Youngs cited

by Portnoy Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/162043.html

A truly problematical one this.

Maybe someone can repost a clip.

[ed: Here's one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF7AiDjPjsU

by beshocked Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:16 pm

Equo Troiano wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Complete non story. This isn't a ban. Youngs did nothing wrong, certainly not to the highly esteemed Jeff Blackett.

Whatever you think, Blackett's opinion is the only one that matters. The matter has now been dealt with.

Would hardly expect a Leicester fan to think otherwise! Laugh

At least Youngs didn't land a punch. Might have got 2 weeks if he did. Laugh

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:18 pm

I agree with BigTrev that holding players down/preventing them competing for the ball needs to be looked at. Ferris is a prime example of this type of thing and then pleads with the officials when players take action to stop him doing it. Admittedly he didn’t deserve the gouging from Attoub and Dupuy, but he is one player who irritates the hell out of me.

Also I don’t understand the hysteria over what people have called a ridiculously short ban of a week for Youngs. The panel explained the decision, which seems perfectly fair given all the circumstances. Simon Shaw (who had fairly recent previous for this offence at the time) only got two weeks for his knee drop on Fourie du Preez on the 2009 Lions tour.

Get some perspective folks.

by Equo Troiano Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:51 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I agree with BigTrev that holding players down/preventing them competing for the ball needs to be looked at. Ferris is a prime example of this type of thing and then pleads with the officials when players take action to stop him doing it. Admittedly he didn’t deserve the gouging from Attoub and Dupuy, but he is one player who irritates the hell out of me.

Also I don’t understand the hysteria over what people have called a ridiculously short ban of a week for Youngs. The panel explained the decision, which seems perfectly fair given all the circumstances. Simon Shaw (who had fairly recent previous for this offence at the time) only got two weeks for his knee drop on Fourie du Preez on the 2009 Lions tour.

Get some perspective folks.

+1

All the sanctimonious claptrrap coming from some jealous of Tigers generally, is boring.

by aitchw Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:40 pm

The amount of off the ball interference is getting ridiculous and needs a few YCs handing out every time it's spotted. It goes on way too much and will only get worse leading to more frustrated outbursts of this sort. Refs and ARs all need to get a grip. It spoils games and stiffles the rugby.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:55 pm

Plenty of commentators have said that challenges by Goode (for which he was sent off), Fa'asavalu on Heathcote and Tu'ifua on Evans were worse.

They were certainly more violent. Cases against all 3 were dismissed.

I am not sure that Blackett was right, nor do I think that the 1 week ban for Youngs was right. When I read the verdicts however they make sense.

Finally, almost every team in the AP has had players cited and cleared by Blackett this season. Perhaps, along with the citing officers, he is too lenient - but he is consistent.

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:56 pm

Oh and Beshocked, every time you resort to childish condescension it makes it harder to take you seriously when you start discussing things in your less rabid mode.

by Equo Troiano Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:07 pm

He has a less rabid mode?

by **LondonTiger** Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:14 pm

Equo Troiano wrote:He has a less rabid mode?

Yes. Though at times he is as one-eyed in his support of Sarrries and failure to see their inadequacies as certain Tigers fans on her are.

by kingjohn7 Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:16 pm

Agree with beshocked, complete non-story. Maybe a yellow but what is he supposed to do when being held back? Throw his hands up in the air? Cry? roll around on the floor as if his legs have been blown off? Sorry thats in a league sponsored by Barclays.
Lets be honest, refs are NEVER going to be able to stop players cheating, so its up to the other players. If you are going to get a smack in the chops for obstructing someone then you prob wont do it next time.

by beshocked Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:33 pm

LondonTiger please give me examples. Oh also you should look closer to home. Get your own house in order first.

I do genuinely believe this ban is a non story.This was a low end incident. If Youngs had connected with his punches then the incident would be much more serious. As he didn't a long ban was not going to happen.

Some would argue he should get 3-4 weeks but due to Young's good discipline record up till now and provocation it was reduced.

As you know I am not a big fan of Jeff Blackett but in this case he's well within his rights to do what he has.

by Equo Troiano Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:38 pm

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger please give me examples. Oh also you should look closer to home. Get your own house in order first.

I do genuinely believe this ban is a non story.This was a low end incident. If Youngs had connected with his punches then the incident would be much more serious. As he didn't a long ban was not going to happen.

Some would argue he should get 3-4 weeks but due to Young's good discipline record up till now and provocation it was reduced.

As you know I am not a big fan of Jeff Blackett but in this case he's well within his rights to do what he has.

"At least Youngs didn't land a punch. Might have got 2 weeks if he did"

You were suggesting that Blackett's connections/percieved favouritism with regards to Leicester meant that Youngs was always going to get off lightly. And you ruddy well know it too.

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:49 pm

Beschocked, it really doesn't matter whether Youngs was succesful in swinging a punch.

The law.10.4(a) Striking another Player with a hand, arm or fist
LE – 2 weeks
MR – 5 weeks
TE – 8+ weeks
52 weeks

the citing commissioner can use mitigating factors to lighten the ban, but swinging a punch is swinging a punch.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:57 pm

biltongbek wrote:Beschocked, it really doesn't matter whether Youngs was succesful in swinging a punch.

The law.10.4(a) Striking another Player with a hand, arm or fist
LE – 2 weeks
MR – 5 weeks
TE – 8+ weeks
52 weeks

the citing commissioner can use mitigating factors to lighten the ban, but swinging a punch is swinging a punch.

Surely it does matter if a player is successful in landing a punch??

The law states "striking a player"......swinging and missing is not striking surely?

by **Biltong** Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Perhaps so SGT Pooly, but when holding a player down with your knee on his chest the intention is clear.

by beshocked Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:59 pm

I said he might get 2 weeks. Then again he might not. One of his team mates in the past got 2 weeks for punching an opponent. Then again another got 5 weeks.

Obviously it's based on a case by case basis.

by Equo Troiano Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:00 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Beschocked, it really doesn't matter whether Youngs was succesful in swinging a punch.

The law.10.4(a) Striking another Player with a hand, arm or fist
LE – 2 weeks
MR – 5 weeks
TE – 8+ weeks
52 weeks

the citing commissioner can use mitigating factors to lighten the ban, but swinging a punch is swinging a punch.

Surely it does matter if a player is successful in landing a punch??

The law states "striking a player"......swinging and missing is not striking surely?

Well I don't know if he did miss actually, I thought that it showed clearly that although Youngs's fists didn't connect fully with Gibson's head, they certainly scuffed the side of his head, and so made contact.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:01 pm

Intention or not, he missed (embarrassingly).

I've not read the report but understand he was cited for the knee alone.

by Portnoy Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:06 pm

Is the report out?

Where can I read it?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:09 pm

beshocked wrote:LondonTiger please give me examples. Oh also you should look closer to home. Get your own house in order first.

I do genuinely believe this ban is a non story.This was a low end incident. If Youngs had connected with his punches then the incident would be much more serious. As he didn't a long ban was not going to happen.

Some would argue he should get 3-4 weeks but due to Young's good discipline record up till now and provocation it was reduced.

As you know I am not a big fan of Jeff Blackett but in this case he's well within his rights to do what he has.

is the right answer

by Equo Troiano Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:24 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
beshocked wrote:LondonTiger please give me examples. Oh also you should look closer to home. Get your own house in order first.

I do genuinely believe this ban is a non story.This was a low end incident. If Youngs had connected with his punches then the incident would be much more serious. As he didn't a long ban was not going to happen.

Some would argue he should get 3-4 weeks but due to Young's good discipline record up till now and provocation it was reduced.

As you know I am not a big fan of Jeff Blackett but in this case he's well within his rights to do what he has.

is the right answer

After backpedalling on policy faster than a Liberal Democrat with a chance of Government.

by beshocked Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:45 am

Equo Troiano how is it backpeddling? In my first post I said this was a non story. My stance has not changed.

by Equo Troiano Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:01 pm

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano how is it backpeddling? In my first post I said this was a non story. My stance has not changed.

by eirebilly Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:09 pm

I am suprised by only a one week ban to be honest. For me it wasnt so much the punch(s) but the dropping of the knee. I really dislike that and hope that with this lucky escape that he reels himself in because he is normally a very good and fair player.

by Equo Troiano Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:18 pm

I hope Gibson realises he's been equally lucky. Referees are probably going to start yellow carding cheats fairly shortly. There's been enough attention drawn to it of late.

by eirebilly Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:21 pm

Gibson wont see himself as being lucky, that sort of thing goes on in every match. Youngs was silly to react the way he did and is lucky with only a one week ban.

That said, i would like to see the players (in this case Gibson) also being cited in these situations. I despise all that holding onto player garbage, it has no place in the game.

by Portnoy Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:27 pm

I'm beginning to think that there should be a citings sticky.

by HammerofThunor Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:04 pm

The knee was never going to be more than LE and with one week mitigation that's a 2 week ban. Given that Leicester have an off weekend it wouldn't have mattered anyway (the right and wrong of that is a seperate issue).

by Portnoy Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:31 am

Has anyone found a trace of the written report yet? I haven't.

by Portnoy Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:12 pm

Portnoy wrote:Has anyone found a trace of the written report yet? I haven't.

Reprint

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:07 am

Not being one to let things go, I've been harrying the RFU to publish the on Youngs' full written citing report.

I have finally received this response

Dear Mr **********,

I apologise for the delay in responding to your e-mail request. I was out of the office for most of last week and had limited e-mail access.

Please find attached a copy of the judgment which will be made available on the RFU website in due course.

Kind regards,

Rebecca

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:11 am

RUGBY FOOTBALL UNION
DISCIPLINARY HEARING
At: Holiday Inn, Epsom Downs
On: Monday 2 April 2012
JUDGMENT.
Player: Ben Youngs Club: Leicester Tigers
Match: London Irish v Leicester Tigers
Venue: Madjeski Stadium Date of match: 25th March 2012
Panel: Jeff Blackett (Chairman), Robert Horner, Peter Budge
Secretary: Rebecca Morgan
Attending: The Player.
Simon Cohen (Team Manager Leicester Tigers)
Matt O’Connor (Coach Leicester Tigers)
Preliminary Issues
1. The Player did not object to the composition or the constitution of the Panel.
2. The Player admitted that he struck an opponent in the 39th minute of the first half of the match between London Irish and Leicester Tigers.
The Citing Complaint
3. The citing report stated:
“With a minute remaining of the first half, Leicester are on the attack just inside the London Irish half. Play is with a Leicester attacking line out on the far side of the pitch, the ball is caught by Lock George Skivington at the front of the line and passed back to his scrum half, no 9 Ben Youngs.
Youngs is caught in possession and tackled by the London Irish No 8 Jamie Gibson who brings the player to ground by holding onto Youngs left leg, a ruck is formed and the ball is secured by Leicester. Play continues and the ruck breaks up. Youngs attempts to get to his feet, Gibson at this point is laying on his back on the flor, the No 8 can clearly be seen holding onto the scrum half’s left leg preventing him from following play. Youngs reacts badly, he stands up and grabs at Givson’s face with both hands. The scrum half then forcefully knee strikes the No 8 in the chest with his right knee before aiming two glancing punches at the left side of Gibson’s face. Youngs is then tackled and knocked to
the floor by his opposing scrum half Darren Allinson who has taken exception to Youngs actions. AT the time of the incident the referee’s assistant, Roy Maybank, is standing directly above Gibson and Youngs and calls the foul play.
The referee then warns both players and awards a penalty to London Irish. Gibson is uninjured, he doesn’t require medical attention and continues to play.
I later spoke to the Referee, Dean Richards, who had nothing further to add to his on-field conversation with assistant Roy Maybank (recorded in the citing report), but confirmed that neither of them had seen the knee strike by Youngs.”
4. The Panel viewed the DVD footage of the incident which reflected the citing report. Gibson held on to the Player for a considerable amount of time, and it appears that the Player became frustrated because he could not get away. In our view his downward punch, described as glancing by the citing officer, actually did not make contact and the Player actually hit the ground.
5. The Player said that he was tackled and play moved away from him but Gibson would not let him go and held him by his leg. He tried to extricate his leg but could not so he dropped down onto Gibson, his knee making contact with Gibson’s stomach. At the same time he punched the ground near his face to warn him. He said he intentionally did not make contact with his fist.
Submissions on behalf or the Player
6. The Player is 22 years old. He has been a professional rugby player for 5 years and has played 85 times for Leicester. He has 22 international caps for England. He has no disciplinary offences recorded on his record.
7. Mr Cohen said that the club held a disciplinary hearing and suspended the Player for one week. As a result he missed their match against Worcester on 30 March. He submitted that this offence was at the Low End of the scale of seriousness and asked that, in view of the compelling mitigating factors, the Panel should endorse the suspension awarded by the club but not add any further sanction. In particular, Mr Cohen said that although the Player is fairly experienced, this is his first season as an established international and thus a target. He is still learning to cope with that status and attention. Mr O’Connor attested to the Player’s good record and said that he was highly disciplined both on and off the pitch and this offending was borne out of frustration.
Sanction
8. The panel undertook an assessment of the seriousness of the players’ conduct. Applying the criteria we determined that it was at the Low End of the scale of seriousness – we accept there was no contact with the alleged punch and the knee drop was very light. It caused no injury and had no effect on the opponent or the game. We also took into account the severe provocation from Gibson who continued to hold the Player illegally thereby preventing him from returning to the action.. The Low End entry point is three weeks suspension. There were no aggravating features and all
the standard mitigating factors were present which would entitle the Player to the benefit of 50% discount . We referred to Regulation 19.11.13 and RFU Guidance Note 2 (Appendix 5 to Regulation 19) and considered there were exceptional circumstances. The mitigating features were compelling but in particular the Player’s response was caused solely because he was held illegally. In those circumstances we discount the sanction from the entry point by 66%.
9. The Player is therefore suspended from 28 March (the date suspended by his club) until 4 April He is free to play again on 5 April.
Costs
10. Costs of £500.00 are awarded against the Player.
Signed: Jeff Blackett Date: 2nd April 2012
Chairman

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:12 am

I'm still disappointed that Allison's subsequent actions were not considered...

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:21 am

Anyway, as it is not yet on the RFU website, that's a scoop for 606v2.

by eirebilly Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:23 am

Well done Portnoy Very Happy

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:28 am

It beggars belief what the disciplinary panel believe.

Youngs claims he deliberately missed with the punches, intentionally punching the ground to warn Gibson.

This is akin to some of the bollix that they believed from Calum Clark. Verdict aside, as that is a different issue that has been done to death, I am shocked that Blackett seems to believe whatever he is told by players who have been cited.

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:30 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:It beggars belief what the disciplinary panel believe.

Youngs claims he deliberately missed with the punches, intentionally punching the ground to warn Gibson.

This is akin to some of the bollix that they believed from Calum Clark. Verdict aside, as that is a different issue that has been done to death, I am shocked that Blackett seems to believe whatever he is told by players who have been cited.

Are you equally appalled that Allinson meted out his own retribution Oz?

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:35 am

No I am not appalled that on seeing a player on top of his team mate punching him Allinson dived in and tackled him off.

We are never going to agree on the incident Portnoy, so it's not worth continuing that discussion.

My point here is not about Youngs specifically, it is about the farcical nature of the citing and disciplinary processes.

by Equo Troiano Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 am

I don't believe it is farcical in this particular case. Clearly the Citing Commission took Gibson's cheating/provocation into account. Gibson ought to have received an equal punishment in my opinion. Its about time that officials cracked down on this blatant cheating. Some teams would be a lot further up the table if they spent as much time playing rugby as they did trying to stop the other team from doing same.

by eirebilly Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:55 am

Sorry but provocation and cheating are never a good defence to use against violent conduct and should not be taken into consideration for Youngs reaction.

I agree that players (in this case Gibson) should have their part in these incidents investigated and acted on as well though.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:56 am

So you believe Youngs assertion that he deliberately missed with the punches?

by Portnoy Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:06 am

I don't Oz - not for one second.

But the frustration of the moment is the one thing for which he was cited.
Does that justify Allinson's equally instantaneous retaliation?

To my mind the perfect judgement would have resulted in a 1-week ban for Youngs, Gibson and Allinson.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:13 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:So you believe Youngs assertion that he deliberately missed with the punches?

Ozzy, I doubt very much that the panel believed that Youngs had fired off warning blows and had actually intended to hit him. Problem is though he didn't seem to make much contact and it's stated that he actually missed rather than hitting him.

I don't think Youngs obvious bending of the truth comes into the equation really it's just a bit of a joke comment.

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