Cipriani at 15?

wondering whether danny cipriani could possibly light up the english backline from fullback after he gets a season or two's premiership rugby under his belt. I have always felt that he makes a better international full back than 10 because he doesnt seem to grab games by the scruff of the neck. Instead he lights them up intermittently and at 15 he would have the maximum amount of space to do his thing. This would be harsh on foden and brown in the extreme, but i would move foden to the wing and i have felt that brown has the pace or general quality for a top class international.

for the next world cup in 2015 how exciting would this backline be?

9. youngs
10. ford
11. foden
12. farrell
13. manu
14. wade
15. cipriani

i know this all depends on a continuation of form and mauturity for players like cipriani and ford which will probably not happen, but im bored trying to revise and i genuinly think that backline has danger all over the place, it has power from tuilagi, a kicking axis of 10-12-15, experience (by 2015) from youngs, foden and tuilagi and would stand up in defense with foden, farrell, ford and wade all being good tacklers for their size (plus manu) and farrell a good organiser.

should make it clear i also advocate a massive pack of marler/corbs, hartley, cole, garvey, lawes, haskell, kvesic, morgan with fearns and attwood coming on so lack of power runners in backline would hopefully be balanced out.

once again this is all very hypothetical so dont make too big a deal out of there being 3 years to go

Not for me - Foden and Brown are better full backs, offering as much threat with ball in hand and being better defenders.

Cipriani for me is (now) either the starting 10 or not in the side. If he wants to get that jersey back, he has to show that he's matured and that he's worked on his weaknesses (defensive attitude, the charging down of his kicks from hand), without significantly decreasing his strengths in attack.

Foden isn't a winger. Cipriani was approached by Tigers who decided he wasn't for them (paraphrasing Cockerill), which I presume to mean he didn't fancy playing 15 as Tigers are on the look out for fb cover and someone who could also play 10 and points kick would help. Instead he's gone to Sale where he will definitely play 10. I think we can draw the conclusion from that, that he wants the England 10 shirt.

For the record I like Cipriani at fb with the option of going blindside and giving the team playmakers and tactical kickers either side of the breakdown.

Foden and Brown are better. Simple.

And Cipriani has to battle not only Flood, but the new batch of Burns, Farrell, Ford...etc...

It WILL be interesting however to see how Geraghty and Cipriani (both in their day..the supposed saviour of English rugby at 10) will perform on their return to the premiership....

He was a 15 when he helped Wasps win the Prem wasn't he?

Played sublimely from there if my memory is correct.

didnt know about the leicester link. safe to assume 10 is his goal then. i would be suprised if he achaived it. he is in the same position as gereighty if they want to play. we know they have talent but they have to prove they can handle pressure, tackle, and in ciprianis case leave all the tabloid stuff behind.

in terms of a young exciting 10 i would expect ford to be a better bet. he is also very talented for such a young player, but hasnt make the mistakes danny has, and hopefully wont.

for the record if we count out cipriani my team would see foden moved to full back and jonny may or sharples employed on the wing. both of whom have serious pace and provide the finishing touches england lack

Why do we need Cipriani in the team? Maybe if he shows some intent to improve his weaknesses, but until then, FB is not an area of weakness. As it happens, I don't think he make my top 3 English 10s or 15s. Maybe top 5. I hope he proves me wrong but first and foremost he has to grow up. He's not the only talented young English player to show off the field problems, but he is rarer for showing little contrition or willingness to accept that the problem lies with his attitude

Frankly we don't lack promising options anywhere in the backs-

9- Youngs/Care/Spencer
10- Flood/Farrell/Burns/Ford
11- May/Smith/Sharples/Ashton
12- Barritt/JTH/Twelvetrees/Allen/Geraghty
13- Trinder/Tuilagi/Lowe/Joseph/Daly
14- Wade/Benjamin/Monye/Steggman
15- Foden/Brown/Morgan/Goode/Miller

plus plenty of others. What we have to do is pick a couple of players who add different things in each position then stick with them. Cipriani is playing catch-up

Spot on CJ, just because Cips is back in town doesn't mean we have to play him.

Foden, to me, is Englands most potent attacker and he does that from fullback so why change that?

As dummy_half said, Cips is either starting 10 or not in the squad.

yappysnap wrote:He was a 15 when he helped Wasps win the Prem wasn't he?

Played sublimely from there if my memory is correct.

He was at 15 when they won the Heineken Cup, but the following year he was mainly a 10, when he broke his leg in the semi-final. He was stunning at times that year.

Cipriani is still a massively talented attacking player.
He is not, however a massively talented defensive player

As such, to play him, requires extra work to ensure his channel is well defended.

I'm not too worried about his 'tabloid issues' given that so many of the England team have appeared in the tabloids over the past 12-18 months for the wrong reasons that Cipriani's exploits seem very mild in comparison.

If I recall, most of the time, Cipriani was just in the paper when he was photographed going out with his girlfriend.
Compare that to the things that have Care, Tindall, Haskell, Foden have all been caught doing in recent times.



Personally, I don't think he warrants a place in the team at the moment, but he has the natural pace and attacking ability to make it worth keeping an eye on him.
There's no need to count anyone out

I'm not bothered by Media issues. But the fact that Lewsey, who I have vast respect for having met him and known others who know him reasonably well, and others obviously couldn't get on with him means for me he is doing something wrong

I think the thing between Cipriani & Lewsey was a pretty minor spat and very soon laughed about & forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5pOP48R8Ww

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/oct/09/heinekencup.londonwasps


Cipriani isn't worth a spot in the England squad at present, and certainly not at FB.

Very suprised to see "Mattraven" select Farrel at 12. He looked poor in the centre for England this year, lacked pace and atacking intent. Although at 10 he looked a very good player indeed, did all the basics well and kicked superbly. A bit like Wilkinson, never going to set the world alight but totally dependable in every aspect of the game.

It will be interesting to see how Farrel fares next season when defences are organised to disrupt his game. You will all have seen what hapened to Priestland in the 6N nations when he was targeted.

As for Cipriani, great runner but pants at defence, also prone to loss of concentration. 10 probably demands the highest levels of concentration and intensity of any position in the modern game, being able to run in broken play in not enough. If it was both Henson and Hook would be world class test outside halfs!

seagultuf

i selected farrell at 12 primarily because this was a 2015 squad which is basically build on my wild and probably inaccurate predictions for the next RWC. I dont see any outstanding inside centres coming through at the moment and i would like to see a playmaker alongside manu in the future. My thinking was that farrell can obviously provide a good kicking option, has already played in the centres numerous times, can defend well and will hopefully improve his attacking game as he gains experience in the years to come.

also as its a long term future kind of squad i have made ford my 10 because for me he has shown himself likely to be a better all-round 10 than farrell by this point.

if i was picking a squad for tomorrow, i would have farrell and flood as my 10s.

i agree that cipriani's concentration and game management is not good enough for the 10 slot, but what would you think of him at 15?

maybe bench 10 if a tactical change is needed - like better attack needed

if he shows enough form he could be a game changer from the bench at either 10 or 15. bringing on him, may and JTH for example to an attack that already contains wade, manu and youngs could score points like nobodies business.

and concede pretty quick too

mattraven wrote:seagultuf

i selected farrell at 12 primarily because this was a 2015 squad which is basically build on my wild and probably inaccurate predictions for the next RWC. I dont see any outstanding inside centres coming through at the moment and i would like to see a playmaker alongside manu in the future. My thinking was that farrell can obviously provide a good kicking option, has already played in the centres numerous times, can defend well and will hopefully improve his attacking game as he gains experience in the years to come.

also as its a long term future kind of squad i have made ford my 10 because for me he has shown himself likely to be a better all-round 10 than farrell by this point.

if i was picking a squad for tomorrow, i would have farrell and flood as my 10s.

i agree that cipriani's concentration and game management is not good enough for the 10 slot, but what would you think of him at 15?

I think that even at 15 he may prove to be a liability in defence, besides Foden is one of the the best 15 in the game so that shirt is taken.

I know that Farrell plays centre regularly for Scaracens but Test rugby is so much quicker and he is simply not fast enough. Look how much better England played with two specialist centres and Farrell at 10!

Farrel should not play for England as first choice. He's not good enough

Flood is better all round and actually gets the team attacking.

Personally i hope another better 10 comes around....

Might be Ford or Burns. Only time will tell

Hopefully CJ....

I think Farrel is ok but doesnt offer enough offensively internationally.

I think Farrell has some very useful characteristics but agree that if we are going to use him you need an attacking spark from both 9 and 12

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Farrell has some very useful characteristics but agree that if we are going to use him you need an attacking spark from both 9 and 12

which we do not seem to have. at least not in a player who is internationally ready.

billy twelvetrees has long been talked about as someone who has the skills, and size, to be a complete package for england, but he is now 23 and needs to start laying a serious claim to the jersey. while a lot of people have been saying his move to gloucester will be good for him, and admittedly he will get regular time at 12, i cant help noticing the fact that he hasnt been able to get near the starting 12 spot at the tigers.

which leads us onto allen, who has been top class domestically for a couple of seasons. however i do feel that he could be one of those players who doesnt really have quite the skill level of physicality to be a test 12.

JTH has impressed me a lot with his offloading game this season, but he is still a power player at 12 rather than a flair player.

just a thought, would it not be better to have a creative 10, possibly flood or ford or burns or even cipriani in a few years, and farrell inside him at 12.With a defensive player like farrell at 10 there is a danger that even with an electric backline, the ball simply wont go wide. but with an attacking 10 every play would be instigated by the attack minded player, with farrell able to step in when the safety first approach is needed. this also has the added bonus of supporting my opening post

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Farrell has some very useful characteristics but agree that if we are going to use him you need an attacking spark from both 9 and 12

Youngs (on form) and Twelvetrees could work in that regard.

I think Farrell could definitely play a role as a controlling FH coming off the bench to close out games, but I'd prefer to see Flood or Burns (Ford further down the line) starting.

I really hope we see Ford & Burns develop and come to the fore in the next few years. Flood is a decent player, but he's not elite (if he was going to be he would be by now) and there have been a fair number of occasions where he's underperformed. Whether Ford or Burns will develop into the players that could lead us to a WC, I don't know, but I pretty doubtful Flood ever could.

mattraven wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think Farrell has some very useful characteristics but agree that if we are going to use him you need an attacking spark from both 9 and 12

which we do not seem to have. at least not in a player who is internationally ready.

billy twelvetrees has long been talked about as someone who has the skills, and size, to be a complete package for england, but he is now 23 and needs to start laying a serious claim to the jersey. while a lot of people have been saying his move to gloucester will be good for him, and admittedly he will get regular time at 12, i cant help noticing the fact that he hasnt been able to get near the starting 12 spot at the tigers.

which leads us onto allen, who has been top class domestically for a couple of seasons. however i do feel that he could be one of those players who doesnt really have quite the skill level of physicality to be a test 12.

JTH has impressed me a lot with his offloading game this season, but he is still a power player at 12 rather than a flair player.

just a thought, would it not be better to have a creative 10, possibly flood or ford or burns or even cipriani in a few years, and farrell inside him at 12.With a defensive player like farrell at 10 there is a danger that even with an electric backline, the ball simply wont go wide. but with an attacking 10 every play would be instigated by the attack minded player, with farrell able to step in when the safety first approach is needed. this also has the added bonus of supporting my opening post

Twelvetrees started at inside centre 11 times for Tigers this season, I wouldn't call that not getting near. A number of those times were after Allen had come back from injury. As soon as the call became close between the two Cockerill was always going to go with the player that he knew would still be with him next season.

Farrell's future does not lie at IC. He can kick and defend well, but he doesn't have what a quality IC must have, some form of running game, whether straighforward physicality or deft feet.

I would argue that 36 and Allen could both cut it at International level. I still think that the discarding of Allen was the most foolish mistake of the Robinson era. Geraghty is back in the country. So we do have the options of more attacking 12s if we choose to go down that route

wasnt aware he started as many as 11 times in fairness to him, but i would a fair few of those were in the world cup season when they were stretched for players, and maybe played allen at 13?, and in the lv cup. if he thought he had a realistic chance at taking and keeping the 12 shirt at leicester, then i dont think he would be leaving. i have heard, although i cant remember from where so not official, that he has gone to glaws to play 12 every week, which implies he doesnt think that will happen at tigers. which leads me ask the question 'why should he be in the frame for england if he cant get in at Leicester?'

farrell doesnt have physicalty in the way of JTH, or dazzling feet, but he can pass and create space for others. i freely admit he isnt ready to play 12 atm, but im hoping he will improve his attacking game in the years to come and develop into a aaron mauger type player.

thoughts on young ryan mills anyone? he has featured in the u20 set up last couple of years (i think) has anyone got any clarification on his style and potential?

chequeredjersey

i would say that giving allen those caps was extremely pre-emptive and definately didnt do him any favours. dropping him understandably knocked his confidence and he has only started to get back on the right track since he went to tigers. he is a good player and does all the basics well, but usually when you look at an international 12 you can identify an outstanding attribute (while hopefully being good allround as well) eg. strength (SBW, Nonu, Roberts), playmaking and kicking (barnes, giteau) defence (darcy of yesteryear, de villiers) and for me allen doesnt yet have that. although i would say he is good enough to be given a crack and hopefully he can raise his game accordingly and prove me wrong.

Gereighy (sp.) has a lot to prove but we know he is talented. like cips, i worry his defence would be a big issue, and that he has shown himself to be mentally frail

I'd say Allen has the standout attribute of the lines he naturally runs. They are a thing of beauty and he has the pace and feet to capitalise on them. Maybe he won't make it but I think he deserves a ticket to SA as a very different alternative to Barritt.

yeah i would say that allen runs beautiful lines. in a sense hopefully his brain and reading of the game can become his great strength. he would be my choice for 12 for the 2 midweek matches. if he impresses he should be included in future eps squads with a view to really pressurising barritt

I think part of Twelvetrees problem at Tigers has been his ability to play 10. With Staunton leaving and Cockerill still not quite having full faith in Ford (Twelvetrees has been preferred on the bench over Ford when both fit), I suspect Twelvetrees saw his versatility compromising his chances of playing consistently at 12. This would seem to be confirmed by Tigers replacing him with another 10/12 (heavy on the 10), Bowden.

In addition to covering 10 from the bench and when Flood is away with England, his ability to cover 13 better than Allen would also likely see him feature there for the good of the team when Tuilagi is away with England.

He recognised Tigers' squad limitations and knew what that meant for his positional future there.

Cipriani was a case of a player started early for england ,had a great Game then a shocker then was dropped.Went Overseas for Cash don`t know how he`s fared.He was onre of the many seat warmers until Johnny Wilkinson got fit,then forgotten about.He`s back now IF he wants a start he has to earn it,15 is covered 10 with Flood,Hodgeson,and Farrell ahead of him at 10.
Problem lies further out Tuilagi is massive in the centre,BUT he needs to feed his outsides more.When we get to SA we will see because the defences there are near watertight.I fore see . Goal kicking duel Farrell vrsus Morne Steyn with scores like 18-15 all penalties such is the trend.

Not sure if Burns will make it guys, he'll probably end up as the next Ryan Lamb/Shane Geraghty

think that even at 15 he may prove to be a liability in defence

He wasn't for Wasps. Great covering tackle on Alesana in the HEC Final we try to forget to deny Tigers a try and a way back into the game. Cipriani is actually a very good side on tackler but lacks the confidence to put his head into dangerous places which means he tends to wuss out of the head on tackles. In that regard his defending at 15 should actually be much better than at 10 (and certainly was for Wasps).

wasnt aware he started as many as 11 times in fairness to him, but i would a fair few of those were in the world cup season when they were stretched for players, and maybe played allen at 13?

During the RWC when both Allen and Twelvetrees were fit Allen played 12 and Twelvetrees 13. Twelvetrees would have wracked up a lot more exposure at 12 had he not been injured for a chunk of the autumn season where we were left with Smith and Agulla as the midfield after Forsyth picked up a nasty injury against Ulster at WR meaning we had no 12s left.

Niwatts is right in that Tigers have certainly used Billy as a utility midfield option. Ford will be getting more 10 chances next season but he can't really be used to cover the backline as he is still developing physically and centres at Tigers are required to put in a big defensive shift (see Allen against the Saints last weekend or Smith vs Ulster at WR). Billy did hold onto the 12 shirt for a while after Allen came back into the side but Allen's current form has nicked it back and rightfully so as in the last two games he has been outstanding. He tackled Saints to a stand still last weekend and on Saturday ran rings round JTH.

As possible 12s go, how about Ryan Mills at Glaws? He looked good in last years junior RWC and has a 10s play making skills with a centres running lines.

Word in the Aussie media is that the Rebels are considering dropping Cipriani to the bench and moving Kurtley Beale to 10 (James O'Connor is in hospital with a lacerated liver and out for up to 6 weeks)

emack2 wrote:Cipriani was a case of a player started early for england ,had a great Game then a shocker then was dropped.Went Overseas for Cash don`t know how he`s fared.He was onre of the many seat warmers until Johnny Wilkinson got fit,then forgotten about.He`s back now IF he wants a start he has to earn it,15 is covered 10 with Flood,Hodgeson,and Farrell ahead of him at 10.
Problem lies further out Tuilagi is massive in the centre,BUT he needs to feed his outsides more.When we get to SA we will see because the defences there are near watertight.I fore see . Goal kicking duel Farrell vrsus Morne Steyn with scores like 18-15 all penalties such is the trend.

I think that's needs a little altering. He had a great game against Ireland then broke his ankle in the playoff semi. He came back earlier than expected but wasn't on form (club or country) when selected for England. Then he was left to regain his form, which he never quite did before going to Australia.

emack2 wrote:Cipriani was a case of a player started early for england ,had a great Game then a shocker then was dropped.Went Overseas for Cash don`t know how he`s fared.He was onre of the many seat warmers until Johnny Wilkinson got fit,then forgotten about.He`s back now IF he wants a start he has to earn it,15 is covered 10 with Flood,Hodgeson,and Farrell ahead of him at 10.
Problem lies further out Tuilagi is massive in the centre,BUT he needs to feed his outsides more.When we get to SA we will see because the defences there are near watertight.I fore see . Goal kicking duel Farrell vrsus Morne Steyn with scores like 18-15 all penalties such is the trend.

"Went overseas for cash"? He'll be earning a hell of a lot less than he would be in England

Cipriani hasn't been spectacular this season in the Super XV. But then so has Beale and O'Connor.

biltongbek wrote:Cipriani hasn't been spectacular this season in the Super XV. But then so has Beale and O'Connor.

There's only so much you can do with no front-foot ball.

The Rebels' pack is dross.

Yep, Laurie and myself were talking about it earlier, his theory is that Beale and O'Connor has been moved to the rebels to "market" the brand.

Hasn't worked out too well for their inidividual chances now, did it?

"Went overseas for cash"? He'll be earning a hell of a lot less than he would be in England

Not at cash strapped Wasps. Rumours at the time suggested that the Rebels bettered the Wasps contract offer, which is unsuprising as Wasps have never been big spenders on individuals. Though there'll be some difference in cost of living to be taken into account of course. English salaries aren't that big you know, £4m wage cap has to purchase a squad of around 35-40 players.

The Problem for all the players in the Melbourne Rebels,was they had some very good or Great Players.O`connor,Cipriani,Greg Somerville [a Great very underated AllBlack Prop just retired].It was created to even up the team count to 5 for the a Australian S15 conference.It went against the Super team ethos an exclusive Oz,NZ or SA,team a level below Test.It is true the odd overseas player appeared in S squads.BUT never a whole team,Eddie Jones reckoned 2 or 3 at most was all OZ could sustain sucessfully.
Cipriani if he is good enough,will play his way into the team,BUT there are 3 FH plus 2 FB`s ahead of him in the starting race.

I've watched a decent number of Rebels games and I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest Cipriani should be anywhere near the England team, EPS or Saxons!

There is no doubt he is immensely talented and can do things other can't, but he is far, far too inconsistent and his defence still isn't good enough. I'm sure he'll do a great job at Sale and they will probably hide him in the defensive line up as they used to with Hodgson (who is a better defender than DC).

On a positive note, I would far rather him playing in the Jeff than S15, as at least here he can push those in front of him in the pecking order.

Seagultaf wrote:Very suprised to see "Mattraven" select Farrel at 12 ... A bit like Wilkinson, never going to set the world alight but totally dependable in every aspect of the game.

A quality that is massivley underrated at the moment and much needed in England, which is why i am a big advocate of Farrell & Robshaw. Both of these guys are utterly dependable, completely solid, huge gas tank, cool under the kosh. We definatley need 'superstars' and flare, etc, etc but the cost of that is usually they have blinders or they're utterly dreadful - which will turn any game into a rugby roulette - we need the dependable contingent.

A quality that is massivley underrated at the moment and much needed in England, which is why i am a big advocate of Farrell & Robshaw. Both of these guys are utterly dependable

Yes but there is a difference in level of dependable, Robshaw (dependably very good but no super star) and Farrell (dependably average but will slot penalties all day long). Being dependable but not really a flair option isn't a great thing to have in a 10, in fact taking a bit of a gamble with the 10 and then securing that with dependable options at 9 and 12 (Barritt is Mr Dependable for Sarries) to balance it out.

Team balance is important and you are right there needs to be reliable grafters in there to make the team work, the 2003 pack saw the backrow (holy trinity) and Johnno get all the plaudits but the front row were great in the scrums and the tight and Kay was a savant at the lineout and their graft was just as important. The current England team is desperately missing some spark in attack though so perhaps the team is a tad to workman like at the minute.

Once again, I'm going to say what ever FH we pick, we must ensure that the players closest to them can a) work off their strengths and b) cover for their weaknesses, seeing as none of the options are Dan Carter. Farrell will be fine for England but he needs attacking players around him whilst if we use Burns, we need some bulkier players and if we use Flood I'd like a game-closing bench option and maybe a kicker on the pitch as well