Ulster squad additions

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All things relating to Ulster squad changes

Notch wrote:Well we can't have both. Let me rephrase what I said; I believe it's a priority we get a good backrower in and you believe the halfbacks are the priority. I've considered your logic, but for me the arguments about bringing Jackson through quicker are more compelling. I believe he needs to be starting Heineken Cup games at 10 alongside Pienaar next season. He needs to be blooded when we have experienced players at 10 and 12, before they leave the club, retire or go into decline.

I agree with this, however there is a difference between being "blooded" and managing the game. Most posters acknowledge he has to be brought "through" to a higher level, yet the coaches made little attempt to do that this season presumably because they didn't think he was ready? Again if Pienaar gets injured (and he will be targetted) then the whole nursemaid strategy falls apart.

Some of the best teams in the world have a dominant openside and a game controlling flyhalf. Ulster have the converted 6/8 of Henry and the promising but inexperienced Birch at seven, and at ten they will have an u20 graduate in Jackson and the mediocre O'Connor. This lack of experience in two key areas is not an overnight phenomenon as these two positions have not been addressed since David Humphreys reached the end of his career and McMillan/Dawson went off the scene (albeit Pollock was unlucky). Perhaps it is an Irish thing to value even numbers in the forwards and odd numbers in the backs, but most posters are calling for another 6/8 backrow cover and not a genuine openside - is it any wonder Ireland don't have many candidates there?

Since my concerns are obviously in the minority there seems little point in protracting the discussion further, so I'll join the Ulster management in keeping everything crossed and put my faith in hope rather than logic.

I agree we have come to a dead end and probably not going to agree. I disagree with some of the premise of your last post but cant be bothered to say why as we are going around in circles.

Come on Ausk, that is a bit unfair. Every decision taken by the Ulster Management in the last two or three years has been well thought out rather than done in hope.
We are a bit behind the other two main provinces in the development of some of the younger players and the IRFU threw the curve ball re NIQ places so they most likely have had to rethink their strategy.
We as fans can speculate and put forward our ideas on where we would like to see improvements but we won't always agree. Hopefully we can respect each others opinions though.
In an ideal world Ulster would have two teams capable of competing for both the Rabo and the HC. Hopefully in another two or three years that will be the case.
In the meantime without crossing everything we will just have to trust Management to get on with it.

Rava wrote:Come on Ausk, that is a bit unfair. Every decision taken by the Ulster Management in the last two or three years has been well thought out rather than done in hope.

Every decision - really? Were Pienaar and Wannenburg well thought out afterthoughts? Tamaiti Horua, Nagusa and D'Arcy were all signed on hope rather than expectation. Perhaps Emerick was recruited to make Gilroy look good when he came in, so maybe that one was well thought out.

Horua and Nagusa were before the present regime so cannot be layed at their door. The previous regime Reid/Williams was a joke.

We did get a big slice of luck re Rush and Peel but that still doesn't detract from the credit for signing Pienaer and taking a chance on Wannenberg (and at the time it was a chance)

D'Arcy was brought in when Cunningham got injured.
The fact he has done so well is a credit to the scouting of the management.

Emerick was a big disappointment but the key thing is that as soon as this was realized he was ditched.

I do not think that the present management can be anything but praised for they way the squad have been managed. We have gone from 8th in a 10 team league and sweating on HC qualification to HC finalist in 3 years - success by any measure. Especially as we could be going into next year with only 3 players who have played International rugby for someone other than Ireland i.e. largely a home grown outfit.

Unfortunately I agree with Aukster. I think the management have done a fantastic job and too much has gone right for it to be down to pure chance but I'm not convinced that they have a well thought out masterplan either.

A lot of the descisions that have proved successful have been reactive rather than proactive ones.

If things had gone to plan we'd have signed Rush, Peel and would still have BJ. No Pedrie, no Pienaar, no Afoa and if Payne hadn't of been injured no Terblanche.

We've hired Anscombe because Cheika didn't want the gig and now we're bringing back O'Connor who wasn't deemed good enough.

Jackson wasn't even on the bench a month ago and now the management have so much confidence they think he can play 10 all next season without a decent back up?

Things are going fantastically well but to me the foundations are not there for long term success and we are still going round in circles on and off the pitch.

Tell you what lads im not going to be watching rugby at ravenhill but rather stalking david humphreys to steal whatever voodoo, rabbits foot is bringing him all this luck. Some of you are being far too disingenuous as regards the Ulster management.

I wouldnt be too down on signings like Nagusa either given where he is at now and what we were able to afford when we got him.

We cannot say how good Rush might have been at Ulster because he has been playing in a Cardiff team that is in decline and we cannot say what a new challenge would have done for him. Dont get me wrong im delighted we got Pedrie but the suggestion seems to be somehow the Ulster management ballsed up. I dont see it.

To say they are basing decisions in hope rather than logic is ludicrous given that the ulster management see the team train day in day out and know the strengths and weaknesses of each player far more intimately than any on here. You dont have to agree with their judgement but you should be man enough to admit they are in a far better position than you to offer any.

No harm Aukster, i rate you as a poster but the last bit of your post was really quite snidey and unnecessary.

Aye but you are dismissing Rush and Peel like they are rubbish! We don't have a crystal ball unfortunately so it isn't possible to gauge how successful they would have been if they had signed. I remember quite a bit of enthusiasm at the time though.

Would keeping BJ have been a mistake?

Would Payne have been better than Terblanche if he hadn't been injured?

Where have you read that Cheika didn't want the gig?

Has O'Connor been signed? I'll wait until that has been confirmed.

I've also said this before. Some players decide for themselves that they want to play for someone else. Ulster Rugby respect this and have allowed it to happen. The fact someone leaves isn't necessarily an admission that they aren't "god enough".

I am a glass half full type of person. Unfortunately we have so many glass half empty type supporters.

Stand I said clearly that I don't believe its down to luck but there has been an element of luck and things falling into place rather than things going to a defined plan.

I don't doubt the effort of the Ulster management and how much they have brought us on but that doesn't mean we can't be critical too.

Rava wrote:
I am a glass half full type of person. Unfortunately we have so many glass half empty type supporters.

Rava I believe the glass is more than half full right now but the question for me is will it be fuller or emptier next season.

At the minute I am not so sure, there are a lot of positive developments but some not so good ones in my opinion but things will become clearer over the next few weeks.

Rava wrote:Where have you read that Cheika didn't want the gig?

Geoff implied that Cheika was the preferred choice but wasn't happy with the set up with Humphreys.

rodders wrote:

Rava wrote:Where have you read that Cheika didn't want the gig?

Geoff implied that Cheika was the preferred choice but wasn't happy with the set up with Humphreys.

We could possibly say that about a few people, both players and coaches. However the system is working for us so its better we have a partnership working together that apart.
I'll wait for a while before judging Anscombe though.

Have we had a bit of luck - sure but we have had a bucket load of good judgement too.

8th in a 10 league sweating on HC qualification to HC finalists inside 3 years is success by any rational measure.

I think we have more forward planning now than we ever have. We have a commitment to home grown talent taking over in the next 2/3 years. In a number of positions we have 3 players pencilled in to be the squad players for 2014/15. That obviously will change but it is forward planning unlike anything that has gone before.

Also lets be totally clear we are getting the ground rebuilt because they trust Logan/Humphreys to run the club - if Mike Reid had still been here they may well have said no and if they had said yes we would not have got our act together to get an approved planning submission agreed. If Mike Reid had still been in charge there would have been no new ground.

Rodders I believe we have exceeded everyone's expectations this season and I believe we overachieved last season.
It will take the new regime a bit of time to bed in but I think we can have reasonable expectations for next year. As always a lot will depend on the HC Draw but we should be there or thereabouts in the Rabo again.

I said Cheika was offered the roll but said no.

The reasons why he said no is a guess.

Didn't want to work with Humphreys
Didn't want to put an emphasis on youth
Didn't like the salary
Didn't like the weather

Who knows

I would not be too exercised by it

Peel said no we got Pienaer
Rush said no we got Wannenberg

lets see how it pans out. We have got a man committed to the way Ulster want to do things - maybe Cheika would have been a square peg in a round hole.

geoff998rugby wrote:Horua and Nagusa were before the present regime so cannot be layed at their door. The previous regime Reid/Williams was a joke.

We did get a big slice of luck re Rush and Peel but that still doesn't detract from the credit for signing Pienaer and taking a chance on Wannenberg (and at the time it was a chance)

D'Arcy was brought in when Cunningham got injured.
The fact he has done so well is a credit to the scouting of the management.

Emerick was a big disappointment but the key thing is that as soon as this was realized he was ditched.

I do not think that the present management can be anything but praised for they way the squad have been managed. We have gone from 8th in a 10 team league and sweating on HC qualification to HC finalist in 3 years - success by any measure. Especially as we could be going into next year with only 3 players who have played International rugby for someone other than Ireland i.e. largely a home grown outfit.

Humphreys was part of the Reid/Williams regime as Operations Director. I'm not saying the signings of Horua/Nagusa/D'Arcy were wrong, just that they were done in hope they would perform at a level they hadn't been tried before. Some work out and some don't.
Many would lay the credit for the recruitment of Pienaar and Wanneburg at Muller's feet, but obviously Humphreys should take some credit for that as well. The point was that they weren't well thought out recruitment targets and the reason to recruit an 8 and 9 was in reaction to Boss and Horua leaving. Was there any succession plan?
Regarding D'Arcy, he was a reactive signing when they realised McIlwaine wasn't ready. Hardly surprising as David was dropped in at the deep end without any experience and his confidence was crushed. If the management think D'Arcy has done so well why did they sign Terblanche?

Look I broadly agree that Humphreys has made more good decisions than bad ones and he is the right man to take Ulster forward, but he is also far from perfect and infallible hyperbole is way off the mark. It is also great that he has secured the important signatures of the Ulster players already here and is bringing Wilson and Bowe back. Whatever way you looka at it, elevating Jackson to be the first choice no.10 is based on promise rather than evidence, and that is a leap of faith by the management. I absolutely hope Jackson rises like Gilroy rather than sinks like McIlwaine.

Third time unlucky?

I'm not judging Anscombe or criticising the system. I'm just pointing out that its another decision that wasn't exactly to plan.

rodders wrote:I'm not judging Anscombe or criticising the system. I'm just pointing out that its another decision that wasn't exactly our to plan.

Fixed that Rodders

I think Darcy is fantastic. Payne/Terblanche is however an improvement. We need players of the quality of Darcy to be happy to be part of the system. You could also ask why Bowe was signed when we have Trimble?

Where are the areas where we have a backup who is more than up to the job if called upon?

Darcy
Spence
Bowe/Trimble/Gilroy
Marshall
Stevenson (just)
McAllistar
Macklin/Fitzpatrick have also done a fine job lately.

We need players like the above standard to be able to back up 10. NOC isnt on a par with the above list. BUT we havnt much choice. Just be thankful we have a versatile quality 9 and a backup 9 who has managed to save our bacon more than once.

Things could be worse!

rodders wrote:I'm not judging Anscombe or criticising the system. I'm just pointing out that its another decision that wasn't exactly to plan.

Or you can say we had a plan and Cheika didn't want to buy into that plan so the job went to someone else who is into the plan.
As has been shown no one is bigger than the club.

Again a number of points at variance with reality

The Great Aukster wrote: Humphreys was part of the Reid/Williams regime as Operations Director. I'm not saying the signings of Horua/Nagusa/D'Arcy were wrong, just that they were done in hope they would perform at a level they hadn't been tried before. Some work out and some don't..

Humphries had no responsibility for recruitment when Williams was in charge. Nagusa and Horua were his choices. D'Arcy was Humphries choice.

The Great Aukster wrote: Many would lay the credit for the recruitment of Pienaar and Wanneburg at Muller's feet, but obviously Humphreys should take some credit for that as well. The point was that they weren't well thought out recruitment targets and the reason to recruit an 8 and 9 was in reaction to Boss and Horua leaving. Was there any succession plan?.

You have the Boss situation the wrong way round. Ulster decided to recruit a 9 and it was in reaction to that that Boss decided to leave.
Horua leaving was totally irrelevant to Wannenberg signing. He hardly played and anyway there was a years gap in which Henry started at 8, Pollock started at 7 and Diack was back up.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Regarding D'Arcy, he was a reactive signing when they realised McIlwaine wasn't ready. Hardly surprising as David was dropped in at the deep end without any experience and his confidence was crushed. If the management think D'Arcy has done so well why did they sign Terblanche? .

D'Arcy was signed when it was realized Cunningham was not returning. McIlwaine did not come into the equation.
Terblanche was signed when Payne got injured for 2 reasons he is a better player and you cannot play a season with only 1 15 on your books.

.

The Great Aukster wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Horua and Nagusa were before the present regime so cannot be layed at their door. The previous regime Reid/Williams was a joke.

We did get a big slice of luck re Rush and Peel but that still doesn't detract from the credit for signing Pienaer and taking a chance on Wannenberg (and at the time it was a chance)

D'Arcy was brought in when Cunningham got injured.
The fact he has done so well is a credit to the scouting of the management.

Emerick was a big disappointment but the key thing is that as soon as this was realized he was ditched.

I do not think that the present management can be anything but praised for they way the squad have been managed. We have gone from 8th in a 10 team league and sweating on HC qualification to HC finalist in 3 years - success by any measure. Especially as we could be going into next year with only 3 players who have played International rugby for someone other than Ireland i.e. largely a home grown outfit.

Humphreys was part of the Reid/Williams regime as Operations Director. I'm not saying the signings of Horua/Nagusa/D'Arcy were wrong, just that they were done in hope they would perform at a level they hadn't been tried before. Some work out and some don't.
Many would lay the credit for the recruitment of Pienaar and Wanneburg at Muller's feet, but obviously Humphreys should take some credit for that as well. The point was that they weren't well thought out recruitment targets and the reason to recruit an 8 and 9 was in reaction to Boss and Horua leaving. Was there any succession plan?
Regarding D'Arcy, he was a reactive signing when they realised McIlwaine wasn't ready. Hardly surprising as David was dropped in at the deep end without any experience and his confidence was crushed. If the management think D'Arcy has done so well why did they sign Terblanche?

Look I broadly agree that Humphreys has made more good decisions than bad ones and he is the right man to take Ulster forward, but he is also far from perfect and infallible hyperbole is way off the mark. It is also great that he has secured the important signatures of the Ulster players already here and is bringing Wilson and Bowe back. Whatever way you looka at it, elevating Jackson to be the first choice no.10 is based on promise rather than evidence, and that is a leap of faith by the management. I absolutely hope Jackson rises like Gilroy rather than sinks like McIlwaine.

Did Boss want to leave and so we got another 9?

I thought it was the otherway around. We were getting another 9 so Boss decided to leave, no?

And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

You are spot on Mrs P.

Like Humphreys he didn't like the idea of not being a nailed on starter

clivemcl wrote:I think Darcy is fantastic. Payne/Terblanche is however an improvement. We need players of the quality of Darcy to be happy to be part of the system. You could also ask why Bowe was signed when we have Trimble?

Where are the areas where we have a backup who is more than up to the job if called upon?

Darcy
Spence
Bowe/Trimble/Gilroy
Marshall
Stevenson (just)
McAllistar
Macklin/Fitzpatrick have also done a fine job lately.

We need players like the above standard to be able to back up 10. NOC isnt on a par with the above list. BUT we havnt much choice. Just be thankful we have a versatile quality 9 and a backup 9 who has managed to save our bacon more than once.

Things could be worse!

Stevenson has proved he is more than capable at this level. He is one of our best finds this season IMO.

Agreed for his position I would rate Stevenson above D'Arcy, Marshall and currently Macklin for theirs as quality cover.

Stevenson has been an excellent addition and to the coaching staff the call between him and Tuohy has often been a close one.

MrsP wrote:

Did Boss want to leave and so we got another 9?

I thought it was the otherway around. We were getting another 9 so Boss decided to leave, no?

Both! What precipitated the situation was that Boss had lost his central contract and Ulster weren't prepared to make up the difference, preferring instead to look for different value for money.

MrsP wrote:And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

Yes.

The point is that Ulster had no succession plan in place. They hadn't any faith that Gilroy would be able to step up.
Similarly they had no succession plan for Cunningham, so McIlwaine had to be dropped in at the deep end.

geoff998rugby wrote:Agreed for his position I would rate Stevenson above D'Arcy, Marshall and currently Macklin for theirs as quality cover.

Stevenson has been an excellent addition and to the coaching staff the call between him and Tuohy has often been a close one.

Only at times when Tuohy was match tired. At his best surely you wouldnt compare them would you?

But I do agree, he is one of the solid backups we should all be thankful are here and content (for now unlike the Boss's and iHumphs of this world).

Two different players IMO. Tuohy offers a more dynamic option, but he doesn't get through the same amount of work as Muller/Stevenson. I think Tuohy needs to play alongside one of those guys to be effective. Ryan would also be the perfect partner for Tuohy.

The Great Aukster wrote:

MrsP wrote:And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

Yes.

The point is that Ulster had no succession plan in place. They hadn't any faith that Gilroy would be able to step up.
Similarly they had no succession plan for Cunningham, so McIlwaine had to be dropped in at the deep end.

Aukster can the management win with you?

They get criticised for not having faith in Gilroy now they have faith in Jackson they are in the wrong too?

The Great Aukster wrote:

MrsP wrote:And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

Yes.

The point is that Ulster had no succession plan in place. They hadn't any faith that Gilroy would be able to step up.
Similarly they had no succession plan for Cunningham, so McIlwaine had to be dropped in at the deep end.

I don't think that is true.

I think Gilroy was injured too at the time. ? Broken hand?

MrsP wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

MrsP wrote:And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

Yes.

The point is that Ulster had no succession plan in place. They hadn't any faith that Gilroy would be able to step up.
Similarly they had no succession plan for Cunningham, so McIlwaine had to be dropped in at the deep end.

I don't think that is true.

I think Gilroy was injured too at the time. ? Broken hand?

I remember at the time it was like the whole academy took it in turns on the wing!

Emerick (a prefessional international) got one one or two starts. As we were rotating through the youngsters I was actually annoyed we didnt use Emerick. But sure look at us now, Gilroy is likely to start ahead of Trimble next season.

MrsP wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

MrsP wrote:And wasn't Emmerick only a short term injury cover when Trimble broke a thumb?

Yes.

The point is that Ulster had no succession plan in place. They hadn't any faith that Gilroy would be able to step up.
Similarly they had no succession plan for Cunningham, so McIlwaine had to be dropped in at the deep end.

I don't think that is true.

I think Gilroy was injured too at the time. ? Broken hand?

Correct so the lack of faith in Gilroy arguement is totally bogus.

The lack of succession planning was a carry over from the old regime, the current regime are putting very positive processes in palce to correct that and in most positions successfully.
I repeat D'aRcy replaced Cunningham - McIlwaine was incidental

My memory of Emerick was that he played maybe twice?

The second of those games was at the Sportsground and he tackled a Connacht player into the barrier in a very dangerous and totally un-necessary fashion and he never got to pull on a White jersey again! Just right too!

I think he is a filthy halyon!

MrsP wrote:I don't think that is true.

I think Gilroy was injured too at the time. ? Broken hand?

Sorry if I have got that wrong Mrs P. I think Gilroy was playing against Leeds with D'Arcy (who was great that day) in a pre-season, and then not seeing him for months - don't remember the broken hand.

No worries Aukster.

I could be wrong but I seem to remember Gilroy wasn't in the HEC squad because of the injury.

It's true, he broke his hand and was ruled out of the first half of the season.

Is the crisis over yet? ....

The crisis never stops with you lads

To be fair, I think people are realising that despite reaching the Heineken Cup final we still have several years of development ahead of us to really start getting to where we want to be as a club. We're enjoying this swallow but summer is a long way off.

Unfortunately we've basically used up our supply of quick fixes (high end NIQ imports). We're going to have to generate depth the hard way; by exposing young players to top flight rugby. And people are sort of balking at that because it's inherently risky. But in the long term, it's the only way we can go places. Humphreys/Logan inherited big problems on the backrow and halfbacks and whilst they can sign one or two NIQ players to patch the hole they can't wave a magic wand; we just have to develop young players into good enough options there to see us step up long term. And we have to invest heavily in our Academy structures. Thats why McLaughlin is being demoted; to a much more important job long term in my opinion.

Notch wrote:The crisis never stops with you lads

To be fair, I think people are realising that despite reaching the Heineken Cup final we still have several years of development ahead of us to really start getting to where we want to be as a club. We're enjoying this swallow but summer is a long way off.

Unfortunately we've basically used up our supply of quick fixes (high end NIQ imports). We're going to have to generate depth the hard way; by exposing young players to top flight rugby. And people are sort of balking at that because it's inherently risky. But in the long term, it's the only way we can go places. Humphreys/Logan inherited big problems on the backrow and halfbacks and whilst they can sign one or two NIQ players to patch the hole they can't wave a magic wand; we just have to develop young players into good enough options there to see us step up long term. And we have to invest heavily in our Academy structures. Thats why McLaughlin is being demoted; to a much more important job long term in my opinion.

Notch - couldn't agree more....

I'm enjoying the journey and looking forward to the destination. I've confidence in Humph & Logan in terms of their overall strategy and the individual player personnel decisions that they are taking as part of the implementation of that plan. I'm confident that McL and Longwell will successfully develop our academy talent.... but still unsure as to whether Cowboy Anscombe is the right man as head coach. Time will tell on that one, but as things stand I'm willing to trust that Humph & Logan have made the right decision on that too!!

UlsterinKildare wrote:

Notch wrote:The crisis never stops with you lads

To be fair, I think people are realising that despite reaching the Heineken Cup final we still have several years of development ahead of us to really start getting to where we want to be as a club. We're enjoying this swallow but summer is a long way off.

Unfortunately we've basically used up our supply of quick fixes (high end NIQ imports). We're going to have to generate depth the hard way; by exposing young players to top flight rugby. And people are sort of balking at that because it's inherently risky. But in the long term, it's the only way we can go places. Humphreys/Logan inherited big problems on the backrow and halfbacks and whilst they can sign one or two NIQ players to patch the hole they can't wave a magic wand; we just have to develop young players into good enough options there to see us step up long term. And we have to invest heavily in our Academy structures. Thats why McLaughlin is being demoted; to a much more important job long term in my opinion.

Notch - couldn't agree more....

I'm enjoying the journey and looking forward to the destination. I've confidence in Humph & Logan in terms of their overall strategy and the individual player personnel decisions that they are taking as part of the implementation of that plan. I'm confident that McL and Longwell will successfully develop our academy talent.... but still unsure as to whether Cowboy Anscombe is the right man as head coach. Time will tell on that one, but as things stand I'm willing to trust that Humph & Logan have made the right decision on that too!!

+1

I really hope McL is in the academy long term. He is just as important to our future as any of our young bright things coming through the ranks. Please don't go back to teaching!

On another note it is the award dinner tonight right? I'm friends with Niall Annett and Chris Cochrane on Facebook. They've been posting some well dressed pictures all night.

Awards dinner tomorrow night

I read which increasing annoyance some of the pathetic posts on the supporters site. It would appear that good old fashion bigotory is still alive and well in our little Province.
Some of the insulting vitriol that that has greeted the decision to have a game in Derry is pathetic.

Jackie Brown, UIBF, weeHughF (who seems to be a particularly unpleasant new comer) - do us a favour guys and **** off. You are a disgrace to Ulster rugby and we are better off without your sort

UAFC Geoff? I only occassionally look in to see if theres anything in the transfer rumours. So much crap talked over there its not worth even looking.

I 'm so far removed from Bigotry that I cant even figure out how bigotry came into a discussion about a game in Derry!

They dont deserve the game, they will cause trouble, its not a rugby city, Ulster should only play in Belfast, other towns are more deserving.

No shortage of total dross I'm afraid

2nd city, geographically as far from Belfast as possible. At least half the population largely uninterested in rugby. Sounds positive to me. Any more rumours on a backrow Geoff?

Other than he is NIQ I am afraid not.

What I can say is other than the FRU article I have seen or heard nothing to suggest it is Williams.

I will, probably, not get a chance to ask around until late next week unfortunately.

Geoff, was it you who said you expected the 10 signing announced this week? Do you still stand by your prediction?