Luke Fitz to leave Leinster - contract row with IRFU

First topic message reminder :

Irish Times's Gerry Thornley (aka the mouthpiece of the IRFU) writes today that there is deadlock in Luke Fitz's negotiations on a new central contract with the IRFU and that he may be heading to England or France (London Irish being mentioned as one possible destination). Fitz not very happy, it seems, at having his salary cut from 280k to 200k and IRFU not prepared to go higher for a player who at best is going to be a panel member and not part of a starting XV.

IT link - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0327/1224313955286.html

Injuries and loss of form means that Fitz has fallen well down the pecking order for Ireland and also down the pecking order for Leinster. Good form by new young players like Zebo, D Kearney, Gilroy as well as Bowe and Trimble established as Ireland's starting wings means Fitz isn't exactly in a good negotiating position and I would have thought a 200k a year two-year contract is bloody good for a player who's going to be on the fringes for Ireland in the next two years.

I feel sorry for Fitz, it's that long ago since he was the starting wing for the Lions, but injuries have hit him hard and his form as he tried to work his way back in was not great. Maybe best thing for him might be a period outside Ireland.

A player may need to be the best in their position to earn a contract sin but after that they don't seem to need to be the best in their position to be selected.

Once they are on the payroll the IRFU will move hell or highwater to accommodate a player on a central contract.

Fitzgerald performed very well in the end of season run in and summer internationals and was harshly left out of the RWC squad imo.

Which proves the point that to get a central contract you generally need to be the best performer as he is being dropped from the "inner circle."

The massive problem with that is that central contracts are locked in for 2 or 3 years. To make the assumption that Fitzgerald won't be in the "inner circle" in 2 or 3 years is foolish. Central contracts just seem to be a superfluous layer of red tape. The IRFU would be better off taking their central contract wage budget, distributing it among the provinces and agreeing with them that all Irish eligible players are included in the player management scheme.

Mickado wrote:The IRFU would be better off taking their central contract wage budget, distributing it among the provinces and agreeing with them that all Irish eligible players are included in the player management scheme.

Thats exactly what I think too. That would mean all homebased IQ players would be seen as equals and it would remove this 'team Ireland' hierarchy which has been developed over the past decade.

I think this worked in the past because we had no depth or competition for places. We were lucky if we had 20 top players. Now we have 40+ pushing for selection and its clear that certain players are nailed on for squad places, which is inexcusable if there are high performing alternatives available and the central contracted players aren't performing.

Mickado wrote: Central contracts just seem to be a superfluous layer of red tape. The IRFU would be better off taking their central contract wage budget, distributing it among the provinces and agreeing with them that all Irish eligible players are included in the player management scheme.

+1

Horgans retired lads probably deserves a thread but no time to make it. so one less option for Leinster might strenghten Fitz postion. Although Leinster do have serious depth there.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2012/0328/315343-horgan-announces-immediate-retirement/

Hi on Tom Hayes - I might agree on Tuohy !! - but then you are probably wondering how M McCarthy got there ?!?!?

I don't think he has appeared at "A" level lately ? i.e. he appears to have been nowhere in the irish set-up and I am not suggesting he was ever going to be put straight in the Irish squad but ..............

He was in the Aviva "Team of the Year" last year - and yes I know he is in his 30s etc but as a second row he will have a few years left in him - he is in addition an excellent captain - and I think every other 2nd row has been given a shot

He probably upset someone in his youth - who knows -

Every other 2nd row has been given a shot ???? - you are joking right !
We have had POC and DOC for years and if either cant make it then its their fellow 30+'s MOD and Cullen who got selected. No other player has got a look in.

Ryan is the first newbie in the 2nd row in years

Tuohy, Toner, Stevenson haven't been given a decent shot and they are all in their mid 20's. To play Hayes in front of them, and others, is bonkers imv.

..... Hey hang on a minute...Croyman have you just joined?? Welcome sir

roddersm wrote:..... Hey hang on a minute...Croyman have you just joined?? Welcome sir

Off topic I know, but who cares. And at the other end of the spectrum, I see that our esteemed refereeing correspondent Red Stag is rapidly closing on his 10,000th post on v2 - up to 9,955 at latest post on this thread.

Where u get the time man, I dunno byt v2 wouldn't be the same without u.

Brennomac, I work in a rugby marketing job which requires me to be clued in to the goings on in the rugby world.

What a bleedin cool job!!!!

Yea its a nice one alright to be fair. Forums provide a great inside as to what way rugby fans are actually thinking and therefore how likely they are to buy our products.

Greedy Modern Players!

Stag-

I hate you, just in case you'd forgotten like!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag-

I hate you, just in case you'd forgotten like!

I know

I know where he works - I wouldn't do it

We wont get into that Geoff

agreed Stag. What is said in private remains private

Ugh ???

I meant Toner and Co had at least had a go on the "A"s ?? Don't recall Hayes having a bash at any level lately ?? (think he was on some of the under age sides) - I know like most all of the Irish squad second row is a life long posting (POC and DOC what could be simpler) - as they used to say in the 1970s about the Irish side - "it's harder to get off it than on it" --- thus all the trauma over Fitz - he's pretty unheard of - one of the chosen few who has actually been dropped !!! - record breaking really

I feel OK about promoting Hayes as I am not a natural Munster fan so I have no bias with him - but despite his Munster background I have to say every time I see him interviewed he comes across as being a pretty together intelligent sort of guy - and the press etc over here voted him of the best two Second Rows in the Aviva last year

Whereas no-one here would really know much about McCarthy - ex-Newcastle a side destined for the drop having been second bottom last year (McCarty's origin)

the IRFU will ruin leinster...not only by letting players like fitzy go but these new stupid rules aswell

If you thing the level of representative honours that the likes Tuohy and Toner have been awarded means we have given them a full opportunity to show what they can do you follow a different sport from me.

Fitzgerald could have stayed but he was demanding a salary up there with the top 8 or so Irish played players - sorry his performances dont warrant that.

He walked he wasn't pushed

He hasn’t done anything yet Geoff.

Bloody agents are ruining the game.

Fair point - but to stay he will have to take a pay cut

True, Leinster would pay him x and the IRFU would top that up, if there is no central contract Leinster can’t afford to keep him.

I just think the central contract thing is starting to do harm at this stage, O’Brien can’t have one because Leamy is on one, but Leamy is nowhere near the test team. what if O’Brien’s contract was up this year.

I think people forget how good a player Fitzgerald is, he was sensational at the start of the season. When fit hes easily one of the best backs in the country and with Horgan retiring and BOD in his twilight year, hes one of the few genuinely creative outside backs we have.

No one wants to take a pay cut so good luck to him, I just hope he doesn't burn any bridges with the IRFU.

I think for him he'd do well with a different club for a few years, I think he'd be a guy who'd come back a bit more mature and stable. Maybe he will be able to focus on one position while there and then come back to us a better player.

He was very good around November/December.

He is a player I always thought would go abroad. Never really crossed my mind that he wouldn't for some reason.

Mickado wrote:True, Leinster would pay him x and the IRFU would top that up, if there is no central contract Leinster can’t afford to keep him.

I just think the central contract thing is starting to do harm at this stage, O’Brien can’t have one because Leamy is on one, but Leamy is nowhere near the test team. what if O’Brien’s contract was up this year.

Leamy has a central contract and SOB does not? Mother Of Divine... The whole deal needs revising or this will happen more and more. I agree with your earlier idea. Give an allocated pot of shekels to the provinces and let them sort it out. The IRFU must ease its hand off the tiller and let the provinces make the calls. They know who is performing, improving, is good enough - to put forward for Ireland. The IRFU and the provinces could monitor all the players constantly. I mean look where Colm Murray came from in a flash. Felix Jones, POM, Ryan & McFadden too. We need to nail down these lads contracts and stop prolonging the likes of Leamy, Jennings, DOC, Darcy. Paddy Wallace, et al, at international level. Its arse-about-face. We need a more fluid and workable system, to suit all parties concerned.

Full and open consulatation with the provinces 1st. Then make a plan.

Mickado wrote:True, Leinster would pay him x and the IRFU would top that up, if there is no central contract Leinster can’t afford to keep him.

I just think the central contract thing is starting to do harm at this stage, O’Brien can’t have one because Leamy is on one, but Leamy is nowhere near the test team. what if O’Brien’s contract was up this year.

Are you sure about that? I'd say O'Brien would have been in line for David Wallace's contract, which is the position he is playing in and probably worth more than the bench one denis leamy has.

tbh, I don't like players being thrown to the wolves just because they are out for a while with an injury they have picked up doing their job.

Which is why extra money should go to the Provinces to allocate rather than central contracts.

I think describing an offer of 200,000 a year as being thrown to the wolves is a bit over dramatic though. As things stand what he is currently on is not justified in the current climate given his importance to the Irish team.

Yes there are other anomalies but Fitzpatrick on 280,000 would make it even more distorted.

That fella Fitzpatrick is brilliant though. I rate him highly... Give him 300k and his travel expenses.

Agree with Sin. Getting injured is part and parcel of the game. So they should be protected.

I think Fitz is worth it tbh. He is one of our stand out players. A little bit special if given the time to come back.

God knows we need inventive players.

geoff998rugby wrote:Which is why extra money should go to the Provinces to allocate rather than central contracts.

I think describing an offer of 200,000 a year as being thrown to the wolves is a bit over dramatic though. As things stand what he is currently on is not justified in the current climate given his importance to the Irish team.

Yes there are other anomalies but Fitzpatrick on 280,000 would make it even more distorted.

I was referring to players who are injured at the moment like Leamy or Wallace (if he was a bit young) who are injured or are coming back from injury who have given great service over their careers.

For instance, I'm glad that Munster didn't just discard Dougie Howlett (despite his age and injury).

Luke is a different kettle of fish though. He has just had a minor injury.

Hope he stays though, but his agent Fintan Drury is used to playing hardball with soccer clubs.

Leamy hasn't been international standard since 2007 and should not have an IRFU contract when he isn't good enough to play. He makes the squads ahead of better players like Jennings so the IRFU can get their moneys worth. He's not the only one.

Over 30's like Wallace shouldn't only be getting 1 year deals anyway, no matter how good they are. Players can grow old very quick hence overseas players only get 1 year deals, so why do the IRFU think Irish players are different?

The central contracts should be scrapped and the best players should be picked.

Worth what though - the 280,000 brackets is currently populated by key Irish players.
Fitzgerald is not in that bracket - there are Irish regular starters on less than that.

Regarding injured players - I think that should be a provincial matter not a central contract issue.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:True, Leinster would pay him x and the IRFU would top that up, if there is no central contract Leinster can’t afford to keep him.

I just think the central contract thing is starting to do harm at this stage, O’Brien can’t have one because Leamy is on one, but Leamy is nowhere near the test team. what if O’Brien’s contract was up this year.

Are you sure about that? I'd say O'Brien would have been in line for David Wallace's contract, which is the position he is playing in and probably worth more than the bench one denis leamy has.

tbh, I don't like players being thrown to the wolves just because they are out for a while with an injury they have picked up doing their job.

Sin, I don't think anyone should be thrown to the wolves either. I think the whole central contracts thing is just a bit messy. I used Leamy as an example of a player who is by all accounts in the "inner circle" because he's got a central contract, he's been very unlucky with injuries and he shouldn't be discarded. But why he should be a level above other backrows (in the eyes of the IRFU) in the first place is beyond me.

If the IRFU gave our their contract budget to each of the provinces and told them that all Irish eligible players are being looked at for international duty and will be subject to the player management scheme then Leamy might well be still on the same wage, he might not, but he will have to play his way back into the Irish team like anyone else, he doesn't have a leg up and he doesn't have the IRFU willing him to win back his position to justify their investment.

Leamy is just an example, the same could be said for Paddy Wallace or Jamie Heaslip.

geoff998rugby wrote:Which is why extra money should go to the Provinces to allocate rather than central contracts.

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck easter weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

Mickado wrote:
Leamy is just an example, the same could be said for Paddy Wallace or Jamie Heaslip.

Have you watched Paddy lately? He's the opposite...was rubbish now he's awesome, whereas the other two were awesome now they're rubbish......

Sin é wrote:

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck next weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

roddersm wrote:

Mickado wrote:
Leamy is just an example, the same could be said for Paddy Wallace or Jamie Heaslip.

Have you watched Paddy lately? He's the opposite...was rubbish now he's awesome, whereas the other two were awesome now they're rubbish......

Leamy was carrying a long term injury, not rubbish. Paddy Wallace has also been injured a lot.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck next weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

I have Rodders, but that’s not the point. He, like any other player, should have to play his way into the Irish team on merit. Not be picked because he’s the 3rd choice out half.

The abandoned game in Paris, Sexton took a knock, ROG was going to start, Wallace was going to be on the bench. Surely Madigan was the next best option, but Wallace got called up because he got a central contract a few years back.

As for which teams get the most central contract money, well who gets it now? I’d venture that Munster have more centrally contracted players than Leinster, so they probably get more of it than the rest right now.

As I have mentioned elsewhere the three main Provinces get, roughly, the same amount of money via Central Contracts and with assistance with Overseas players. Some get more via Central Contract and some get more via Overseas Contract. This has the advantage of balancing things out if one team is weaker than the other. So the issue of dividing up money doesn't arise - just treat them equally.
They can always pull the plug to some extent if they believe the Province is being badly run. They did this, rightly imv, when Mike Reid was Ulster CEO.

As to foreigners coming in - any new player who is NIE can be blocked by Dublin so that could still be managed. Dublin still has financial control over the Provinces that extends way beyond Central Contracts and NIQ players. Ulster are currently asking Dublin for permission to sign a backrow forward for next year. If Dublin say no we wont get one.

roddersm wrote:Leamy hasn't been international standard since 2007 and should not have an IRFU contract when he isn't good enough to play. He makes the squads ahead of better players like Jennings so the IRFU can get their moneys worth. He's not the only one.

Over 30's like Wallace shouldn't only be getting 1 year deals anyway, no matter how good they are. Players can grow old very quick hence overseas players only get 1 year deals, so why do the IRFU think Irish players are different?

The central contracts should be scrapped and the best players should be picked.

Leamy was pretty awesome in 2008. Had a shoulder op after the tour to NZ & Aus and has had a lot of injuries since then. He makes the bench ahead of players like Jennings because he can cover Heaslip. Not too many international 8 knocking around up to recently.

Wallace has been getting 1 year contracts. And lets not forget, it was on Ireland duty he got his last injury.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck next weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

What does that mean?We don't have any injury cover for Leo Cullen seeing as he's fit.

Mickado wrote:I have Rodders, but that’s not the point. He, like any other player, should have to play his way into the Irish team on merit. Not be picked because he’s the 3rd choice out half.

The abandoned game in Paris, Sexton took a knock, ROG was going to start, Wallace was going to be on the bench. Surely Madigan was the next best option, but Wallace got called up because he got a central contract a few years back.

As for which teams get the most central contract money, well who gets it now? I’d venture that Munster have more centrally contracted players than Leinster, so they probably get more of it than the rest right now.

Madigan missed all the world cup prep. work. It would have been crazy to try and integrate him into a team with a couple of days notice.

central contract top-ups:
Leinster: Healy, Ross, Heaslip, Sexton, BOD, Kearney (6) Luke ?
Munster: POC, DOC, Ryan, Leamy, ROG, Earls (6) Wallace ?
Ulster: Best, Ferris, Wallace, Trimble, Bowe (5) Court ?

Evens out pretty fairly. Ulster have got extra money from the IRFU for their SA contingent.

Each of the provinces would have one or two top tier players on big money (BOD, POC & Ferris).

edit: not sure if Court has an IRFU contract or not?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck next weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

What does that mean?We don't have any injury cover for Leo Cullen seeing as he's fit.

Listening to the sports news on rte last night, Brad Thorn was described as Leo Cullen's injury cover

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Mickado wrote:
Leamy is just an example, the same could be said for Paddy Wallace or Jamie Heaslip.

Have you watched Paddy lately? He's the opposite...was rubbish now he's awesome, whereas the other two were awesome now they're rubbish......

Leamy was carrying a long term injury, not rubbish. Paddy Wallace has also been injured a lot.

Nope he was injury free last season in the build up to the RWC and he still wasn't up to much. Agreed he had a good spell in 2008 but this is 2012 and hes nowhere near international standard. Hes been getting a leg up by the IRFU into the squads for years in an area where there are better players.

Its not Leamy's fault, because he was top class a few years ago, but he's a perfect example of whats wrong about the central contracts.

O'Callaghan is the same now. The IRFU are squeezing their moneys worth out of him when there are at least 3 better performing second rows available - Ryan, Tuohy, Toner and possibly McCarthy too.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

How would you divide up the central contract money then between the provinces? Would they all get an equal extra amount. How would the IRFU stop Munster bringing in Brad Thorn and leave DOC & Ryan on the bench? (It will be interesting to see if Thorn starts for Leinster on Sat. instead of Cullen or Toner, neither of whom are on central contracts).

Central contracts help the provinces to pay for cover when their internationals are away or being rested. For instance, Munster would be rightly stuck next weekend if POC & Ryan were out with the HCup & semis b+i cup on at the same time.

By telling them that if they do that then their funding will be cut,the IRFU can put very strict conditions on any money they give out.

We'll see what happens in the next couple of weeks what happens with Leo's injury cover

What does that mean?We don't have any injury cover for Leo Cullen seeing as he's fit.

Listening to the sports news on rte last night, Brad Thorn was described as Leo Cullen's injury cover

Well that's wrong. He's Stephen Sykes short term replacement. They both played together last week.

Court does not have aCentral Contract

Also not all Central Contracts are of the same value i.e Bowe' is more than Trimbles'

Lets just get something straight here.

The IRFU pay an amount to each centrally contracted player. If central contracts were abolished tomorrow they could still give each province the amount they were giving to the players and the province would pay the difference in wages. i.e. everyone gets the exact same amount they were contracted for, and the exact same amount of money is still in play. the provinces would then have a limit on how many players they can have in a particular wage bracket (we’ll say 6 as that appears to be the amount that Leinster and Munster have).

Same amount of money being paid to players, same amount of money being given out by the IRFU, same control on players game time, same restrictions in place about signing non Irish players. Where’s the flaw in this plan?