The Wheels Religion of Welsh Rugby

It's something of a cliche, the link between Rugby and Religion in Wales. 

When Max Boyce wrote his song about the England Trip in the 70's Welsh fans could sing hymns and they could sing arias. Hands up who knows what an aria is...?

Even then though Max sang about "10,000 Instant Christians". The fans sang the hymns of their childhood, but had turned their back on the religion which gave them that cultural resource.

In the industrial era Christianity boomed in Wales. The Methodist Revival of the early 1900s saw Rugby clubs temporarily disbanded as players forsook "chwant peldroed" or "the lust for football". A century later it is unimaginable that Christianity could hold such sway over sporting matters.

That Rugby is often claimed to be a quasi religion is a source of pride for many in Wales. There is one parallel between Religion and Rugby that may not sit easily with Welsh fans if they thought about it though.

An Independent Minister I knew had a theory. He called it "Wheels Religion". It was a simple theory, most people practised it. The only times they attended chapel was on wheels; a buggy to be Christened, a car to be married and a hearse to be buried. In order for them to be given those privileges of course, others had to keep the doors of the chapel open in between.

Around 12,000 people attend Regional Rugby matches in Wales in any given week of the season. Almost 70,000 will watch Wales in the Millennium Stadium in the 6 Nations. There were 250,000 visitors to Cardiff for the France game, but the Stadium was not full for the Italy game. The Stadium is rarely full for the Autumn Internationals, unless New Zealand are playing. The fans who watched Sam Warburton raise the championship trophy and his team celebrate a Grand Slam are the people who may claim Rugby as their Religion, but can 12,000 true believers keep the doors of Welsh Rugby open for them in between their trips to Cardiff?

So the next time you fancy a day out at the Millennium Stadium, remember the theory of Wheels Religion. As a referee (or firebrand preacher) might say, it's time to use it or lose it. 

Very interesting read Glas.

Thoughtful piece.

I would suggest that there are perhaps 24,000 true believers - as in any given week half the believers will find their church has moved to another country.

Yes and for certain HC matches there can be spikes of attendances. TV money has been too easy and the regions haven't drawn enough fans in. The fans however have to look home. We can kiss goodbye to grand slams if our domestic game is busted.

Songs of Praise - just too damn popular.

A good analogy,

I suppose then that th epeople who go on holy days (christmas, Easter, etc) are the ones that also turn up for the big games and Derbies but don't watch the others.

I go to mass some sundays and the holy days, and rugby is the same some smaller league games and the big games.

Also, lets not forget the thousands of people who go to watch their local village sides in Wales, I know for a fact that between all the clubs in Merthyr alone they attract to at least a thousand people between them, just because they do not all go to watch a region, it does not mean they are not supporting rugby. I know for a fact that Pontypridd get big crowds in on weekends, so do Neath and Ebbw Vale, notice that these are the supporters who feel they have no region.

Dowlais - true but clubs like Llanelli are still getting bigish crowds (or so I've been led to believe) and those are fans that still support the Scarlets also.

Yes Dreamer, I will not disagree with you, the point I am trying to make is, that although our regions might not be well supported, rugby union in Wales is, and some of the local village supporters will go and watch Wales play, that is why we see seventy odd thousand in the MS on international day and hundred thousand more in Cardiff and only two men and their dog at the Ospreys or the Blues.

Yes but the true blue supporters of grass roots rugby are not necessarily in the 70,000 figure either. It comes to something when the man that plays for his local club is priced out if internationals un favour of the big occasion people.

What Glas said. (I don't have anything I can add to that really!)

Glas a du wrote:Yes but the true blue supporters of grass roots rugby are not necessarily in the 70,000 figure either. It comes to something when the man that plays for his local club is priced out if internationals un favour of the big occasion people.

Yes, but he will still go down to Cardiff and spend his money just for the atmosphere, and anyway, just because he cannot get a ticket it does not mean he does not support rugby, I think you are trailing away from your point you first made in your origonal post, what I am trying to say is that it is not just fair weather supporters who only go and watch the big games, most of the supporters are from local rugby clubs who watch rugby every week in their own village, they do not have to support one of the four superclubs to have the right to go and watch Wales play the All Blacks.

Yes they do if they still want a Wales team. For Wales to survive internationally the gap between the total regional attendance and the international attendances has to close. Warren Gatland does not produce international potential players. The French and English will only be interested if there is a meaningful domestic game. You (as in the Welsh fan not you personally) can shout until you're hoarse in a Welsh shirt, bang in about the good old days and wish to reinstate the merit table all you want, but unless more of us get behind our regions soon the whole house of cards could fall down. What will pride or principle buy us then?

And you can tell your MP I said so if you want.

Glas a du wrote:And you can tell your MP I said so if you want.

He's not my MP.

Also, I will not let anyone tell me who to support. I am a fan of Welsh rugby, period, I also follow the regions, and now and agian will go down to the Cardiff Blues to watch them with my old man, but I will decide what games I want to watch, I also like to go to watch the Scarlets when it is the carravan season, as on my way to Tenby, if I leave on a Friday, if the Scarlets are at home I will pop in and catch a game on the way down. But first and foremost I will watch my local side before I watch any other side (bar Wales), so you are now saying that I should not be allowed to support my country because I do not follow a region on a weekly basis.

I can't agree more... or less!

I for one will never go back to the CCS! I see your points, the top players need the regions, and the regions need the fans. But when a region(S) tends to neglect the fans, and aren't interested in anything but money, it is difficult to support.

The pieman will not see another penny of mine until things change at the Blues, yet I am now a season ticket holder at the Dragons and a fe prem clubs.

It's very difficult to understand some of the fairweather supporters sometimes. They ship out in 100's of thousands when NZ come to town, but aren't interested in Italy or lesser teams despite the possibility of wins, and better quality wins. The amount of times Ive bought tickets for people who didn't want to go to lesser games, or just bought them knowing I couldn't make it drives me nuts. Yet when NZ rock up I havn't got £500 to give a tout!!!!!

I think the club issue is a good one too. Not just prem but below, 100's of people at places like Llantrisant, Caerphilly and Pentyrch, then 100's more involved. Not to mention junior systems who see 100's of people involved every sunday morning.

Rugby is supported better than religion in Wales, it's just their main church's are run by people who just want to take take take at every opportunity!

Imagine your local church, packed to the rafters on sunday mornings, people chatting, knowing each other, families, friends coming together and knowing the priest who will deliver the best surman he can. Now move it from the local church, into a duel facility leisure centre. Much more cost effective. Seats for 10 times more than usually attend, a big empty arena. Replace the local preist for a leisure centre worker who will do it for next to nothing. Change the name from 'local' to 'generic colour'. Swap the contribution plate for a note only entry fee. Televise every service on bbc/s4c and certain services sky god.

How enticing does that sound?!

are now saying that I should not be allowed to support my country because I do not follow a region on a weekly basis.

No. I'm saying there will always be the big occasion people that fill the MS, but the real rugby people need to follow the regions, either like you do or pick one of the four. I dont accept that a choice of four is too few. It's for the good of the game. OR stop bleating on about pride, passion, hwyl and rugby as a religion as you (again not you personally) in fact are not all that bothered in reality.

Bluesman

Fine, I agree, but it's cutting our nose off to spite our face. I applaud you for your stand, and know that on here I'm preaching to the converted, ahem, but this view is not seen anywhere in the mainstream media!

LordDowlais wrote:I know for a fact that Pontypridd get big crowds in on weekends, so do Neath and Ebbw Vale, notice that these are the supporters who feel they have no region.

They've made a religion out of convincing themselves otherwise, that's for sure.

YET!!

As I said the valleys initiative is taking itself seriously, and becoming difficult to ignore.

Also the Neath and Ponty crowds are speaking volumes. It won't be long before one of these teams out crowd one of the regions. The way the Blues and Ospreys crowds are deminishing, and a bit of pr for bumper crowds at a prem clubn and the media will have to take note.

You are right, it is cutting my nose off to spite my face, but at least I won't smell the wrot coming from the CCS.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Dreamer, I will not disagree with you, the point I am trying to make is, that although our regions might not be well supported, rugby union in Wales is, and some of the local village supporters will go and watch Wales play, that is why we see seventy odd thousand in the MS on international day and hundred thousand more in Cardiff and only two men and their dog at the Ospreys or the Blues.

That's bull, you're talking about less than 20,000 local village supporters here at a very, very generous estimate.

Stone

Your wrong, I'd argue there are that number either playing for, involved with, have children playing for or coach for clubs in the Dragons region alone!

Do me a favour. You reckon every man, woman and child who rocked up in Cardiff for the GS regularly attends their local team's games but doesn't watch regional rugby? Honestly? Cross Keys, Newport and Pooler would be lucky to get a tenth of that between them.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes Dreamer, I will not disagree with you, the point I am trying to make is, that although our regions might not be well supported, rugby union in Wales is, and some of the local village supporters will go and watch Wales play, that is why we see seventy odd thousand in the MS on international day and hundred thousand more in Cardiff and only two men and their dog at the Ospreys or the Blues.

That's bull, you're talking about less than 20,000 local village supporters here at a very, very generous estimate.

Here in Merthyr, there are about half a dozen main stream "village" teams. You have Merthyr, Cefn Coed, Dowlias, Nelson, Bedlinog, Treharris, Troedyrhiw, and these all have age grade teams, and all have a decent enough following. Now I do not know the official numbers for the support for Merthyr but they must get a few hundred at each game, then if you put at least a hundred for each of the other clubs first team's not to mention the parents who go to watch the age grades for each club, you have to be looking at least the thousand people mark. Now when you see some of the effort these people put into their respective clubs each week, do you mean to tell me that they do not deserve to support their country as well ? This is just Merthyr alone, I know there are clubs in and around Aberdare, Pontypridd, Cearphilly, Ebbw Vale, Tredegar, New Tredegar, Brecon, Blaenau and so on, there are hundreds more clubs in and around the valley's alone not to mention the Swansea, Bridgend, Cardiff, Llanelli area's. So I think the twenty thousand you have stated is not generous at all, in fact it might be looked at as a little way off.

You are right, Cross keys, Newport and Pooler would be lucky to get 2k. But when you consider Bedwas (Dragons region) Ebbw and the others.

Then there are the junior sections...

most junior teams have a 27/30 limit. Lets say 25 per section.

U10/11/12/13/14/15/16/youth. Thats 200 participants, and 200 parents.

so say 400 people per junior section per club...

Bargoaed, Croesy, Carleon, Abervenny, Pontypool, Macken, Bedwas, RV, Penallta, Pill, Hartridge, Caldicot, St Jo's, Blackwood, tredegar plus many more!!!

These junior sections probably contirbute 10000 people to rugby in the region alone. Thats not incuding main teams, 2nd's, 3rds, vets, and thats just playing. Friends and families probably outnumber the playing number 3/4 to 1 maybe.

20,000 people who participate, or are involved with club rugby in the Dragons region alone is a very conservative number, far outwheighing weekly attendances for the Dragons.

So what is more popular, rugby at club level or the Dragons?

Glas a du wrote:

are now saying that I should not be allowed to support my country because I do not follow a region on a weekly basis.

No. I'm saying there will always be the big occasion people that fill the MS, but the real rugby people need to follow the regions, either like you do or pick one of the four. I dont accept that a choice of four is too few. It's for the good of the game. OR stop bleating on about pride, passion, hwyl and rugby as a religion as you (again not you personally) in fact are not all that bothered in reality.

If it were not for the village teams who then feed the town teams who then feed the regions, there would be no regions who in turn feed the National side. You see it is a viscous circle, most of the supporters who follow their village side will have an affiliation with it, i.e a son or a husband or a brother playing for them. These people, who will go and watch their local side, will then more than likely go to the clubhouse and spend a couple of quid and will more than likely have kids with them who will want a drink and a packet of crisps, not to mention the parents and partners who will make food for the team and probably make burger's and hot dogs, how can these people also find the time to spend the best part of fifty quid plus to go and watch a region when they can either just stay in the clubhouse or go home and watch it on tele with a can of stella and a Chinese take out. So you see, we should all support our local teams.

Bluesman that is some pie in the sky reasoning there. Apart from the fact that I know only too well many of there lower lever teams struggle to put out even first teams in some instances many many many of these so-called masses are also regional supporters, who regularly attend games, the kids in particular.

As for relying on clubs to produce players that's simply not true anymore either. The academies produce the players not the clubs.

The academies select from clubs mate. At the age of U14's you receive an invite. You play for your club throughout, at U15's you play DEWAR sheild, still playing for your club, and at U16 get selected for Dragons honours, guess what? while still playing for your club!!

@ U18's you either become an academy player or you don't, there is in general only 30 players or so at that level so no, academies do not produce players, they select them from clubs and train them hard!

And my pie in the sky reasoning is pretty accurate according to playing figures within the region, at junior level it's around 6000, at youth its around 2000, and at senior level nearly 7000. None of these players can interchange so thats 15k before we consider the nesr 2000 volunteers, 2000 staff and thousands of parents friends and families of players..

Fine, I'm not arguing for a reduction at grass roots. If anything the more the merrier there as this is a pyramid. The problem is the second tier looks as though it's going to collapse. So let's be having you, Wales and Premiership down only rugby supporters, chose one of the four regions and lets get on with it before its too late.

Dowlais unless you can provide any official figures I'll trust the evidence of my eyes and ears. The drop in attendence between levels is huge. You certainly cannot in any seriousness claim that the event goers that packed out Cardiff for the GS were all grass roots rugby supporters who feel left out by the regions.

Stone Motif wrote:Dowlais unless you can provide any official figures I'll trust the evidence of my eyes and ears. The drop in attendence between levels is huge. You certainly cannot in any seriousness claim that the event goers that packed out Cardiff for the GS were all grass roots rugby supporters who feel left out by the regions.

AAAAAaaargh, where have I said that all the event goers are from people who feel left out by the regions ? Like Glass, you are trailing off the point from the origonal post. What I am saying is just because the regions are not supported as well as they should be, it does not mean that rugby "itself" is not supported here in Wales as there are thousands of people who support thier local side as apposed to supporting their regions, add to that, the fact the games are all on tele then the fact that rugby is struggling here in Wales is a bit of a myth. I would suggest that between the WHOLE of Wales there are at least 100,000 to 150,000 supporters who commit all their spare time to local village teams, and this is what the main competition is for the regions. Look, Pontypridd get at least 2,000 supporters per game, the Cardiff Blues would love that extra support, but they will not get it as they cannot watch two games at once.

Right, we've been skirting around it, what do people think of Valleys Rugby?

Glas a du wrote:Right, we've been skirting around it, what do people think of Valleys Rugby?

A Damn good idea.

Thought so.

It's not.

If four are on a shaky financial footing, it makes no sense to introduce a fifth.

HOWEVER

I think this exercise is a necessary one. If people can see with their own eyes that the fifth region will not work, and of their own money is at stake they will think long and hard about it, maybe then they'll get off their high horses.

THE ONLY WAY a Valleys region will work is if the two Eastern regions and the two Western regions merge and the rest of Wales become a third region. If that happens, playing at the decrepit boggy grounds of North Glamorgan and Gwent will not be an option and you better get pledging more than £100 and a discounted season ticket.

There is a massive flaw in the plan and that is that it tries to unite a number of disaffected groups. It's a matter of time before some necessary commercial hard decisions cause infighting and for them to be disaffected again. What then? Yet another region?

It happened in Religion. We'll have a region for every denomination soon!

Glas a du wrote:Thought so.

It's not.

If four are on a shaky financial footing, it makes no sense to introduce a fifth.

HOWEVER

I think this exercise is a necessary one. If people can see with their own eyes that the fifth region will not work, and of their own money is at stake they will think long and hard about it, maybe then they'll get off their high horses.

THE ONLY WAY a Valleys region will work is if the two Eastern regions and the two Western regions merge and the rest of Wales become a third region. If that happens, playing at the decrepit boggy grounds of North Glamorgan and Gwent will not be an option and you better get pledging more than £100 and a discounted season ticket.

There is a massive flaw in the plan and that is that it tries to unite a number of disaffected groups. It's a matter of time before some necessary commercial hard decisions cause infighting and for them to be disaffected again. What then? Yet another region?

It happened in Religion. We'll have a region for every denomination soon!

They can play at Penydarren Park, that ground is far from boggy, and is easily accessible from any other valley via bus or train or car Also there are lots of pubs and restaurants in Merthyr town centre.

That's the problem Dowlais, every town will think the same!

Penydarren???

NO WAY JOSE! If it's there I will certainly not follow it. It should be Sardis road or nothing!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Penydarren???

NO WAY JOSE! If it's there I will certainly not follow it. It should be Sardis road or nothing!

Have you ever been there ?

Glas a du wrote:Right, we've been skirting around it, what do people think of Valleys Rugby?

I think its an excellent idea.

1. Even if it fails it very well might kick the others into reviving themselves.

2. If it succeeds it could be an example of what Wales needs - a regional team who have a passionate fan ban.

3. It has brought the idea of attending domestic regional games to the forefront of the media in a positive way.

I truly hope it succeeds.

LordDowlais wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Penydarren???

NO WAY JOSE! If it's there I will certainly not follow it. It should be Sardis road or nothing!

Have you ever been there ?

And there you have it in a nutshell!

And the 4th reason.

If it fails it will be clear to everyone that its time to embrace the superclub.

Glas a du wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Penydarren???

NO WAY JOSE! If it's there I will certainly not follow it. It should be Sardis road or nothing!

Have you ever been there ?

And there you have it in a nutshell!

Glas, you do realise that Penydarren Park is a football ground don't you ? If yo do not follow football then of course you would have never been there. To be honest, I have been to a lot of rugby grounds in and around the valley's and none of them are at the standard of Penydarren Park. They are all out dated, espescialy Sardis Rd. At least in Penydarren Park there are decent toilets and places other than hot dog vans to get some grub, you also have quite a big clubhouse "in the grounds" there are three covered stands, two seated area's one standing and one terrace stand at the far end. You then have the Candax suite's inside the main stand and a three star hotel right next to the ground the Tregenna, all of this is about a minutes walk from the town center which has more hotels and more bars and restraunts than you can shake a stick at. Merthyr, for all it's failings is a very large town with a bigger fan base than Pontypridd or Ebbw Vale, we just need something to support.

I agree with number 4. I hope the public don't lose too much cash before it comes to pass though.

The sensible thing would be East (Cardiff and Newport) West (Neath, Swansea, Llanelli) Central (Valleys) North (the rest - development) but then everybody will be alienated!

LordDowlais wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Penydarren???

NO WAY JOSE! If it's there I will certainly not follow it. It should be Sardis road or nothing!

Have you ever been there ?

And there you have it in a nutshell!

Glas, you do realise that Penydarren Park is a football ground don't you ? If yo do not follow football then of course you would have never been there. To be honest, I have been to a lot of rugby grounds in and around the valley's and none of them are at the standard of Penydarren Park. They are all out dated, espescialy Sardis Rd. At least in Penydarren Park there are decent toilets and places other than hot dog vans to get some grub, you also have quite a big clubhouse "in the grounds" there are three covered stands, two seated area's one standing and one terrace stand at the far end. You then have the Candax suite's inside the main stand and a three star hotel right next to the ground the Tregenna, all of this is about a minutes walk from the town center which has more hotels and more bars and restraunts than you can shake a stick at. Merthyr, for all it's failings is a very large town with a bigger fan base than Pontypridd or Ebbw Vale, we just need something to support.

I knew what it was, but haven't been there. It was Bluesman that made the point about the place. My point is that there are too many factions involved in this and it will all fall apart. There is no obvious answer but Ponty are the driving force.

Glas, I often find when I am refereeing. Sometimes you have your best game when both sides think you are favouring the other team.

Dowlais - what Glas is alluding to is that he thinks the Valleys will fail because the people in Methyr will only want it in Methyr. The people in Pontypridd will want it in Ponty, the people in Eddw Vale will want the same etc.

In Munster we play all our big matches in Limerick (urban pop. 95,000) with the small matches (Aironi, Glasgow, Dragons etc) in Cork (urban pop. 198,000). Its not just about the bigger city.

red_stag wrote:Glas, I often find when I am refereeing. Sometimes you have your best game when both sides think you are favouring the other team.

Dowlais - what Glas is alluding to is that he thinks the Valleys will fail because the people in Methyr will only want it in Methyr. The people in Pontypridd will want it in Ponty, the people in Eddw Vale will want the same etc.

In Munster we play all our big matches in Limerick (urban pop. 95,000) with the small matches (Aironi, Glasgow, Dragons etc) in Cork (urban pop. 198,000). Its not just about the bigger city.

red_stag, have you ever been to Sardis Rd ? They have one main stand for seating and the rest is all terrace standing with only one side covered, trust me it is not a regional standard ground, now do not get me wrong, I am a Pontypridd supporter, and although I have not been there regulary for the past few years, I know for a fact that no development has been done there, Penydarren Park will hold 10,000 people when full and has one main stand covered and seated, a seated covered stand behind the one goal, a massive terrace stand oposite the seated stand which is covered and one open air terrace behind the othe goal, I will readily admit though that the atmosphere down at Sardis is second to only the MS on match day but the facilities are still in the seventies and Merthyr is not a million miles away from Ponty it is only about twenty minutes on the train and that is with about ten stops at each village on the way. Look, I will support a valley's team even if it is in Ponty, but I think that Merthyr is the better option as the town itself is bigger with more to offer than any other town in the valley's. Also to get Sardis Rd up to standard is not going to be cheap, you will be looking at a hell of a lot of money just to get it to a decent level for the league Ponty are in.

Dowlais, I would have thought that the Welsh would have learned from the Cardiff City Stadium v Cardiff Arms Park debacle that match day atmosphere is what will attract punters.

It sounds no worse than Firhill or the Showgrounds.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais, I would have thought that the Welsh would have learned from the Cardiff City Stadium v Cardiff Arms Park debacle that match day atmosphere is what will attract punters.

It sounds no worse than Firhill or the Showgrounds.

Nah, ask any Welsh supporters, I bet even the Ponty fans will tell you the ground isn't up to the standard needed, and penydarren Park is hardley the Cardiff city stadium or indedd the Ospreys stadium, it is more of the likes of Exeters ground for want of a simular type of comparison.

Ah thats not bad. I liked Sandy Park when I was there.

I just think that you go where there is a rugby atmosphere - thats the product people want to see.

Fancy toilets, basic stands and a big club house are not what people want. They want to go and enjoy being at the rugby game.

Whatever gets them that is the clear winner.