Joe Schmidt's rugby philosophy is more suited to Ireland than Kidney's

Leinster's game at the weekend was embarrassing for Cardiff Blues. But the Irish coaching team should be blushing too. Leinster's attacking play is simply on a different planet to Ireland's. Now before anyone says it, I know that the Irish pack won't often dominate test packs the way Leinster dominate club packs. But that just gives us even more reason to look at how we attack when we do get good ball.

Look at Leinster's overall rugby philosophy. It's completely different to Kidney's. It's about making space and exploiting the space. The decoys, the lines, the precision, the passing. It's all designed to make space and run into it. Stuart Barnes wrote a decent article on it in the Sunday Times yesterday. As most teams are increasingly getting huge guys to run straight into each other, Leinster are cutting teams apart in the vintage Kiwi style. I know this is not the only way to play effective rugby. Winning rugby is winning rugby, no matter what the style. But you need a style that suits the players you have, and suits the post ELV's game.

Look at the players at Ireland's disposal at the moment. Sexton, Earls, Bowe, Kearney etc. Look at the players young players coming through. Baby Kearney, Gilroy, Zebo, Madigan etc. The guys we have are not particularly big. The guys coming through at the moment are probably even smaller. But they are fast and skillful. They won't get far by bashing and kicking. They will score tries by playing Joe Schmidt's way. Under EOS we fully committed to a backs oriented style and our win rate was the highest Ireland have ever had. Because we had the players to play that way. We still do. And our pack is better now than it was back then.

Our players are better than the Welsh ones. But Wales have a gameplan that suits them perfectly and they're now the best team in Europe. Leinster are brilliantly coached in a style of play that suits the skills of the players. O'Driscoll's absence wasn't even noticed, because the entire team attack like a well oiled machine. Ireland have a gameplan that is completely unsuited to them and are staggering from poor performance to poor performance and going nowhere. Schmidt's philosophy is clearly waaaay more suited to the Irish players than Declan Kidney's. Repeatedly kicking and bashing a team into submission can work for some teams. But it will never work for the players we have.

The current coaching team can't bring us forward. I'd like Schmidt to be Ireland coach. I think we'd see our win rate rocket upwards under him. And we would play in a way that would bring back the currently absent Lansdowne roar. If fans from any other province couldn't stomach the Leinster coach becoming Ireland coach, then we should get somebody with a similar rugby philosophy to Schmidt. While our stars are dominating the Heineken Cup, our kids are dominating the Pro 12. Ireland's performances under Kidney are unacceptable.

I know I sound like a broken record on the subject of Kidney. But Ireland's performances for the last three years are really bugging me.

Very well written Feckless Rogue. I agree with a lot of what you say. It is quite clear that our players rely more on skill than brute force or raw pace, but that is not a disadvantage by any means, if we choose to play to our strengths. We have some massive guys in the pack atm as well such as Ferris, SOB and O'Connell. This balances things nicely IMO, and this could be why we favour such physical back rows (though there seem to more mobile players in these positions coming up through the ranks).

We need Kidney to realise this too. If he can I will not have any quarrel with Kidney as the irish head coach. The problem is I don't think he ever will see this. For his game plan to work, we would need players in the same mould as the welsh players. Backs that are bigger than their own back row. However, why should we look for such players when we have such talent readily available to us? We have to play to our strengths, instead of trying to adapt our players to an outdated concept.

Just thought I would list some of the talent we will have available to us over the next few years or so:

Scrum Half: Reddan, Murray, McGrath
Out Half: Sexton, Madigan, Jackson, Keatley
Centres: Cave, Spence, O'Malley, Marshall, Hanrahan, Griffin, McFadden
Wingers: Bowe, Trimble, Zebo, Gilroy, O'Halloran
Full Back: Kearney Sr, Kearney Jr, Jones
Utility Back: Earls, Fitzgerald

That is a crazy amount of talent honestly. Some really good players will be missing out.

Totally agree.

Its obviously a lot harder to get an team at international level playing like that than at club level but theres simple things like decoy runners and finding space that we never see in the Ireland team. This is down to the coaching.

Im not sure Schmidts the man for the job. Someone with his philosophy whos has nothing to do with the Irish setup at the moment would be ideal.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The current coaching team can't bring us forward. I'd like Schmidt to be Ireland coach. I think we'd see our win rate rocket upwards under him. And we would play in a way that would bring back the currently absent Lansdowne roar. If fans from any other province couldn't stomach the Leinster coach becoming Ireland coach, then we should get somebody with a similar rugby philosophy to Schmidt. While our stars are dominating the Heineken Cup, our kids are dominating the Pro 12. Ireland's performances under Kidney are unacceptable.

Completely agree. The line that "our stars are dominating the Heineken Cup, our kids are dominating the Pro 12" is a perfect sentence to really sum everything up. We dominate it also every way apart from international. So Kidney needs to go or have a good long hard look at himself.

Maybe New Zealand this summer will decide his future?

i wouldnt like schmidt as ireland coach because i simply never want to him to leave leinster

Just noticed this in the Indo. Hugh Farrelly calling for Schmidt to act as Ireland's backs coach for the summer tour to New Zealand.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/irish-crying-out-for-schmidt-to-get-tourist-visa-3074622.html

However I think Kidney himself is the main problem. Not the lack of an attack coach under him, which is obviously not ideal.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Just noticed this in the Indo. Hugh Farrelly calling for Schmidt to act as Ireland's backs coach for the summer tour to New Zealand.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/irish-crying-out-for-schmidt-to-get-tourist-visa-3074622.html

However I think Kidney himself is the main problem. Not the lack of an attack coach under him, which is obviously not ideal.

Agree its Kidneys problem. but if schmidt were to travel it would surely mean he sees the need for better coaching. Anyone know if the IRFU are even looking for a backs coach?

If Joe Schmidt gets involved then it needs to be as the head honcho not as backs coach imo.

Leinster play a brand of rugby that that requires not just the whole team to buy into, but the entire squad.

Careful, there'll be no domestic coaches left anywhere if this goes on. He can always come back to the Blues in any case...not that he did a lot there but can't be worse than Lamb...I mean Lam...

Can you help me with English please. What is (suited) for this contex?

anotherworldofpain wrote:Can you help me with English please. What is (suited) for this contex?

I think it means he's from NZ whereas kidney is not...

I just wonder if Schmidt will take the job anyway. Both himself and Cotter were on many peoples lists of appliants they wanted for the AB's coaching role this year. I know Cotter passed on the chance to be an assistant and I assume Schmidt was the same.

At the moment he leads a successful region. He will get the offer of a national head coach at some time. If he takes an assistant's role, he has no control over a lot of aspects of the team and could be tarnished if it fails in NZ. Alternatively, there are potential head coach jobs going in Ireland, Australia and NZ in the next couple of years.

Scmidt for Ireland? Gibbo will be hunting you down feckless

Taylorman wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Can you help me with English please. What is (suited) for this contex?

I think it means he's from NZ whereas kidney is not...

I mean the players Ireland have would be more compatible with Schmidt's style of rugby than Kidney's.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Our players are better than the Welsh ones.

That is abso hilarious!!

Schmidt is attracting some attention down under
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/6727808/JJs-coaching-legacy-still-stands-out-above-all

Kiwireddevil wrote:Schmidt is attracting some attention down under
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/6727808/JJs-coaching-legacy-still-stands-out-above-all

Interesting. Down south they don't normally take much notice of what's going on up here, believing it all to be inferior anyway. But Schmidt has Leinster playing like a top Super Rugby side. No side in Europe is playing like them.

Morgannwg wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Our players are better than the Welsh ones.

That is abso hilarious!!

Wales are clearly a better side now. It's just my opinion that the Irish players are better than the Welsh ones, but are going nowhere under the wrong coach. I believe we could be the best in Europe under Schmidt. Just my opinion mind you. No point starting a Wales v Ireland row over it. Just watch ur Grand Slam highlights and forget about us and our troubles.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Wales are clearly a better side now. It's just my opinion that the Irish players are better than the Welsh ones, but are going nowhere under the wrong coach. I believe we could be the best in Europe under Schmidt. Just my opinion mind you. No point starting a Wales v Ireland row over it. Just watch ur Grand Slam highlights and forget about us and our troubles.

Well it seemed you were stating it as a fact. Your opinion however is clearly very wrong. Three on the bounce confirms that. Don't blame Kideny for all 3 occassions, blame your inferior players! Jeez, I think Leinster are a magnificent team and everything but some arrogance that has been displayed on here in the past week is laughable. When you lost to Ospreys it was "Schmidt isn't that smart" and now all of a sudden he's better than the national coach, the same coach who can't get the best out of Ireland 'better players.'

feckless
You may be surprised how much interest we take in Northern hemisphere rugby, i must admit I didnt watch all of the Leinster match,but then again did you watch the Blues (Auckland variety).
Remember we know a fair bit about Joe schmidt too.

Morgannwg wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Wales are clearly a better side now. It's just my opinion that the Irish players are better than the Welsh ones, but are going nowhere under the wrong coach. I believe we could be the best in Europe under Schmidt. Just my opinion mind you. No point starting a Wales v Ireland row over it. Just watch ur Grand Slam highlights and forget about us and our troubles.

Well it seemed you were stating it as a fact. Your opinion however is clearly very wrong. Three on the bounce confirms that. Don't blame Kideny for all 3 occassions, blame your inferior players! Jeez, I think Leinster are a magnificent team and everything but some arrogance that has been displayed on here in the past week is laughable. When you lost to Ospreys it was "Schmidt isn't that smart" and now all of a sudden he's better than the national coach, the same coach who can't get the best out of Ireland 'better players.'

Where did you get that,most people recognised that when a team is down 3 TH props and end up playing a rookie LH there then they'll struggle.Anybody who blamed Schmidt is being silly.

I got it on here like I just said I did.

No you never said where you got it and you still haven't.Show us a few quotes or the thread it's on so I can look for myself.

How many people said it?

It's the Ospreys v Leinster thread. I'm sure you can scroll down my comment page and find it. Do you agree or disagree with Feckless' "We have better players than Wales." ?

I'd say it's fairly even,I'd snap take 4 Welsh players for Ireland and there are a good few more that I'd strongly consider.

I think Wales are much better than us at the minute and it's not because the Welsh players are that much better.

Okay read it back and I see a few people saying the decision not to opt for uncontested scrums was silly but criticising one decision is not the same thing as saying "Schmidt isn't that smart".

The rest of it was just the usual bile from DOD who takes any chance he can get to have a dig at Leinster,I can see how you could take it as genuine criticism but really he was just trolling.

I agree. I just don't see where Feckless got his superiority complex from? And saying your kids are dominating the Rabo is a bit daft aswell. Which of Irelands provincial teams put out kids (I assume you mean 20 year olds and under) then dominate teams? Ireland recruit well within and good overseas stars and rotate their players very well, evident by Munster and Leinster being in the top 4. The Welsh are only now buying into this and are struggling in the league as a result (apart from the Ospreys).

Oh here we go..

by kids feckless doesnt really mean 20 year olds or younger...by kids he means our "B" team (at least i think thats what he means) ...which would be made up of people in the early to late 20's mostly.so we still do have a very young team out when we play in the rabo.joe is doing a really good job with giving our acadamey players a run out

morgannwg...why cant we blame our last three defeats to wales on kidney when its clearly his fault ireland are playing so bad???? he is an awful international coach prob one of the worst out there bar robinson.not blaming kidney would just be ignorant on our part...do u think we should blame the players who are performing so well for our provinces??

Well the first welsh win was the officials' faults as Wales got 7 points given to them on a plate.. but to be honest this Ireland vs Wales crap bores me. The point Feckless makes is a very valid one, and some of our most talented players available to us aren't even playing atm. Where other teams give their younger, less experienced players a chance to prove themselves, our players have to work their way up and create a name for themselves. Their exposure to top flight rugby is a much slower process than many other young potential stars for other countries. In fact some of our best players most people outside of Ireland probably know very little about.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Can you help me with English please. What is (suited) for this contex?

I think it means he's from NZ whereas kidney is not...

I mean the players Ireland have would be more compatible with Schmidt's style of rugby than Kidney's.

Yes I was just kidding. Agree fully with this. Ireland have for some time been more similar to NZ rugby than anyone else in the NH, just ahead of Wales who almost seem to have taken a leaf out of the Oz style with its dependency on its backs more. Whether we admit it or not forwards are there to get the ball and apply pressure.

Mind you thats an awfully strong Leinster team. Even I know most of them and thats not usually the case.

Morgannwg wrote:Don't blame Kideny for all 3 occassions, blame your inferior players

Wales are a better team. And I do blame Kidney for that. He's gotten it completely wrong against Wales repeatedly.

But what I'm saying is that I don't believe we have inferior players and the PRO12 and HC show that, as well as 6 Nations results for a decade before 2010. Ireland have been poor in the last three games against Wales and deserved to lose. But Kidneys tactics have been completely wrong. In the last game we repeatedly kicked the ball straight down the throats of the huge Welsh back that were killing us. We invited them on to us, and then incredibly we had decided to play a drift defence, which allowed those big backs to pick up speed and momentum. Bizarre tactics. Completely unsuited to the opposition.

The fact that we got it so tactically wrong again, and the fact that our defensive kicking style under Deccie does not suit us, and we still only lost by a last minute kick, suggests to me that if we were playing in the way that Leinster do, we'd have won. It's a completely different way of playing. And Ireland would be a much better team if they played that way. That's the point of my article.

It's completely understandable if you don't agree with my opinion that the Irish players are potentially better. But I and many other fans think they are and Kidney is not the man to move them forward.

Don't blame Kideny for all 3 occassions, blame your inferior players

Game 1 was an anomaly as Wales got away with cheating.
Game 2 we were well beaten
Game 3, Wales won due to a dubious penalty decision

All of this taken into consideration, most Ireland fans would agree that Wales are currently a better team, so a little balance please....

BoyneRFC wrote:

Don't blame Kideny for all 3 occassions, blame your inferior players

Game 1 was an anomaly as Wales got away with cheating.
Game 2 we were well beaten
Game 3, Wales won due to a dubious penalty decision

All of this taken into consideration, most Ireland fans would agree that Wales are currently a better team, so a little balance please....

Balance? Well Irelands, Munster and Leinsters game plan has been based on cheating for the past decade... I agree with Feckless that it is now time for chance as it has been found out.

So basically when Munster/Leinster/Ireland are better than Wales or a welsh region, they are cheating..

Who said that? All i disputed was Feckless claiming to have vastly superior players to Wales. Then when I provided evidence to show otherwise, Wales get called cheats.

Wales were pointed out as receiving 7 points illegally in one game, they were not called cheats. Feckless Rogue said he believes the irish players are better than the welsh ones, he said nothing about having "vastly superior" players. Would you say Wales have better players than Ireland? Probably, so why is it ridiculous when Feckless Rogue says it about the irish players? It is quite clear that most of the best irish players are under performing under Kidney, yet they are like totally different players for their own provinces. It is a pretty valid comment.

Everyone has to remember that a national coach does not have as much time with the players.

Look at Schmit's first two months, not exactly great.

To say that Wales are the best team in europe is like spliting hairs.

Wales were the best each week agaisnt the team they played in the six nations as was Ireland when they won but no big wins ala france.

France are the best team in europe when adding in the big three.

England are the best when taking in the last two six nations and european matches at world cup.

All of the Four countries are much of the same and if the six nations was played in the summer we would probably have a different winner but all games would be close again.

As to Schmidt not every club coach can step up as they have them alot less unless you do a wales job and have more games so more time together or take them away for an exstra long time so having them longer

Yeah, I'd say they are superior in most aspects. Size, pace, strength, skill; they have proved that on the field so I don't see how Feckless could say the opposite. Munster and Leinster are very good teams. Could they beat Wales? No, I doubt it very much. These things aren't always linked, NZ didn't win the S15 but won a world cup. Wales won't win in the European comp, may not win the domestic one but have already won the 6 Nations and our players are quite spread out among 4 as opposed to just 2.

When was the last time that there wasn't a different top dog in europe after spring summer and AI

spring 12 Wales

WC 11 France

Summer 11 Walse/England/France

spring 11 England

I'm sure others can go back further. When was the last time that a team won the six nations twice in a row. Also how many slams have been won in the six nations and france clearly have won the most but yet again not destroying teams

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah, I'd say they are superior in most aspects. Size, pace, strength, skill; they have proved that on the field so I don't see how Feckless could say the opposite. Munster and Leinster are very good teams. Could they beat Wales? No, I doubt it very much. These things aren't always linked, NZ didn't win the S15 but won a world cup. Wales won't win in the European comp, may not win the domestic one but have already won the 6 Nations and our players are quite spread out among 4 as opposed to just 2.

The Irish national team did underperform, however it's also worth noting that the Provinces' NIQ players are a bit better than the Regions' NWQs.

If I was picking a combined side I'd have the Welsh props, Rory Best, POC and whichever Welsh lock it was impressed most in the 6N (sorry, mental block on the guy's name), Ferris, Warburton & Faletau so a 5:3 split (not that there's much in the battle of the hookers).

In the backs I'd have
Phillips
Sexton
Cuthbert
BOD
JD2
North
Kearney

So 4:3 for a 9:6 split overall

They do have some better overseas signings. There is at the moment nothing that could attract some quality outside of Wales into the Regions. Interesting call on BOD though KRD, he didn't even play in the 6 Nations. The backline is the only area I wouldn't change.

Morgannwg wrote:They do have some better overseas signings. There is at the moment nothing that could attract some quality outside of Wales into the Regions. Interesting call on BOD though KRD, he didn't even play in the 6 Nations. The backline is the only area I wouldn't change.

Well I was hardly going to pick Darcy. And it'd take someone braver than me to start a Paddy Wal-... debate on an Irish thread

I think the time has come for BOD to move in to 12, and if he did his distribution skills are better than Roberts, plus you have North and Cuthbert available for crash ball work. My 2nd option would be JD2 12 BOD 13

Now can someone please tell me the Welsh lock's name, it's bugging me. Stupid fallible memory mutter mutter.

Several of the positions are close. Healy's not far behind Gethin, the hooker spot can go to whoever throws in best in practice, Lydiate isn't far behind Ferris, O'Brien would be my bench cover. Halfpenny's goal kicking wins him a bench spot too.

Ian Evans? Davies got banned, Wyn-Jones and Charteris were returning from injury halfway through the tournament.

Morgannwg wrote:Ian Evans? Davies got banned, Wyn-Jones and Charteris were returning from injury halfway through the tournament.

That's him, cheers. I could remember the other 3's names and knew I was missing one

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah, I'd say they are superior in most aspects. Size, pace, strength, skill; they have proved that on the field so I don't see how Feckless could say the opposite. Munster and Leinster are very good teams. Could they beat Wales? No, I doubt it very much. These things aren't always linked, NZ didn't win the S15 but won a world cup. Wales won't win in the European comp, may not win the domestic one but have already won the 6 Nations and our players are quite spread out among 4 as opposed to just 2.

In my opinion, Leinster would be a sterner test for Wales than Ireland at the moment. Not that I'd usually take any notice of Stuart Barnes, but he mentioned that it was strange watching 3 Irish provinces that are all playing better than the national team. And I'd have to agree. Kidney is playing an outdated style that doesn't suit the the players natural instinct. We concede nearly 60% possession(or more) most games by constantly kicking away the ball, when every other top side is licking their lips at such a grateful gift. We only made three changes to the starting team throughout the 6 nations(all of them came due to injuries) even though players were under preforming. We show no innovation in attack and I think the players confidence is being drained so much that they can't wait to get back to the comfort of their respective province. As an Irishman, it's very hard to watch our national team play at the moment, even though I cheer them on from the rooftop and always hold out a little hope of change, it's becoming quite clear that this change will not happen under Kidney. We are progressively getting worse.

Fair play to Wales, they are playing to their strengths and you can see their players ooze self belief, not only in themselves, but their team mates, their coach and their tactics.

On another quick note, I'd hate to think what will happen to us if we continue to play a kick and chase style game against New Zealand. I'm sure they'll be only too happy to receive the ball, but we won't be getting it back for a while.

Gretgael1 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Yeah, I'd say they are superior in most aspects. Size, pace, strength, skill; they have proved that on the field so I don't see how Feckless could say the opposite. Munster and Leinster are very good teams. Could they beat Wales? No, I doubt it very much. These things aren't always linked, NZ didn't win the S15 but won a world cup. Wales won't win in the European comp, may not win the domestic one but have already won the 6 Nations and our players are quite spread out among 4 as opposed to just 2.

In my opinion, Leinster would be a sterner test for Wales than Ireland at the moment. Not that I'd usually take any notice of Stuart Barnes, but he mentioned that it was strange watching 3 Irish provinces that are all playing better than the national team. And I'd have to agree. Kidney is playing an outdated style that doesn't suit the the players natural instinct. We concede nearly 60% possession(or more) most games by constantly kicking away the ball, when every other top side is licking their lips at such a grateful gift. We only made three changes to the starting team throughout the 6 nations(all of them came due to injuries) even though players were under preforming. We show no innovation in attack and I think the players confidence is being drained so much that they can't wait to get back to the comfort of their respective province. As an Irishman, it's very hard to watch our national team play at the moment, even though I cheer them on from the rooftop and always hold out a little hope of change, it's becoming quite clear that this change will not happen under Kidney. We are progressively getting worse.

Fair play to Wales, they are playing to their strengths and you can see their players ooze self belief, not only in themselves, but their team mates, their coach and their tactics.

On another quick note, I'd hate to think what will happen to us if we continue to play a kick and chase style game against New Zealand. I'm sure they'll be only too happy to receive the ball, but we won't be getting it back for a while.

Where did you get the 60% stat for kicking the ball away?

I didn't say Ireland had a 60% stat for kicking the ball away. I said they usually concede nearly 60% possession as a consequence of kicking the ball away (60% was rough guess, we most certainly had less possession away from home in the 6 nations,and usually against tier one side over the last 3 years, I'm sure the stats can be found on espnscrum)