the Celtic Warriors were culled and the WRU told Ponty fans that their regional side was now Cardiff Blues.
So in what was little more than 12 months, Pontypridd went from challenging for European honours to being merely a feeder club to their fiercest rival.

If I had been a Ponty fan back then I would have told the WRU where to shove it and would do the same today.

I don't think the Welsh public have ever bought in to the Celtic League and aren't interested in games by plastic regions against Scots, Italian or even Irish sides.

I think what the public do want is derby matches where our local rivalries and tribalism are at the forefront of the experience.

Why don't we have club rugby for the majority of the year and only have regional rugby for Heineken Cup.

If we had say an 8 team club Premiership, they could play each other 4 times a season like the big clubs used to do. Then players would be selected from those teams to represent East West and North, mainly on a sort of State of Origin basis. North Wales would have to be topped up for some time with players who aren't from the region.

Gatland's team ie Howley, Jenks and McBride could take charge of one each for these periods so that the Welsh team management philosophy is carried on through these.

Maybe contract the top 45 players to the WRU, 3 in each position who would be the first 15 for each of these regions. This allows space for other club players to push for regional recognition in each match day squad.

These 45 could then also be allocated to a club, so each would have 5 or 6 Welsh squad players.

The Welsh management would then be in control of the top players but there would be enough clubs to allow plenty of young players to come through.

As I understand it the WRU has about £14m to play with so could give each club £1m and then contract the Welsh squad with the other £6m.

The WRU would also then be in charge of the marketing for the regions and could put some serious money behind it, as at the moment approximately £0 is spent on marketing at the regions.

Club rugby would then be our bread and butter again on a Saturday afternoon but hopefully we could unite behind our own region without club rivalries screwing the whole thing up. Regional rugby could be played at Wrexham, MS, Dave, CAP, CCS, Liberty, PYS and have a truly regional experience.

Oh, and the other thing I would do is what the BaaBaa's do which is you wear your own club socks. So say East Wales were playing the players would turn out in socks from Cardiff, Newport, Pontypridd, Bridgend, Pontypool or wherever.

I just don't think any tinkering is going to make what we currently have a long term solution.

doctornickolas wrote:I don't think the Welsh public have ever bought in to the Celtic League and aren't interested in games by plastic regions against Scots, Italian or even Irish sides.

I think what the public do want is derby matches where our local rivalries and tribalism are at the forefront of the experience.

Why don't we have club rugby for the majority of the year and only have regional rugby for Heineken Cup.

I've heard this idea mentioned before, but do we know if it was considered back in 2003?

geoff998rugby wrote:The key difference though is Italy are basing their teams on an existing fan base whereas Wales and Scotland have tried to impose something from above.

As was agreed when Italy joined the league provision exists for them to add 2 more teams when they feel they are ready.

Ireland limited there teams to 4 as well but using an existing structure.

Well depending on your interpretation of the regions, the regions were established on a existing fan base and the regions are no more than super clubs??

Either way I feel my point stands that if Wales were to restrict their player base it would be detrimental to Welsh rugby.

JayMaster3000 wrote:I have to agree here. The stadiums are a key issue for the regions. I have watched rugby throughout Wales and I can honestly say that the best club game I watched was the Blues Vs Ulster in the Arms Park. Great game in a great stadium with an outstanding atmosphere!! Really good.

Yes it was a fantastic atmosphere at the Ulster game and massively different from the CCS experience.
It cannot be emphasized enough how problematic the stadium issue is for Cardiff Blues.
Just compare the following;

1) at the Arms Park: Cardiff Blues v Ulster (Pro12) - international players unavailable/televised live on BBC2W. Att 9154

2) at CCS: Cardiff Blues v Racing Metro (HEC must win group decider) - all international players available/televised on Sky. Att 8091