The death of NH international rugby.

Slightly melodramatic I know, but I can't help but feel underwhelmed by the quality of rugby in this season's 6 nations. I do not remember a game that produced any real excitment, interest or sustained attacking play. The constant need to play by a certain 'game plan' meant that any creativity or individuality was stifled, nay choked at birth. International rugby has become a series of set plays, players scared, or unable to light up the game with their undoubted skill. The game as a spectacle has gone; nothing to cheer, nothing to inspire. What did the matches today produce to inspire anyone to take up the 'real' beautiful game? Ireland are scared to do anything, France are deflated, England haven't used their backs all tournament, Wales won by default (producing a dreary brand of rugby based on grunt), Scotland and Italy were true to form.

Nothing to talk about, nothing to inspire, nothing to hope for. Seriously, this was awful.

Well I all but stopped watching when the ELV's were in force, but I did enjoy this championship.

It wasnt great for attacking rugby it has to be said, but you cant fault the commitment and tension generated by some of the games.

You obviously missed Ireland v. Wales in the first week then. 5 tries and a nailbiting finish. Plenty of attacking from both sides ........... I could go on. Surely one of the best games in a long while?

Every time Wales win the Grand Slam there's some problem with northen hemisphere rugby! For goodness sakes!

Not Welsh rugby per se, rugby in general. The game is flat, in my opinion. Just dull.

a pretty poor 6 nations.

only solace is the best time by a mile won it. well done to wales.

wales are a good side and have played the best rugby. they are an index finger to some cluless irish journos who equate rugby with the number of caps a team has

well done to england who have thrown in some younger lads who have responded very well. some moments of flair on top of a mighty forward effort

and to add balance i thought it was a poor tournament when we won the slam

This sort of thread makes me feel very sorry for people cant see what goes into preperation of some of these tems.
Meister
If you cant appreciate the effort and discipline put in by both France and wales today then there probably is no point in looking for the quality that you seek in NH rugby because even when you are looking at it you wont recognise it.
Warren Gatland has done an excellant job over the last 12 months,and has turned wales into a very, very effective rugby team and every member of that team has grown a foot taller in the last year.
Just because some teams arent functioning as well as they should be,doesnt mean the death of all NH rugby.

aucklandlaurie,
Extremely well said. Couldn't agree more.

aucklandlaurie wrote: This sort of thread makes me feel very sorry for people cant see what goes into preperation of some of these tems.
Meister
If you cant appreciate the effort and discipline put in by both France and wales today then there probably is no point in looking for the quality that you seek in NH rugby because even when you are looking at it you wont recognise it.
Warren Gatland has done an excellant job over the last 12 months,and has turned wales into a very, very effective rugby team and every member of that team has grown a foot taller in the last year.
Just because some teams arent functioning as well as they should be,doesnt mean the death of all NH rugby.

This is an excellent post! I'm a little drunk apart from agreeing I'll just post an excellent song. Wel done Wales!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfNb1w7pVcA

There has been some very good rugby, some exciting and close matches (Wales v Ireland, England v Wales being probably the best two) and some interesting contrasts in how to win games - England won 4 matches, with the first two being fine examples of grinding out wins away from home in tough conditions, the win against France having some good attacking rugby and the Ireland game being based on the effective demolition of the Irish scrum.

There are a few issues that need looking at to improve the game as a spectacle:
1 - Scrums. Too many resets and trivial free kicks. We've discussed the issue to death on here, but the IRB seem unaware or unable to deal with the problems of the CTP....E sequence
2 - Offside defenders. The umbrella defence relies on one of the centres getting up quickly and into the passing lane from the 12 to the wingers, and is very effective, particularly if you can make a bit of a head start relative to the back foot at the breakdown. Hopefully, attack coaches will start to find a way of putting players through the hole in the line - maybe need someone running out off the inside shoulder of the 12 in the way that Cohen used to do so effectively off Wilkinson
3 - Getting clean ruck ball. A couple of years ago the interpretation was changed so that the tackled player had to clearly release the man before being allowed to compete for the ball, but this seems to have been relaxed again. Also, so many players (from both sides) are going off their feet and near or over the ball to disrupt illegally but without being penalised.
4 - Balls being left at the base of a ruck for an eternity. Time for the refs to give the halfbacks the hurry up on this in the same way they do in mauls.

All teams are judged by results,the win is more important than the how.Styles of play are governed by the what the players can perform.Consider that Wales and England are re-building,England and France have new Coaches.
At every level any attempt at creativity is stifled,mid field backs are more crash ball or strong defenders,than jinky creators.
NH rugby especially,first thought is recycle ball and pick and go,SH is more about putting runners into space.
SH style Rugby is often laughed at as airey fairey stuff,rather than recognized for what it is.
The TV analyst is a major player now,charge downs and intercepts are planned
rather than luck as here to fore.
Blitz,rush defence only works if defending side starts from an offside position,but is seldom policed.
Laws concerning Scrum/Maul/Breakdown/Offside need reviewing,it was said they would be post RWC.
Certainly in SH refs are policing the tackle/breakdown area more strictly especially sealing off.
Finally would England or Wales fans rather they played exciting rugby and lost or what they used this year.England 2 years winning 4out of 5 6Ns matches,Wales a solid RWC and a 6Ns Grand Slam.
When was the last RWC won by exciting running rugby 1987?overcoaching is rife at all levels in NH.
BUT Coaches /players are judged by results NOT how pretty they perform no matter how much TV wants it.
The ELVs were supposed to improve things,BUT the NH with there block vote majority refused to implement them.
They did`nt even trial most of them at IRB Law changes are only possibleby wheeler dealing.NH Block vote means what Nh wants it gets,major changes are required in the laws but will they be implemented.?

Yes some very good points there DH.

I do think we sometimes we look at the past with rose tinted specs. The game has changed a lot & not always for the worst.
Defence now is more important, players are bigger & the games are analysed more because of professionalism.

The key is to play with quick ball accurately & we haven't seen a lot of that in this 6Ns.

I believe Wales will be disappointed when looking back at their performances in general because they didn't put away the other top teams & struggled to adapt their game plan.

The 6Ns doesn't regularly produce great games but quite often great plays.

I still wouldn't change things though & every team can take positives from it even Scotland.

I actually think the standard was a little better than the last few years

ye i agree with this im delighted the 6 nations are over...cant wait for proper rugby in the HC

This was one of those 6Ns where the teams all improved round on round - performances that won you the first round weren't enough to win in the second, and so on. Eng/Ire yesterday is an exception because when your scrum is hammered like that nothing else counts.

No guarantees of course, but I reckon Wales have a very good chance against Aus this summer, and England ought to at least be competitive in SA.

Don't think I'm declaring the death of NH Rugby just yet.

I personally thought it was a good tournament. Bar the games played in ridiculous conditions, most of the matches were played with great intensity and I think your analysis is based on 5 minute highlights rather than the full 80.

I was on the edge of my seat for the last 3 England games anyway.

well southern hem rugby no great shakes is it... the auusies are as bad in scrum as the irish , so bad we had to change the rules for them.... darn ELVS ruined the game

You do know that nearly all the ELV's were reversed and are no longer in operation

You didn't watch Ireland v Wales then?

I basically agree with the OP. The rugby has been very poor.

Wales have been excellent, but pretty 2 dimensional. I don't think they'll challenge the SH teams...yet.

However, they also obviously have huge potential. I think a more creative influence in midfield, maybe Williams for JD2 could be the difference. If/when they expand their game-plan, they're going to be a helluva team. Playing in about 2nd gear they already had far too much for the rest of the NH. It's a scary thought, but ultimately i'll be delighted if they step up and give the SH teams a proper shoeing over the next few years!

News of the death of "NH rugby" is greatly exaggerated!

Meister, perhaps you should start watching a different sport as I fear the game of Rugby Union will not meet your exacting standards.

This was a very good 6 nations with several close games that swung on a moment of individual flair, a refs decision or an extraordinary tackle. Edge of the seat stuff. We have seen some great try's, fantastic defence, great hits, great offloads. This game that we love has something for everyone. Cuthberts try yesterday was a magnificent effort as was England's demolition of the Irish scrum. Real rugby fans can appreciate 10 man rugby when that's what is required to win, just as much as a try fest.

Every tournament throws up winners and losers. For me, Wales and England have most to celebrate. Italy have moved on and could have taken England early in the competition (they have to find some half backs). Ireland will be very disappointed with their last two away games in particular, whereas Scotland and France need a rethink - for different reasons.

Some of the rules certainly need an overhaul, but international rugby is alive and kicking. Very churlish to think otherwise.

Hood83 wrote:I basically agree with the OP. The rugby has been very poor.

Wales have been excellent, but pretty 2 dimensional. I don't think they'll challenge the SH teams...yet.

However, they also obviously have huge potential. I think a more creative influence in midfield, maybe Williams for JD2 could be the difference. If/when they expand their game-plan, they're going to be a helluva team. Playing in about 2nd gear they already had far too much for the rest of the NH. It's a scary thought, but ultimately i'll be delighted if they step up and give the SH teams a proper shoeing over the next few years!

Hoody, I am not sure the Rugby has been poor, per se. But I think Wales are the only team in the Six Nations which really tried to open it up and play that real up-tempo, attractive Rugby. Yet, the difference between them and England (who won the 'unattractive' sweepstakes) was one singular great Scott Williams individual effort. I am not sure whether that shows Wales still have a ways to improve or whether both England and Wales are better than we thought.

I generally root for all Northern Hemisphere teams when they go south. Not because I root against the South, or anyone, which I don't. Its more about rooting for my team, then the teams from my neighborhood, if you will. So I am looking forward to this year's June Internationals with more interest that usual because I want to see Wales open it up against the Aussies, who are a bit similar. And I want to see England measure themselves against the Boks, who are also a bit similar.

I don't think that the 5m offside line from the scrums has helped the game. It's just resulted in crash ball 12's and more contact.

Brian Ashton's recent interview with total rugby was quite interesting, talking about where he thinks the game is at the moment http://www.irb.com/mm/Audio/Home/TotalRugbyRadio/02/06/13/03/2061303_HI-AUD_English.mp3

I certainly agree with the original post. This 6N has been extremely poor for me. Yesterday's 3 matches were appalling to watch and provided very little entertainment. Here are my thoughts on the teams.

Wales - the best team and deserved their GS, but their performances went downhill after the Ireland game and they struggled in their remaining matches. Nothing to suggest at this stage they will beat All Blacks or South Africa or Australia. They do have the potential to play alot better and more creartively. Not a GS to remember.

Eng - even as a Eng fan and pleased though I am with their improved results their performances have been poor. Totally lacking in anything resembling creative play and boring to watch. The 1st half yesterday and the Scotland and Italy games were dire. They have great defence, a good goal kicker and improved pride in the jersey. lus they scrummaged well yesterday. But the stats for the 6Ns say it all......had to make the most tackles, completed the least passes, kicked the most possession and made the most errors.

France - unbelievable the way they keep appointing morons as head coach. PSA was totally negative at Sale and Toulon and has started as France coach the same way. What a waste of all their talent. For France not to play attacking rugby is just plain stupid. Beauxis at 10 and Fofana pushed out to the wing.....nuff said. Really poor this season, but of course if they play the right way they have the talent. Must be very frustrating for French fans.

Ireland - just a lack of depth here. No BOD for Wales match showed some defence errors plus the loss of Ross yesterday was horrible. Plus the heroic back row appear to need a rest. They are great players, but the RWC and non-stop rugby appears to have wearied them. At full strength still a great team, but they clearly need to develop their reserve players.

Italy - great pack and rubbish backs. Shocking kickers.

Scot - great forward effort but no composure in attack at all. There is some substance there and I think matters can be turned around.

Overall - the Southern Hemsiphere nations will not have lost any sleep at all watching the 6Ns bore fest. We all need to do better and have the balls to play some rugby.

The top four teams were pretty evenly matched this year I thought, hence no drubbings. I thought Wales played some good rugby apart from when England closed them down.

The top four teams were pretty evenly matched this year I thought, hence no drubbings. I thought Wales played some good rugby apart from when England closed them down.

While I would say there are still vulnerabilities in this Wales side, I reckon they Aussies should be concerned. IF they aren't, they will lose imo. I have the Welsh as slight favourites.

South Africa must be expecting to beat a young inexperienced England in the early stages of their development, but I reckon we should see some good games. Really looking forward to it.

The top four teams were pretty evenly matched this year I thought, hence no drubbings. I thought Wales played some good rugby apart from when England closed them down.

I'd have agreed until what the English scrum did to the Irish yesterday. Not sure where Ireland are now. Apart from in deep shock.

Yeah, that was a drubbing to be honest. I still don't think they far off.

the death of NH Rugby

...reports greatly exaggerated

Would NH international rugby be dieing a death had England won the 6 Nations though?

Cowshot wrote:I'd have agreed until what the English scrum did to the Irish yesterday. Not sure where Ireland are now. Apart from in deep shock.

Ireland use older players, limit squad rotation to injury necessity, played four Six Nations games without a break, and have only a few coaches left who now double job. The Ireland National coaching system is in turmoil - the players worked valiantly this season to try and disguise the fact, but England finally exposed the emperor with no clothes.

Where are Ireland now? In need of a complete overhaul of a coaching team. Nothing less.

we can only go on the evidence before our eyes...the tests will come this summer!

Meister wrote:Not Welsh rugby per se, rugby in general. The game is flat, in my opinion. Just dull.

I would love to know what you expect from rugby, I don't mean this in a nasty way. but I really would love to know.

This overhyped perception people ahave of what is entertaining is half the problem.

Rugby has many facets.

Just look at all the varying tactics and technical aspects we saw this weekend.

Forwards.

We saw an england pack destroy an Irish pack, I don't mean destroy, but murder.

We saw an Italian team with limited talent in the back dominate a scottish team to such an extent with their passion and forwards that scotland who has had a near perfect record in the line outs couldn't win a 1 ticket lottery based on how they struggled.

We saw Cuthbert get a ball on the wing from a counter attack against france running down the line and cutting in at the precise moment to score a classic try.

We saw murderous tackles, big clashes and breakdowns dominated by packs wwo used their collective efforts to secure ball.

Pray tell, what is it that you want to see?

A team can only play as well as they are allowed, England may have looked docile on attack for most of the six nations but showed excellent defensive organisation and good defence, we saw new talent on show.



If you want to see fast running athletes, wait for the olympics, if you want to see only the running part of rugby with none of the nuances and facets that makes rugby great, then just under the rugby thread is the rugby League, they'll tell you where to catch a game.

I am sorry for ranting , but damn, I just don't get it.

What Biltong said

We saw an england pack destroy an Irish pack, I don't mean destroy, but murder.

Glad to see that from a neutral. It's what I've thought but didn't know how far national bias might be perverting my appreciation. Maybe I'm a but morning after the night before, but I honestly can't think of a more comprehensive scrum v scrum hammering between roughly equally ranked sides at an international level.

Just off to watch it again. Sorry, Ireland.

Oh, Wales did quite well too...

It was murder. We might be sore (and bad ) losers this morning - but I don't think anyone is blind - either neutrals OR indeed the Irish themselves.

Murder is what it was - don't have to be shy about saying it.

Well said biltong!

I tend to agree the NH is still not quite up to the standards of the SH 3, but it is a bit harsh to say there was no exciting games this 6 nations. Ireland vs Wales, Wales, vs France, Wales vs England (for the intensity) Scotland vs France, 1st half of Ireland vs Scotland (my favourite half of rugby all 6 nations). Italy vs England (Italy ran in some fantastic try's).

I am a massive fan of SH rugby - but for the first time ever, possibly, I reckon that, on neutral turf, England, France, Wales and maybe even Ireland would fancy their chances against SH opposition.

So NH looks in good shape to me.

Dfildcher you are badly mis informed,the ELVs were NEVER fully trialled in the NH.
Of the few that were,very few passed into law those that did [with one exception]were the worst choices.They were passed by NH edict,NH has the majority vote at the IRB.The Australians did`nt impose the scrum rules the IRB did many of those are now to complicated.
SH Rugby not up to much? then why is beating a SH side such a big deal. 6 out of 7 RWC titles THE only thing NH posters seem to think of.
When THE England side was winning by methods it was "How great they were" from the supporters "Or boring England from the losers"
The All Blacks used similar tactics for 15 years 1950 -64 they lost one series {narrowly to the Boks} in that time.Power packs,formidable defence and goal kicking sound familiar.The Boks almost universally won by the same methods,Australia alone.
Used average Forwards,and a series of great innovative backs,the England victories in 2010.
If the goal kicking by Australia had been international standard england would have lost that one[in Australia].The Second in England an inexperienced Australian team.Losing ,behind a man in the bin Penalty coming up to half time.
A gimme 3 points in front of the posts,NO a tap ball lost in contact quick pass to Ashton History.
Very likely had they taken the right options Australia would have won that one too.Currently standing worlds number 2 side not so dusty.
In my opinion the constant tinkering with the laws,making them over complicated.Plus the Card System has ruined the game,the Scrum,Lineout,Maul and traditional ruck was far better.
If the Ref. though an act warranted it then send a man from the field,something that only happend twice in about 60 years.
The use of substitutes is another thing,apart from injuries or tactical purposes,the current trend.
Of clearing the bench for the sake of it seems illogical,and IF a player in this era of sports medicine.Cannot go a full 80 minutes then he should`nt be playing.

doctor_grey wrote:

Hood83 wrote:I basically agree with the OP. The rugby has been very poor.

Wales have been excellent, but pretty 2 dimensional. I don't think they'll challenge the SH teams...yet.

However, they also obviously have huge potential. I think a more creative influence in midfield, maybe Williams for JD2 could be the difference. If/when they expand their game-plan, they're going to be a helluva team. Playing in about 2nd gear they already had far too much for the rest of the NH. It's a scary thought, but ultimately i'll be delighted if they step up and give the SH teams a proper shoeing over the next few years!

Hoody, I am not sure the Rugby has been poor, per se. But I think Wales are the only team in the Six Nations which really tried to open it up and play that real up-tempo, attractive Rugby. Yet, the difference between them and England (who won the 'unattractive' sweepstakes) was one singular great Scott Williams individual effort. I am not sure whether that shows Wales still have a ways to improve or whether both England and Wales are better than we thought.

I generally root for all Northern Hemisphere teams when they go south. Not because I root against the South, or anyone, which I don't. Its more about rooting for my team, then the teams from my neighborhood, if you will. So I am looking forward to this year's June Internationals with more interest that usual because I want to see Wales open it up against the Aussies, who are a bit similar. And I want to see England measure themselves against the Boks, who are also a bit similar.

Ha, blimey it's been a while since the old 'Hoody' nickname came out

Fair enough, perhaps i've been a tad harsh. I agree with Biltong that there is more to rugby than the running aspect, and that there is a beauty to scrummaging etc. But i still feel the intensity and creativity under pressure of these games is miles off that of the 4Nations. I think the NH teams are evenly matched, and i think the WC showed the gap between them and the SH teams isn't huge. But it does exist. I think the positive is that the NH packs all look like they are getting to a point where they can challenge the SH's...well maybe not the All Blacks, but not too far off. France, if they get it right, have showed they can compete against them during the WC, i'd be amazed if Wales don't start to show the same, and England and Ireland can pull off one game victories.

Wales equalled the record they set in 2008 by only letting in 3 tries whilst winning a grand slam.

viewtothegym wrote:Wales equalled the record they set in 2008 by only letting in 3 tries whilst winning a grand slam.

And going by some poster's opinions rugby is flat becuase teams are well organised in defence.

Blimey

hugehandoff wrote:Not a GS to remember.

Every Grand Slam is one to remember. If England had come 8 points better vs Wales at HQ we'd all be hearing how glorious England's comeback post RWC was and how they utterly dominated and we'd have heard the phrase "England power" so much it would have lost all meaning.

The death of NH rugby? Total rubbish! What we have are various sides in various stages of transition, Wales currently at the forefront. I for one think the Lions tour next summer will be very interesting. Wales and England have some outstanding young developing players between them. Scotland have some promising forwards in Gray and Denton and Ireland will bring some quality players to the mix no doubt. Given a year or two I forsee Wales, England and France being the major forces in the NH and all three taking SH scalps.

I'm not sure what everyone was expecting...

It was post WC year, most teams have lost a number of their top internationals, and coaches, the facts are...

3 new coaches,

1 of those interim hoping to get the job,

Of the other 3 coaches, 2 under huge pressure for results,

A very young England and Wales team,

A French team attempting to change the style of play,

Wales and Ireland with rather large injury, recent return from injury and casualty lists.

I predict that when the 4N starts, the 'spoiling' of Argentina, and the disrupted squads for the rest will result in some sub par quality games too, especially from SA who will be looking keep scores down etc...

If this happens, and games are not free flowing 40 points all types (like all the super games have been so far??!!!) will we be reading that rugby is dead?!

"If England had come 8 points better vs Wales at HQ we'd all be hearing how glorious England's comeback post RWC was and how they utterly dominated and we'd have heard the phrase "England power" so much it would have lost all meaning. [/quote]The death of NH rugby? Total rubbish!" Totallybiasedscarlet.

Nice chip on yer shoulder there! I can only call it how I see it. And if all our teams start beating the 3Ns then I will be pleasantly surprised.

But until those matches you won't mind if we revel in a GRAND SLAM!

I actually thought this was the one of best 6nations quality wise i had seen since the early 00s.

hugehandoff wrote:"If England had come 8 points better vs Wales at HQ we'd all be hearing how glorious England's comeback post RWC was and how they utterly dominated and we'd have heard the phrase "England power" so much it would have lost all meaning.

The death of NH rugby? Total rubbish!" Totallybiasedscarlet.

Nice chip on yer shoulder there! I can only call it how I see it. And if all our teams start beating the 3Ns then I will be pleasantly surprised.
[/quote]

My chip! Dick Best said Wales' 05 Slam was based on sinking sands. We won the 08 Slam because everyone else was rubbish and this year it's the "death of NH rugby" - and I've got a chip on MY shoulder!

Nice try my friend

Call it as you see fit by all means. I just think england fans need to be more optimistic. You have the makings of an excellent team there. 18 months of rugby will see Wales and England at their prime I believe. Good times ahead for both nations!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not sure what everyone was expecting...

It was post WC year, most teams have lost a number of their top internationals, and coaches, the facts are...

3 new coaches,

1 of those interim hoping to get the job,

Of the other 3 coaches, 2 under huge pressure for results,

A very young England and Wales team,

A French team attempting to change the style of play,

Wales and Ireland with rather large injury, recent return from injury and casualty lists.

I predict that when the 4N starts, the 'spoiling' of Argentina, and the disrupted squads for the rest will result in some sub par quality games too, especially from SA who will be looking keep scores down etc...

If this happens, and games are not free flowing 40 points all types (like all the super games have been so far??!!!) will we be reading that rugby is dead?!

Great post I agree.