606v2's REAL world champions (the upper weights)

No phoneys or alphabelts need apply.

CHAMPION
Noun: A person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition, esp. in sports.

There are lots of potential candidates - but across the weights - who do YOU recognise as "the man" at each weight?

I have listed, below - all the people per weight (upper weights in this one) who can lay a claim to be a "world champion" - simply click/comment on your choices.

Multiple choice and mind changing permitted.

I went with Wlad at heavyweight, no clear champion at cruiser and Ward for super middleweight.

By the technical definition I dont really think anyone in boxing would be a champion at the moment though.

Is Taylor the last champion to hold all four titles?

Gone for Hopkins and Ward with no clear champion at heavy or cruiser.

I think you could be correct ref: Taylor Manos - although there might be a littl'un at strawweight or flyweight who escaped my attention.

I'm starting to come to the opinion that the belts don't matter anyway. To abuse the famous quote from Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - "power resides where men believe it resides".

In the same way - a titlist is a true champion if he convinces enough of us in his status - like Ward (perhaps - although I'd like him to beat Bute first - due to Bute having preceded him as a beltholder in the division and was regarded as a potential divisional #1/2 before Ward's rise to power).

I dont think the belts matter much either, but if you hold all four then that pretty much puts it beyond any doubt.

The only way I can justify it is by chosing a lineal champion.

W. Klitchsko - Due to being more active than his brother (due to his retirement a few years back) plus he's unified the division.

Cruiser - No champion.

Hopkins - Beat Pascal and regained Ring Magazine Belt.

Ward - Won Super 6 without a loss, Bute's opposition hasn't been at the level. Ward is the man to beat at the weight.

Although - Pascal beat Dawson who was the man before Hopkins beat Pascal - so does Hopkins have to beat Dawson so we know we're not in the middle of some awful eternal cycle?

Because Bute wasn't invited into the S6 - we disrespect a lot of his opposition. However - he dominated the same Glen Johnson that Froch beat in the S6. Andrade is nobody's mug. And Bute was being talked about as "the man" before the S6 began.

Your point that most people see Ward as "the man to beat" is a valid one, however.

oxring wrote:Although - Pascal beat Dawson who was the man before Hopkins beat Pascal - so does Hopkins have to beat Dawson so we know we're not in the middle of some awful eternal cycle?

Because Bute wasn't invited into the S6 - we disrespect a lot of his opposition. However - he dominated the same Glen Johnson that Froch beat in the S6. Andrade is nobody's mug. And Bute was being talked about as "the man" before the S6 began.

Your point that most people see Ward as "the man to beat" is a valid one, however.

I'd have to say that Dawson would have to beat Hopkins to get his "606v2 Championship" back as he lost it to Pascal in the first place.

That's why I chose the lineal route rather than a super-6 style points route - "the man who beat the man". For example - Proksa was the European Champ, Hope beat the man who was top of the Euro scene, therefore he is the man in the division until he is beaten. It's basic but fair.

No real difference to Ali - Frazier - Foreman - back to Ali.

Had Vitali not retired and stayed undefeated during that time he'd be the man, but he did retire and his competition since has been awful.

Wlad with his unavenged loss to Sanders and dubious competition along with never picking up the WBC makes it tough for me to see him as the defacto #1.

Lebedev comes close at cruiser. Even though most saw it differently he does officially have a loss to Huck.

Hopkins beat the man, who beat the man, who beat some kind of man but at this point it gets tricky. Anyway it's Hopkins for me.

Ward surely needs no explanation at super middle?

Wlad on lengevity, just shading his brother. No stand out in Crusier or Light heavyweight. I can't go for Hopkins due to the fiasco of the last fight, but will happily put him where he belongs if he beats Chad Dawson next month. Ward in supermiddleweight, but I agree that Bute gets a hard time at the moment and it could be possibly undeserved (time, I hope, will tell).

I can't believe that nobody has picked Clev!! Where's Steffan??

I have no idea how anyone can say "no clear champion" at heavyweight. Wladimir is easily the clear champion. Just because he's not fought Vitali doesn't mean he's not the Heavyweight champion, he's hammered everyone thats been put in front of him in recent years.

I've got Wlad by some distance at heavy, no clear champion at Cruiser, Bhop at Light Heavy although I think the winner of Dawson/Hopkins takes that.

Whomever puts no clear champion at super middle doesn't know enough about boxing to use this board. Ward has beaten everyone so far, won the super 6 and has the majority of belts. Its strange how some peoples minds work.

Suprised more people aren't contributing to this given the amount of chatter around the issues with boxing today.

We have an opportunity to reward the 606 Championships here guys!

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Gone for Hopkins and Ward with no clear champion at heavy or cruiser.

Ghosty, how have you reached that conclusion for Heavyweight? If Ward and Hopkins meet the critera of 'real champion' then sorry, but Wladimir absolutely strolls in to that group, too.

Wlad hasn't beaten Vitali though Chris, who is considered by some as the true linear champion as he lost by TKO to Lewis, but was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

Union Cane wrote:Wlad hasn't beaten Vitali though Chris, who is considered by some as the true linear champion as he lost by TKO to Lewis, but was ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

I think the problem with Vitali is that if he had not retired due to injury he would truely be lineal champ, as Wlad pretty much cleaned up the division of belts in that time he would be regarded as the champ. It's a tough one though and I can see why Union has said there's no clear champion.

Technically, his 2 losses came when he was ahead on the scorecards.

It's a similar situation to Mayweather, we regard him as the man at Welter - dispite his 3 or 4 retirements. When he returns to the sport, he is automatically given the nod of best/2nd best Welterweight.

Mayweather has never been 'given' the mantle of world's premier Welterweight. Baldomir in 2006 and Mosley in 2010 were, at the time, the consensus leading Welterweight / had recognition from Ring Magazine, and Mayweather beat them both at a canter.

Calling Hopkins the 'true' 175 lb champion and failing to recognize Wladimir as the Heavyweight equivalent is verging on the outrageous. Incredibly, (some of) the same people who decry Jones Jr for not being the 'real' Light-Heavyweight champion in the past as he never fought Michalczewski are ignoring the fact that Hopkins, in turn, hasn't fought Erdei who, by definition, is the closest thing we have to a 'lineal' Light-Heavyweight champion. Good win over Pascal, but that aside Hopkins' Light-Heavyweight career has been patchy. Beaten by Calzaghe, a farcical outing against Dawson, unimpressive against the washed up remains of Jones etc. Nor has he annexed more or less all belts available to him as Wladimir has.

Wladimir Klitschko is clearly THE Heavyweight champion of the world in 2012, or at the very least the closest thing possible to it. Either way, his claim is a hell of a lot better than Ward's and Hopkins'.

88Chris05 wrote:

Wladimir Klitschko is clearly THE Heavyweight champion of the world in 2012, or at the very least the closest thing possible to it. Either way, his claim is a hell of a lot better than Ward's and Hopkins'.

Amen to that and well said Chris, do genuinely get baffled at the lengths some folk will go to beat Wlad on here, am not saying he is immune from criticism but lets at least keep it within touching distance of reasonable criticism, if Wlad is not a genuine world champion then there literally is not one in the world today, has unified three of four belts in his weight, has fought unifications as and when they are available or when the person involved can be persuaded not to run to the hills (yes I mean you Povetkin) and has about as understandable and acceptable a reason as you would ever hope to see for not fighting the only other guy with even a tenuous claim to be considered world champion.

rowley wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

Wladimir Klitschko is clearly THE Heavyweight champion of the world in 2012, or at the very least the closest thing possible to it. Either way, his claim is a hell of a lot better than Ward's and Hopkins'.

Amen to that and well said Chris, do genuinely get baffled at the lengths some folk will go to beat Wlad on here, am not saying he is immune from criticism but lets at least keep it within touching distance of reasonable criticism, if Wlad is not a genuine world champion then there literally is not one in the world today, has unified three of four belts in his weight, has fought unifications as and when they are available or when the person involved can be persuaded not to run to the hills (yes I mean you Povetkin) and has about as understandable and acceptable a reason as you would ever hope to see for not fighting the only other guy with even a tenuous claim to be considered world champion.

Not sure I agree. Given that Wlad , despite his numerous trouser supports hasn't and won't take care of the one man that many think is the actual best heavyweight then I'd say it's not at all clear cut. I'm not saying they should fight each other being brothers but it doesn't detract from the fact there's two of them so they automatically diminish each other.

Ward on the other hand (not a fan) has won against the best possible opposition (bar one) and most people don't think Bute would beat him.

The thing is some people do not like Wlad and use every opportunity to criticise and belittle his achievements. For me he is a fantastic boxer who would hold his own against many champs of yesteryear. That I cant tolerate him (and his brother) for their vile gamesmanship and rip off contracts is neither here nor there.

Credit where its due. Brilliant boxer.

Think the point is D that if you are not going to consider Wlad a genuine champion, given he has everything you could ask beyond 1 fight, for which the reason that has never and will never happen is perfectly understandable it is grossly unfair to consider people at other weights genuine champions given they have people they have not dealt with at their weights and with a damned sight less valid reason than that which is offered by Wlad.

Super D Boon wrote:Ward on the other hand (not a fan) has won against the best possible opposition (bar one) and most people don't think Bute would beat him.

You could also say that Wlad on the other hand has won against the best possible opposition (bar one) and most people don't think Vitali would beat him.

I see your point Rowley and I for one am not a basher of Wlad, the opposite in fact. I wanted him to shut up Haye and find him a lot less boring to watch than many others on here but even though it's not his fault - he has an older sibling with another strap and I can't help thinking that the K bros hurt each other by being around at the same time.

I consider he's a genuine champion but because of Vitali not THAT genuine if you catch my drift. He'll do well to fight on a while after big bro quits, then he can have the division to himself.

If they share the heavyweight division they have to share greatness as well though.

My reasoning for Ward is the fact that Bute has only been a paper champion and not for that long, most actually place Ward above Bute for now. Meanwhile there's still a lot of people that favour Vitali because he's been around a long while, gave Lewis hell etc. It'll do Wlad the power of good when Vitali finishes.

......WTF! Please moderators BAN FOR LIFE those who chose Marco Huck!

Do see the point D, do think one of the worst things that happened to Wlad was big bro returning because had he not you would have had to think Wlad would have been undisputed champ for a good three or four years and given how rare that is in this day and age surely a bit more respect even of the grudging variety would have had to be forthcoming, although given many tipped Haye to beat him and still didn't give Wlad any praise when he chased the loud mouth charlatan out of the ring, maybe not.

Super D Boon wrote:......WTF! Please moderators BAN FOR LIFE those who chose Marco Huck!

Ha, we have no way of knowing who it is, however have been the boozer at lunch so if you just want to pick two random folk I'll happily get rid of them.

rowley wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:......WTF! Please moderators BAN FOR LIFE those who chose Marco Huck!

Ha, we have no way of knowing who it is, however have been the boozer at lunch so if you just want to pick two random folk I'll happily get rid of them.

Well, okay how about:

Imperial Ghosty
Azania

There, it'll be a lot more peaceful on this forum without Richard Burton and Liz Taylor on here!

AlexHuckerby is quiet - but he's a Marco Huck fan...

Anyway - where were we -

Wlad:
I am a massive fan - not quite to the level of his German fan-base - but still a massive fan nonetheless.

However - my definition of "champion" means that he has to have proven himself the best in his division at some point - without exception. He holds on to that title thereafter- as it is my belief that the pretender has to make the fight with the champion.

It can be argued that Wlad had proven himself the man after Ibragimov - in which case - he's still the champ. I'm not convinced in that though - because Chagaev/Valuev were around at roughly the same time - and by the time he'd beaten Chagaev - Vitali was well and truly back in the picture.

Hence - there is an argument for calling "no clear champion" - at least until Vit retires.

oxring wrote:Hence - there is an argument for calling "no clear champion" - at least until Vit retires.

Not if you're going to bestow that status on Ward and Hopkins, there isn't. Not directed towards you, Oxy, but it remains my major gripe with some of the comments I've seen on this thread so far.

The thing is, a boxer never runs out of opposition, so there's almost always a "well, he hasn't faced so and so yet" argument to make.

I see Vitali as the better boxer of the two brothers, they both have equal claims to be top dog so it is not clear who is the definitive number one. When Wladimir beat Chagaev which was for the ring belt, Vitali was rated at number two and special dispensation was made to to put the title on the line. I have no issues with anyone who considers him to be the number one but it isn't as clear as many are making out. He has a no point unlike Ward or Hopkins beaten the number one or two in his division.

The lineal champion at light heavyweight is fairly complicated because there were at one time somewhat bizarrely two of them in Dariusz and Jones. Erdei hasn't defended a title of any sorts since 2009 so has in my eyes relinquished his lineal claim, since then the top two rated 175lbers in Dawson and Pascal fought with Hopkins beating the winner, so whichever lineal route you take it has found it's way to Hopkins.

At super middleweight Ward has beaten the consensus number two and three at the weight at the time of facing them in Kessler and Froch, it is only since those victories that Bute has jumped up from 4th so rightfully Ward is seen as the true champion.

88Chris05 wrote:

oxring wrote:Hence - there is an argument for calling "no clear champion" - at least until Vit retires.

Not if you're going to bestow that status on Ward and Hopkins, there isn't. Not directed towards you, Oxy, but it remains my major gripe with some of the comments I've seen on this thread so far.

The thing is, a boxer never runs out of opposition, so there's almost always a "well, he hasn't faced so and so yet" argument to make.

I know Chris - and the point is - I haven't bestowed the status on Ward OR Hopkins either - Hopkins due to Dawson and the Dawson fiasco last time out - Ward because Bute predated him as champion/#1or2 at the weight.

Certainly - if you have Ward/Hoppo as champion - there has to be a better reason to deny Wlad than just "he has a big bro".

I don't see the similarity between Wlad and Hopkins & Ward.

Wlad cannot be seen as the defacto #1 at heavyweight as long as Vitali's around. I'm not saying they should fight, but if they're both there and both the best then neither of them can be the standout champion. They take afew advantages of their unique situation, this is a disadvantage of it. It might not be seen as fair but that's the way it is. There are two clear champions at heavy.

Calzaghe was the number one super middle and vacated. Froch won the vacant WBC title.
Kessler won back the WBA.
Ward beat them both along with plenty of other contenders. Bute is only a champion in name, his competition doesn't warrant him being a contender for #1 as it is.

Hopkins hasn't been beaten since becoming the lineal 175 champ. Simple.

The argument in favour of Wlad seems to be that he's clearly one of the best, and can't be expected to fight the other guy who may be seen as the best. Well, tough. Who has Wlad beaten to be seen as the clear champion at heavy? Hopkins beat Pascal. Ward beat everyone with a claim.

Bute's claim predates Ward's arrival on the scene - in an admittedly fragmented supermiddleweight division. That's the only issue I have.

Furthermore - Andrade and Johnson aren't patsies. I've come round a long way in Bute's favour - I used to consider him a paper champion - but on recent evidence I think that might be a disservice.

I don't really think Bute has ever had a claim to be the divisions number one, Froch and Kessler were at the time of fighting Ward the highest rated fighters in the division aside from himself.

As far as I can see Bute has never had a claim.

Andrade knocked him out, so he better not be a patsie. Johnson's a tough nights work and Bute looked good against him, but his recent record is not at all great. Ward first beat an actual world champion in 2009. Bute's only ever fought belt holders at best. How he can fight that level of opponent time after time and be seen as having a claim to the #1 spot is beyond me. Why should guys like Ward bother fighting and beating everyone if they can just milk a belt against anybody year after year?

I dont think Bute can claim to be the man in the division at the moment given what Ward has done over the last few years.

But if we are talking purely rankings, Bute has been consistently been rated in the top 3 in the division since 2007 going off the Ring and boxrec. Froch has never actually been rated higher than him, and neither has Kessler in the last four years.

I think the Super 6 gave the participants in it a kind of unofficial to 6 spot but theliklihood for me is that Bute, despite not being part of it, was still always one of the premier fighters in the division. Technically speaking I dont think he was actually rated worse than Kessler or Froch going off independant rankings.

Actually incorrect Manos, Froch was rated higher than Bute for the majority of the super six tournament, definitely after the Abraham fight anyway. Kessler was the ring magazine number one at the time of Ward beating while Froch was number two behind him when he lost, so all in all he's beaten the best possible fighter twice.

I can't make a case for Bute BEING the clear #1 (and not much of a case for making Bute #1 at all). I CAN make a case that Ward hasn't done enough without Bute to be the clear #1 - because throughout Ward's rise to power - Bute has been there - and if not a clear 1 - he's been a clear 2.

Froch's rating after the Abraham victory seems a trifle inflated - certainly in most places outside the S6 circle - Bute was a 1/2 fighter. Kessler was, however, rated as the divisional 1/2 before Ward beat him.

Froch had earnt his number two rating more than Bute at the time though Oxy, all well and good supposedly being more talented but unless you prove it inside the ring your ranking isn't going to reflect that.

Bute seems to get the benefit of the doubt too much for my liking. He's looked great agaist poor opposition in one of the richest divisions and gets ranked without actually proving how good he is.

Fighters like Ward and Froch deserve to be rated higher because they actually challenged themselves. Froch has wins over Taylor, Pascal and Abraham. Bute has nothing on that level. What's an 0 when you haven't fought the best available?

Andrade (x2) and Johnson are not poor opposition. Yes the ref (Bayliss wasn't it?) made a right pigs ear of the last round - however - Andrade had been whipped from pillar to post for the previous 12 and we have no idea whether Bute could have stood up or not earlier. Bit like Dempsey-Tunney.

Further - of Ward's opposition - the only 2 names he doesn't share with Bute are Froch and Kessler - 2 fights he was gifted by the super 6 - and 2 fights that Bute was excluded from, unfairly. They fought the same Edison Miranda (where Bute won more impressively). Bute fought Johnson (whilst Ward dominated his conqueror, Froch).

There's plenty enough to put Ward in the #1 position - "Ring Magazine" style - but there's a question about Bute's relevance, surely?

The two names being Froch and Kessler are a pretty massive difference and whether it's part of a tournament or not is fairly irrelevant to me, Ward has beaten the best in the division while Bute has not. Butes relevance is lesser than that of Kessler and Froch as it stands in my opinion Oxy, they have both tested themselves to a greater degree.

And I do agree Ghosty - as I say - I don't think Bute can have lay any more claim to be champion than longevity. However - does beating Froch and Kessler ALONE make you clearly and indisputably the man - whilst your rival has beaten Johnson, Andrade, Miranda etc?

Debatable for me - but maybe I'm being nice to Bute because of Showtime's disgraceful behaviour.

I think when your other wins include Abraham, Green, Miranda and Bika then yes you do have a clear and fairly undisputable claim to the top of the tree.

Well - we could include Mendy, who on paper has beaten Bika (albeit through a DQ that really should have been rematched). Green? Please bro - he was never all that good. Miranda shared with Bute's win more impressive - but I'll give you Abraham - good performance.

As I say - Ward has by some margin the strongest resume - but I'm ultra-critical and I want him to beat Bute first - HOWEVER - the more you argue with me, the more I'm starting to think I am being unfair on Ward and need to give him more credit.

I'm persuadable, it seems - so I'm not that devoted a fan of Bute.

Even without Kessler and Froch, Ward has a superior record in my opinion, don't think the absence of a man who was at the time ranked lower than them both is a major gripe but I personally don't think Bute stands a chance against Ward and think he'll lose to Froch.