What a difference a game can make

Well the 6N has drawn to an end and Wales came out worthy winners with a very spirited and determined England close behind. It´s easy to forget after their disappointing RWC that England were last year´s winners and could have achieved that very rare thing in the 6N with a back to back win if the result had gone the other way against Wales.

It´s also easy to foget how different England´s season might have been if they had won that game in Ireland last year. Although they ran out tournament winners, there was a anti-climactic feeling that came out of that loss. It irks me when I hear people say it´s a dead rubber or the game is pointless.

When there´s very little separating sides, you have to approach every game as an opportunity to score valuable psychological points not only over your opposition but for your own confidence. Look at how Ireland admirably came back from their narrow loss against Wales. They improved as the tournament went on and broke their losing streak in Paris and overcame Scotland that had troubled them in the past. But now their season feels like a let down because of that big loss to England and the good work they had put in on their scrum in previous years went many steps backwards last weekend.

The same, however, could be said for the winning sides. Wales and England have every right to be satisfied with their 6N for different reasons. But that good feeling and confidence will count for very little if they don´t perform in Australia and SA respectively. Then there are the AI series at the end of the year where Wales and England will both face the ABs and England faces the big 3 in the SH. So whilst there should be a lot of confidence drawn from this 6N, that confidence should be reserved as things can change very quickly.

Ireland may well find that loss to England a source of inspiration but that is not the ideal form of preparation going into a three match series. Wales and England should approach their respective series with the intent of winning but they should be wary that the good work done so far this year can be largely undone in very little time if they´re not focused and mentally prepared for the challenges ahead. For every game counts and if you think 1 victory is enough, then you´re entertaining the idea that losing is acceptable.

Why do we putt better for par than when we putt for birdy? Because the pressure not to lose is greater when we putt for par. That is the same attitude many Home Nations need when they face the SH. Saying a win is acceptable is not good enough. Take each game as it is and believe you can win each game. Because they are good enough to win. And once you lose one game, your mindset changes. Winning breeds confidence and confidence makes for a better performance. Just ask Scotland who were undeserving in many instances of the wooden spoon but also are so badly in need of that winning feeling.

I always enjoy readin your musings about rugby Kia. And I do agree with you there is no such thing as a dead rubber.

Not when you stand the chance to beat the all Blacks 3-0 in a season, when 2-1 could suffice.

I think there is huge pressure on Wales to finally get a string of results against the SH teams.

They were expected to be in the running the 6n's and maybe even grand slam...and they have achieved that.

BUt i fear it will all be in vain if they cant make that next step...and really prove that they are an exceptional team as it is claimed they are.

It is irrelevant who wins the GS or 6n be it Wales, Ireland France...we (Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England) MUST start beating NZ, Aus and SA on a regular basis...

"Why do we putt better for par than when we putt for birdy?"

you what!

its easier to putt for birdie as there is less pressure on the miss- i take it you meant the other way around!


par savers are the tough ones, they keep your round going

biltongbek wrote:I always enjoy readin your musings about rugby Kia. And I do agree with you there is no such thing as a dead rubber.

Not when you stand the chance to beat the all Blacks 3-0 in a season, when 2-1 could suffice.

I'm afraid you're only playing us twice this year Biltong

Perhaps better to look at close games than humilations though.
Had Scotland not mamanged to completly goose up multiple chances to win their opening game how different would their, and Englands, 6 nations have looked?

How about Samoa knocking over a 3 pointer against Wales in the world cup? Would Fatland even have been charge come the 6 nations?

Small margins.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I always enjoy readin your musings about rugby Kia. And I do agree with you there is no such thing as a dead rubber.

Not when you stand the chance to beat the all Blacks 3-0 in a season, when 2-1 could suffice.

I'm afraid you're only playing us twice this year Biltong

Kiwi, I have been waiting to use that 3-0 in a conversation in a NOT so obvious way since 2009.

biltongbek wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I always enjoy readin your musings about rugby Kia. And I do agree with you there is no such thing as a dead rubber.

Not when you stand the chance to beat the all Blacks 3-0 in a season, when 2-1 could suffice.

I'm afraid you're only playing us twice this year Biltong

Kiwi, I have been waiting to use that 3-0 in a conversation in a NOT so obvious way since 2009.

Fair enough Biltong. Though as this is an even numbered year I should perhaps refer you to the 2006, 2008 and 2010* tables


*Grand Slam

Low blow, even for you Kiwi.

biltongbek wrote:Low blow, even for you Kiwi.

Awww


I'm pretty sure Steve Hansen won't be picking up a slam this year.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Low blow, even for you Kiwi.

Awww


I'm pretty sure Steve Hansen won't be picking up a slam this year.

As if that is going to help.

I think Ireland and England showed that the way to beat Aus is playing conservatively. The open game suits them to a tee. Providing Adam Jones is not injured (like he has been the last two times we played Aus) I think we are capable of domination in the scrums. Can you picture Gatland allowing our backs to just stand there getting cold hands though?

Morgannwg wrote:I think Ireland and England showed that the way to beat Aus is playing conservatively. The open game suits them to a tee. Providing Adam Jones is not injured (like he has been the last two times we played Aus) I think we are capable of domination in the scrums. Can you picture Gatland allowing our backs to just stand there getting cold hands though?

Umm I remeber it differently ... they lost he game they played conservatively. That led to Johnson ripping up the plan and sticking Youngs/Flood in with the mission to attack.. They got a lead then Wilko was bought on to shut it down, which he nearly screwed up.
Then in the Autumn they just ran around like headless chickens and blew Aus out the water.

What they did keep through that though was a solid scrum platform, not difficult against Australia. Wales have the tools to get results in Australia.

PSW, the tools are fundamental to get results in Aus; the tools being Halfpenny and Adam Jones. Lost either of those two and.... well without tools you can only build a house of straw.

Ireland were very conservative. Eng were conservative in both games, but mixed it up in the 2nd fixture. They got within striking distance in that first fixture and learnt a lot from it.

I fancy Wales' chances of a win in Oz higher than ours in SA. The Aussies are always more open to getting turned over by NH sides than SA even if the stats suggest otherwise. Saffers have a habit of digging deep when it comes to the crunch and a young England is going to be tested in ways it can barely imagine. Even 1 win in the series is going to be an exceptional outcome.

Morgannwg wrote:PSW, the tools are fundamental to get results in Aus; the tools being Halfpenny and Adam Jones. Lost either of those two and.... well without tools you can only build a house of straw.

Ireland were very conservative. Eng were conservative in both games, but mixed it up in the 2nd fixture. They got within striking distance in that first fixture and learnt a lot from it.

I dunno Henson and Powell were both tools and youve done fine without them.

England were much less conservative in the second game, they used the scrum as the base but when they had possesion looked to use it. Thats the point I was making. When they played in the Lancaster style with Care Wilko they got tooled despite scrum dominance, the scoreline may not have been as emabressing as usual ( thanks to the scrum) but they were comfortably the second best team and they knew it, hence the change in tack. If Wales go to Aus and play the scrum and kick game Aus will just be really happy to see the ball given back to them. Its also a waste of their backs potential.

In the professional era France has won twice in SA 2001, 2006 and England once in 2000.

Australia has lost to england three times in the professional era at home, 2003 twice and 2010.

This is probably the best chance any NH team has had vs. SA away for the last 8 years.

If ENG can stay injury free, not have any players lose form from now and a permanent coach is in place I think ENG can perhaps catch SA cold in at least 1 match... probably the first one in Durban.

Crucially 2 matches wil be played at sea level which always enhances the oppositions chances.

SA will be coming together for the first time in 8 months, will have a new coach and near all their senior players of the RWC no longer in the setup. Their entire pack needs re-structuring esp. their lineout.

These games will help SA become battle hardened for the 4N one month after so the tour serves both teams well... but England should fancy their chances of grabbing at least 1 victory and maybe more.

fa0019 wrote:all their senior players of the RWC no longer in the setup.

And thats supposssed to make them weaker?

I tend to putt badly no matter what my score is, how does that effect the theory?

Bathman_in_London wrote:I tend to putt badly no matter what my score is, how does that effect the theory?

You are dropping your shoulder.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

Do you believe that Bekker & Kruger and equal to that of Bakkies & Matfield? I mean seriously?????

Since 2004 SA have been led by Smit, Matfiled & Du Preez almost exclusively... now all of sudden they retire en masse.

Thats going to hurt any team regardless of the talent they have in replacing them.

Meyer will play Morne at 10 in the first game.. this is almost nailed on certain (bar injury). Morne has relied on Du Preez his entire career to take the heat off him.... seen the bulls play this year?? He's struggling and its not the case of getting up to speed.

Does it make it an easy task... absolutely not, SA are still full of world class players.... but is the unthinkable achieveable... perhaps just maybe.

biltongbek wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I tend to putt badly no matter what my score is, how does that effect the theory?

You are dropping your shoulder.

Thanks Mr Els, I will keep that in mind!

Bathman_in_London wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Bathman_in_London wrote:I tend to putt badly no matter what my score is, how does that effect the theory?

You are dropping your shoulder.

Thanks Mr Els, I will keep that in mind!

Only a pleasure mate.

signed the Big Easy.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I tend to putt badly no matter what my score is, how does that effect the theory?

if you dont play competitive golf then it probally wouldnt make much difference, infact the pressure of 'getting a birdie'(in this case rare) could outweigh saving your score in a competitive round!

I read a study showed that statistically, people hole more par shots than birdy. The conclusion they drew from the study is that if you have a birdy opportunity, psychologically you´re okay with the idea if you miss it. But if you have a par putt, you are more focused to get the putt because you don't want to affect your score. There is more pressure but maybe there is more focus.

I made the point because all too often I think the NH attitude is we can win 1 out of the three matches or 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4. There was that quota system for England for example in the 2010 AI series. But what you´re implying with that quota is it´s acceptable to lose. I think Wales and England and indeed Ireland (France have disappointed me. The fight went out of them after the Ireland match. Saint André is proving to be no innovative coach and is happy to win playing conservatively. Some of those tries early on this 6N showed that France is capable of so much more than that) are capable of beating any side but sometimes, to varying degrees, their mentality has let them down.

Kia,

I think being sh1te had more to do with Englands recent losses than pshycological barriers.

PSW We came in 2010 to Twickers after a loss to Australia in HK (look at what the SA tour did to their confidence and Sydney and HK were a natural progression) and failed to impress. Gear got the rub of the green with the first try. England weren´t that bad in 2010. They deservedly won the 6n in 2011 and I think under MJ they showed improvement. Of course they have struggled since 2003 but they haven´t exactly stopped being competitive.

I said to varying degrees. England always believe they can beat Oz but it´s been a while against NZ and SA.

Interesting article. Thank you. Agree with your basic thrust.

You may have the luxury of being able to say losing is simply unacceptable with your win/loss ratio. Most of us would be spending far too much time beating up the coach/players/eachother if we followed that rule! Should we really be giving our team hell for the Wales loss? Or trying to learn lessons in the sure knowledge that there will be other losses along the way. I think to say a loss is unacceptable to a young side just before a SA tour is asking for trouble. What are we going to do if we lose one then? Sack the coach and drop half the team no matter what or why?

But yeah, what a difference a game can make. And even the order of games: I suspect if we'd played Ireland first they'd have boshed us and the whole 6Ns and Lancaster's position would be entirely different.

I´m not saying a loss is unacceptable. It is true for an AB fan . But my point was saying before you´ve even arrived in the country that you anticipate a loss is unacceptable. Take each game as it comes. If you lose the first one, of course you don´t sack the coach. But you don´t say, well we were going to lose one match so now it´s serious and we mean business. Fight for every game as if it meant the world to you.

Of course there are some teams who will lose more matches than they win. But teams like England, Wales and Ireland and France are good enough to beat the top sides. But sometimes their approach to games before the ball is kicked off seems wrong to me. Wales seemed to develop a hard ruthless edge to them this year. They had 14 men and were behind on the scoreboard in a few games and never lost their belief. Take that hard attitude into the Australian series and think that victory is always possible.

Wales seemed to develop a hard ruthless edge to them this year

Yes. And it's the thing other Welsh sides of the last decade or so have lacked. I think this is also a more rounded Welsh side. They've got big hitters in all areas. I really think they ought to beat the Aussies. Though I know the Aussies will have some say in the matter.

Adam Jones: A good prop is like a fine wine - takes a while to get the best out of them, but when they mature they can be superb.

Agreed. Wales have class over the pitch instead of needing to rely on Shane Williams. But it´s difficult to say with injuries to Priestland and Roberts. To me they weren´t as good as they were. Roberts was a beast in the RWC but Davies stepped up this 6N.

I know the poor Aussies are usually seen as the easiest team to beat in the SH big 3. They have concerns in the pack that Wales can exploit but they have a very good knack of being able to hide their weaknesses and exploit their strengths. Their backs are scarily good if they get enough ball and they don´t get injuries. But certainly Wales must go with the attitude that they must win but take it one game at a time.

In the past two tests without Adam Jones the Aussies seemed to beat us in the scrums. It came as a suprise to me given their reputation in that area. If the pack can stay injury free and step it up a level I think that will be an advantage for us. I think for a change we might have a better 2nd row list; AWJ, Evans, Charteris, Davies. It's unlikely we will travel down under injury free, but if we do I am pretty confident of a possible series win.

Also with regards to Aus; to get the best out of their team I think they'd be stupid to not start with O'Connor and Barnes at 10 and 12. I can picture Wales putting Cooper under some real pressure forcing him to crack.

I would mention that AUS are no push overs. They're the reigning 3N champs, looked very comfortable in their 2 wins over Wales in late 2011 and have not suffered retirements like most other major rugby nations.... they're a very good side and worth their 2nd place in the world rankings.

Series win.... Wales shouldn't get ahead of themselves... thats not a dig rather an honest opinion of what is at stake.

Since the RWC03 6N sides have visited AUS 19 times.... and AUS have won 18 of those matches (the sole loss came against ENG last year). Thats some record.
Added to this... of all the great teams that Wales have had over the years... they have only ever won in the SH against 3N opposition twice in their history... the last being the dead rubber 87 3rd place playoff...25 years ago.

The fighting talk reminds me of the jokes the old man used to make when recalling those who said Scotland were going to win the world cup in '78.

Anyhow, Cooper may have cracked but how many wouldn't have when 70000 fans were intent on making his life a misery every game... not even JW got that kind of abuse in 03. I doubt he will do so again anyhow...and especially not at home... are the 100 odd welsh travelling support going to be able to get under his skin for 80 mins... unlikely?

He is still a magnificent player and looking at the reds this year in his absence... he was certainly the driving force to their S15 title.

Wales should of course aim for a series win but after all the dust has settled if they come out with a sole victory it will be a major step in the the right direction for this young and talented Welsh side..

Morgannwg wrote:PSW, the tools are fundamental to get results in Aus; the tools being Halfpenny and Adam Jones. Lost either of those two and.... well without tools you can only build a house of straw.

Ireland were very conservative. Eng were conservative in both games, but mixed it up in the 2nd fixture. They got within striking distance in that first fixture and learnt a lot from it.

Thats not really true is it. If Wales' team was built around just one or two players we truly would have a house of straw. If Halfpenny is injured then we have Hook Byrne or Liam Williams to step in, two British Lions anda hotly tipped youngster god we even have Henson in dire straits.

If Adam is injured, Mitchell, James, Gardiner or Andrews can all do a job on the Australian scrum. Admittedly if we were plyaing teh Boks scrum I would be worried but not overly with Mitchell.

We have strength in depth now, wheras once losing one or two key players killed us its not the issue it was before. We went into the Ireland game with only 4 of our first choice pack, after warbs went off only three and still matched the Irish physicality in the pack.her is still uncertainty over priestland and who his back up is, every other player has at least one clear backup and a coupl of other good options behind him. Even at ten we have, Hook, Tovey, Biggar, Morgan and Steffan Jones or even Wellies if we are desperate.

Id rather play with the best team available but I think we have a good enough squad to go there and beat the ozzies.

faa0019; I think sometimes you read posts that aren't there. Nobody thinks Aus are pushovers. They could even be better than All Blacks right now, I guess we won't find out until the quad nations though. They comfortably beat us on the last two occassions even though the scoreline suggests it was close; however the series win is not an impossible task by any means. The present winning mentality is important, pro players don't dwell on history too much, that way Scotland may be thinking of their latest wooden spoon for the forseeable future. And that is not a fundamental to Scotland rugby's aims of achieving greater things now is it. I think Aus may edge New Zealand on being the toughest place for a rugby team to tour this summer and as I have highlighted our chances still hinge on some key players fitness (mainly A.Jones and Halfpenny).

As for Cooper, well what can I say. He was absolutely sensational for the Reds during the two seasons that culminated in a S15 title. Along with Iaone, Horne and probably a couple more I have unintentionally missed. My opinion on him cracking was based on his form at the end of the last Tri-Nations and the World Cup where he was under some fire if you remember. Teams were putting him under all sorts of pressure and it was effecting his performance. Not entirely sure which examples you refer to with 70,000 fans intent on making his life a misery.

"Fighting talk" is just nonsense from you and your old man I think faa. It doesn't have any relevance to what I said, I was just calling it how it is. I said last week I think just the one win would be a success. However if we go out and win the first or second test then I and many others will be demanding a series win.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Thats not really true is it. If Wales' team was built around just one or two players we truly would have a house of straw. If Halfpenny is injured then we have Hook Byrne or Liam Williams to step in, two British Lions anda hotly tipped youngster god we even have Henson in dire straits.

If Adam is injured, Mitchell, James, Gardiner or Andrews can all do a job on the Australian scrum. Admittedly if we were plyaing teh Boks scrum I would be worried but not overly with Mitchell.

We have strength in depth now, wheras once losing one or two key players killed us its not the issue it was before. We went into the Ireland game with only 4 of our first choice pack, after warbs went off only three and still matched the Irish physicality in the pack.her is still uncertainty over priestland and who his back up is, every other player has at least one clear backup and a coupl of other good options behind him. Even at ten we have, Hook, Tovey, Biggar, Morgan and Steffan Jones or even Wellies if we are desperate.

Id rather play with the best team available but I think we have a good enough squad to go there and beat the ozzies.

I Tycroes, think it is quite true. Here is why. Adam Jones was unavailable through injury the last two tests against Aus and Halfpenny was not our first choice place kicker. The result was two convincing wins for Australia where they pushed our scrum backwards at each opportunity. Now if players like Mitchell had some game time in the 6 Nations then I would be confident of our strength in depth in these positions. Same can be said for Hook who should have been giving a couple games at fly-half. These guys will be too undercooked for a tour to Oz if we have to rely on them as starters. Mitchell wasn't even given much opportunity in the RWC.

We had some starters out for Ireland correct but the guys coming in were either showing good form or experienced. Plus I think Aus by the time we get there will be a great step up from Ireland. I still think we have a good squad that is capable of beating them but I still believe our odds hinge on the positions/players I have mentioned.

Morgannwg

Dude... I didn't dream up what you said... you didn't say it wasn't an impossible task (i.e. not likely but if the stars are right yardy yardy yah)... you said that if you stay injury free you'll be confident of a series victory (go back and read your own comments if you like).

'Being confident of victory' by no shape or form suggests you think its perhaps plausible.... its at two opposite sides of the spectrum.

Anyhow, I'm not having a dig.

The fighting talk was an example of people getting wrapped up in a wave of unrealistic optimism... i.e. some Welsh boarders claiming they're confident of doing something that they have never done before/where better welsh teams have failed etc etc.

Anyhow if Wales go down and set a marker and do well and come up with a victory either in a match or a series I will certainly congratulate them for it as I'm sure they will deserve all they get.

faa0019

I didn't say it was an impossible task. I also said I'd be confident (as in more confident had we lost our key player which caused us to suffer to Aus in the last two fixtures) of a series win (not saying we would win) if we can somehow albeit unlikely take an injury free Grand Slam XV. What's your issue with either of that? Your post indicated that I wrote Australia off, was talk fighting (fighting talk), living in dreamland and Wales were overconfident when I gave my view. Clearly you have an issue with that (as you had issues with Wales post RWC by jumping on lets slag off Wales bandwagon) by claiming fans getting caught in a wave of unrealstic optimism, when one fan believes his young team can grow and push on from their successful World Cup and Six Nations. So somehow you are dreaming up some stuff and I don't know why.

If you are going to reply, try not to talk more nonsense. Ta.

Well perhaps its a language barrier.... tomat(e)o tomato etc etc.

When I say I'm confident of something happening I see it as more then likely that it will... or that I'd expect it to occur. Perhaps you see it as different.

I call it how I see it fa. I'm confident of a win against Aus, I think we will win at least one test match. If actually thought we'd suffer a 3-0 whitewash I'd come out and say it. But something tells me this Wales team is better than the ones I have seen in my lifetime, bearing in mind I'm still fairly young (born in 89).

Catching up with some S15 at the moment, Sharks vs Reds. Aus will be in fine condition should most of their players come from the Reds. Genia is one of the best (if not, the best) scrum halves I have seen since I started watching Rugby.

Genia is one of the best scrum halves you've ever seen... obviously you've not seen this young italian guy who played against England a couple of years ago.... one of the most memorable I've seen in a long time.

posted on wrong thread

What a difference a game can make?

Which game was that then?

I don't understand the point of the OP.

What a difference any game can make. Choose any game and the importance that game can hold. England last year in Ireland wrecked a largely positive 6N campaign. Wales in Ireland gave them confidence they so badly needed from last year´s games against Australia, which in turn wiped much of the gloss off their RWC campaign. Every game counts and a loss can undo much of the previous good. Look at Ireland this year. Look at what might happen to Wales in Australia.

Games mean more when pressure is heaped on the team- for instance england v wales didnt hurt england at all, because there was no pressure to win from us fans.

Ireland shouldnt have gone into the england game thinking they had a divine right to win(not saying all did mind). england were possibly on better form and at home!

No pressure to win from us fans? Did you see the Wales vs England bickering thread? I think hindsight is clouding the reality there. If there is no pressure to win then that is a very sad state of affairs for a side with as proud a history as England. That implies losing is acceptable. Tell that to Scotland who didn´t win a game or tell that to Ireland whose 6N shot at glory were stalled by Wales and to a lesser extent France. Did that make the last game a dead rubber? No because keeping the foot on the throat of a particular opponent is just as important as a wider form of victory.

No pressure to win from us fans? Did you see the Wales vs England bickering thread?

Positively mild this year I thought.

If there is no pressure to win then that is a very sad state of affairs for a side with as proud a history as England. That implies losing is acceptable. Tell that to Scotland who didn´t win a game or tell that to Ireland whose 6N shot at glory were stalled by Wales and to a lesser extent France.

The players pressure themselves to win. If they don't then something is seriously wrong. Aaabsolutely. But we as supporters have it slightly different. I was of course disappointed that Wales beat England, but we weren't favourites going in in most eyes and a young side stood up well. Sure there were errors and things didn't work but to have made the progress the side had was an impressive achievement in itself. I certainly didn't feel disgraced and feel no need to kick the team/management/dog.

Theres a big difference between wanting and expecting. Its the first time since 2003 that England fans have approached the 6 nations with realistic expectations.

There will always be some tool who'll chip in with " we really should be looking to whitewash X on the sumemr tour this year" though