England consider taking 19-year-old Leicester fly-half George Ford on their tour to South Africa in June

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:15 pm

England are seriously considering taking 19-year-old Leicester fly-half George Ford on their tour to South Africa in June.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9222180/England-consider-taking-19-year-old-Leicester-fly-half-George-Ford-on-their-tour-to-South-Africa-in-June.html

by sugarNspikes Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:23 pm

Flood's the man. He's on fire at the moment. He also works best with Youngs who seems to be getting back on form too.

Ford looks a seriously good prospect. SA could be quite a baptism of fire but good luck to the lad.

by Geordie Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:35 pm

JIMMY "&%$*ING" GOPPERTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF the guy ever in the worst case scenario became eligible for England....and was picked....i would never watch them ever again!!!!!! And im a Falcons fan!!!!!

Jeesh...fancy winding me up like that at this time of night!!!!!!

by sugarNspikes Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:37 pm

Geordie, I assume he put Gopperth in for a joke.

It's Myler with an 'e' not an 'a'.

by Geordie Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:38 pm

I know...but now you see how i feel about him... Wink

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:43 pm

The IRB Young Player of the year should tour & be involved in the midweek games.

I would start with Flood in the tests as he is more creative than Farrell. The enlarged squad of 40 to tour would probably allow for Burns and/or Myler to go if Farrell was considered as an alternative centre.

by sugarNspikes Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:45 pm

Heh, hardly a ringing endorsement I agree, Geordie Smile

Don't worry, Gopperth won't get close to the England set-up unless there's some kind of fly-half plague that wipes out a large quantity of number 10s.

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Apr 2012, 10:55 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The IRB Young Player of the year should tour & be involved in the midweek games.

I would start with Flood in the tests as he is more creative than Farrell. The enlarged squad of 40 to tour would probably allow for Burns and/or Myler to go if Farrell was considered as an alternative centre.

That could well mean England take two 20 year old flyhalfs to SA. I wonder if they will pick other young players?

by Geordie Tue 24 Apr 2012, 11:05 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The IRB Young Player of the year should tour & be involved in the midweek games.

I would start with Flood in the tests as he is more creative than Farrell. The enlarged squad of 40 to tour would probably allow for Burns and/or Myler to go if Farrell was considered as an alternative centre.

That could well mean England take two 20 year old flyhalfs to SA. I wonder if they will pick other young players?

If they are playing better than the older guys...and regardless of size can cope with the Boks physicality...then YES.

The likes of Lowe, May, Wade have to go. Joseph aswell...

Lancaster has chosen to go the youth and potential route, and i praise him for that. Now he must be loyal to that and give the class youngsters a shot....mixed in with a few older heads like Croft, Robshaw, Parling, Hartley , Cole

by johnpartle Tue 24 Apr 2012, 11:12 pm

Ford would be better served playing the majority of the matches for the U20s at the JWC than making a couple of appearances from the bench in midweek games. Flood, Farrell & Burns should tour.

There's not much in that article to backup the reporter's claim about how serious Ford is being considered. Is he known to have a reliable ear in the England camp, or has he just greatly inflated a suspicion/rumour for the benefit of a story?

by maestegmafia Tue 24 Apr 2012, 11:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The IRB Young Player of the year should tour & be involved in the midweek games.

I would start with Flood in the tests as he is more creative than Farrell. The enlarged squad of 40 to tour would probably allow for Burns and/or Myler to go if Farrell was considered as an alternative centre.

That could well mean England take two 20 year old flyhalfs to SA. I wonder if they will pick other young players?

If they are playing better than the older guys...and regardless of size can cope with the Boks physicality...then YES.

The likes of Lowe, May, Wade have to go. Joseph aswell...

Lancaster has chosen to go the youth and potential route, and i praise him for that. Now he must be loyal to that and give the class youngsters a shot....mixed in with a few older heads like Croft, Robshaw, Parling, Hartley , Cole

I completely agree... That would be a very exciting England team. Lets hope that is Lancaster's plan.

by gowales Wed 25 Apr 2012, 7:29 am

Not sure, he's only around 12 stone and still developing physically. Maybe a full pre-season with Leicester will be better for him?

by fa0019 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 10:10 am

The midweek matches will make up of players outside of S15 squads... which means you will get players from the Vodacom Cup squads which is currently running at the same time as the S15 season. This is the 3rd division of SA rugby so playing either Flood or Farrell will not be tested and at best they could try to come out of the game not injured.

Someone of Fords standard would benefit from this type of exposure so its probably a good idea.

They have to start with Flood though at 10. Farrell will be taken to school by SA who will probably start with Morne Steyn, Lambie and Frans Steyn in the 10,12 & 15 positions.

Taking a 5 cap 21 year old to try and outwit the above 3 players in a kicking territorial battle will end one way... badly for England. England need at least 1 more recognised kicker on the field... so perhaps a Flood, Farrell 10, 12 combo will be best.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:20 am

so perhaps a Flood, Farrell 10, 12 combo will be best.

No because that would leave a centre partnership with a combined age of 40, neither of which is particularly good at running a defensive line. Barritt offers a defensive general, reliable crash ball and was a fly half in SA before coming to England (his mother's country).

Taking a recently turned 19 year old, 12 and a half stone George Ford to SA would be a high risk move. He is diminutive but potentially brilliant with ice cool calm and an O'Gara esque tactical kicking game but yet he also plays flat. He'll either be a raving success or it will be the Matt Tait destroyed confidence/reputation repeat. Tough call. Sending him to the JWC would be the easy option but there are some good 10s coming through (Heathcote, Bell, Slade) and England have got to be proactive in their development as 10 options aren't that bountiful at the moment. Of the young 10s Ford is the most well rounded despite his diminutive frame and even current media favourite Farrell played second fiddle to him at under 20 level. Tough call.

by red_stag Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:23 am

I'd imagine they would go with:

- Toby Flood (nearly 50 caps for England)
- Owen Farrell (5 caps for England)
- George Ford (uncapped)

Whats the issue. It seems to make common sense to me.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:35 am

I'd assume they'd take Burns as well as or instead of Ford personally Staggy. Burns is a good young attacking 10 and was in the Saxons for the win over the Wolfhounds. He is also getting regular rugby as the first choice for Gloucester and is a couple of years older than Ford so has that base of experience.

by red_stag Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:39 am

Whichever of them really Sam. Burns looks a good option too.

by fa0019 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:02 pm

formerly known as Sam

Barritt was a flyhalf before he came to ENG... are you sure??? I can't remember ever watching him for the sharks in any position bar centre. He has never taken me a second five eigth in the mould of McAllister, Giteau, Mauger & Henson.

Perhaps at school maybe.

All I'm saying is if you go to SA playing with only 1 recognised kicker you will get burnt. ENG do not have a halfpenny, Kearney type fullback in Foden so they will be exposed at the back in a ping pong territorial battle... and with Frans Steyn opposing, you have to be deadly accurate as he will kick it 10-20 metre further then anyone else.

You can't play all teams the same, you have to vary your side depending on the opposition. Against sides with a good kick from hand game and a swift backrow you need first receiver options.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:16 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Barritt

He is used as a secondary play maker by his club and has previously shown a half decent kicking game though not a great one.

All I'm saying is if you go to SA playing with only 1 recognised kicker you will get burnt. ENG do not have a halfpenny, Kearney type fullback in Foden so they will be exposed at the back in a ping pong territorial battle... and with Frans Steyn opposing, you have to be deadly accurate as he will kick it 10-20 metre further then anyone else.

Perhaps but if you go to SA with a disorganised defensive line you will be destroyed. England have the option of bringing in Brown and his cannon of a left boot at full back should they need to add extras to their tactical kicking game.

You can't play all teams the same, you have to vary your side depending on the opposition. Against sides with a good kick from hand game and a swift backrow you need first receiver options.

This is true but Farrell is a particularly poor first receiver option by international standards (even Wilkinson is more creative) and despite his excellent kicking game he wouldn't increase the strength of the English midfield he would decrease it because of the leadership and defensive strength we would lose in Barritt.

by fa0019 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:34 pm

The thing for Farrell is that he's pretty much been thrown in at the deep end... most test flyhalves who started out young were blooded in other positions with less responsibility i.e. Giteau, Wilkinson, Lambie, Carter, Townsend etc etc.

Take a bit of the pressure off him and I'm sure he would open up a little.

Nothing against Barritt but I just see him as keeping the bench warm for someone else to claim the jersey fulltime... I don't see much of a change from Hape in terms of what he offered to the side.

One thing is for sure... Farrell on his own would be a nightmare scenario.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:40 pm

Nothing against Barritt but I just see him as keeping the bench warm for someone else to claim the jersey fulltime... I don't see much of a change from Hape in terms of what he offered to the side.

Other than defensive organisation, massive tackle count and a reliabe crash ball option (in that he wouldn't drop it). Barritt has been the best IC in the AP for a couple of seasons and is the reason Farrell is currently shoe horned in at 13 for his club.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:43 pm

Flood starting 10, Farrell bench covering 10/12.

Ford long way from Int rugby, he's a really small guy and would get targeted from the off. I'm unsure he'll ever make the step up personally due to his size.

by fa0019 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:43 pm

I think thats a little unfair on Hape... defensively he is/was a good player. Limited in attack sure but then again Barritt is no Shane Williams either.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:46 pm

Agree with Sam, Barritt is well ahead of the others at 12 (JTH prob behind, 36 an option). Really don't see what Farrell brings to the table from centre but he could cover there I guess.

10. Flood/Farrell
12. Barritt/36
13. Tuilagi/Joseph

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:50 pm

I think thats a little unfair on Hape... defensively he is/was a good player. Limited in attack sure but then again Barritt is no Shane Williams either.

True but Hape was particularly bad at organising a defence hence the partnership with Tindall (who was good at it) and hence why Manu was partnered with Tindall. There needs to be some leadership in a midfield combo and Barritt is good at offering that. His tackle count for the 6N also read more like a backrower than that of a centre which is more than a little handy when playing the hard hitting Boks.

Ford long way from Int rugby, he's a really small guy and would get targeted from the off. I'm unsure he'll ever make the step up personally due to his size

People said that about Neil Back as well but it never stopped him, if you work hard at the physical aspects you can bring them up to scratch. JOC is not that much bigger than Ford (a stone) and a couple of years older so Ford could easily bulk up past 13 stone and manage perfectly well. BOD and Smith are the two best OCs in the world and both of them only weigh in at about 14 stone.

by **Biltong** Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:51 pm

People said that about Neil Back as well but it never stopped him, if you work hard at the physical aspects you can bring them up to scratch. JOC is not that much bigger than Ford (a stone) and a couple of years older so Ford could easily bulk up past 13 stone and manage perfectly well. BOD and Smith are the two best OCs in the world and both of them only weigh in at about 14 stone.

Jaque Fourie.

by gowales Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:53 pm

Yea but put Jaque Fourie, BOD, Conrad Smith, Neil Back next to Ford. There is a massive difference, they are men, he looks like a 15 year old

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 25 Apr 2012, 12:56 pm

I'm just unsure on Ford, can imagine him getting steam rollered. He's that small physically I'm unsure he'd be able to bulk up enough.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1:26 pm

I'm just unsure on Ford, can imagine him getting steam rollered. He's that small physically I'm unsure he'd be able to bulk up enough.

Perhaps but his technique is good and the willingness/aggression is there. That to my mind is big part of defence. He does need to add half a stone or maybe a stone to his frame but that would make him big enough, 13 to 13 and a half stone is a fair weight for a 10 of his height. His tacitcal kicking skills are so far ahead of the players in his age group and his game management (particularly in attack) is that of someone a good five or so years older. He stood up to the batterings in the semi and final of the LV against Bath and Saints first teams so he must be developing pretty well in that area.

by yappysnap Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1:29 pm

Some of the nastiest tacklers in teams are the scrum halves and they're ofter 12-13 stone and 5'9ish

by gowales Wed 25 Apr 2012, 1:37 pm

yappysnap wrote:Some of the nastiest tacklers in teams are the scrum halves and they're ofter 12-13 stone and 5'9ish

But they are usually swiping behind the defence, Ford will be in the main channel and will have to mostly make front on tackles

by robbo277 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 2:20 pm

We're taking a 40 man squad to South Africa, but unlike the Lions (who took 35 for a longer tour) there will be some players who we do not expect to make the test team, who are "one-for-the-future" picks. Ford could well be one of them, along with players like Wade and Launchberry. These are players who we want to look at now but only in the midweek team ahead of possibly Saxons call-ups next year (unless they produce something beyond all imagination).

Ford should go in my opinion, as a fourth choice 10. I wouldn't have him near the test 22 though.

by B91212 Wed 25 Apr 2012, 3:21 pm

I think Ford will make it but I wouldn't take him on this tour, opting instead for Flood (first choice), Farrell (bench option) and Burns (midweek). I would like to see Ford have more exposure to the Tigers first team before being selected for an England squad. It will be interesting to see Flood and Ford battle it out for the Tigers 10 shirt over the next 12 months, although my concern is that Cockerill will select Bowden on the bench next year due to him covering 10 & 12 (unless he feels Bowden's goal kicking isn't good enough).

Like fknS says Ford looks to have everything other than size and my guess is seeing as his Dad was an international defense coach and ex RL player then his defense, regardless of his size, is at least going to be to an acceptable standard.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 25 Apr 2012, 3:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'm just unsure on Ford, can imagine him getting steam rollered. He's that small physically I'm unsure he'd be able to bulk up enough.

Perhaps but his technique is good and the willingness/aggression is there. That to my mind is big part of defence. He does need to add half a stone or maybe a stone to his frame but that would make him big enough, 13 to 13 and a half stone is a fair weight for a 10 of his height. His tacitcal kicking skills are so far ahead of the players in his age group and his game management (particularly in attack) is that of someone a good five or so years older. He stood up to the batterings in the semi and final of the LV against Bath and Saints first teams so he must be developing pretty well in that area.

Yep. If your technique is good and you think you can make the tackle, there is no reason why someone should get past your tackle even if they are bigger than you. You don't need strength to bring someone down (though it helps)- you're not trying to pick him up or drive him back, you just need to be able to take one leg out. Easier said than done but you can't make assumptions based on size about defence

by ieuan Wed 25 Apr 2012, 3:42 pm

England need to pick Flood at 10. Farrell is obviously a very talented kicker of the ball and his defense is better than floods IMO.You cannot beat the Boks by playing 10 men rugby, you beat them by running round them and using your backs, Flood is so much better at getting his backs involved than Farrell and is reliable enough from the kicking tee.

Having said this i have a feeling Lancaster will start with Farrell because he finished the 6 nations at 10

by **Biltong** Wed 25 Apr 2012, 4:54 pm

ieuan wrote:England need to pick Flood at 10. Farrell is obviously a very talented kicker of the ball and his defense is better than floods IMO.You cannot beat the Boks by playing 10 men rugby, you beat them by running round them and using your backs, Flood is so much better at getting his backs involved than Farrell and is reliable enough from the kicking tee.

Having said this i have a feeling Lancaster will start with Farrell because he finished the 6 nations at 10

Absolutely correct, you won't beat us with playing conservatively and set phases, you need to do what OZ and NZ does and France on occasion.

by maestegmafia Wed 25 Apr 2012, 11:44 pm

biltongbek wrote:
People said that about Neil Back as well but it never stopped him, if you work hard at the physical aspects you can bring them up to scratch. JOC is not that much bigger than Ford (a stone) and a couple of years older so Ford could easily bulk up past 13 stone and manage perfectly well. BOD and Smith are the two best OCs in the world and both of them only weigh in at about 14 stone.

Jaque Fourie.

JD2...!

by formerly known as Sam Thu 26 Apr 2012, 9:30 am

JD2...!

Is an inside centre that covers OC very well for his country. One of the best inside centres in the world though. Hopefully he'll be wearing the Lions 12 shirt next year with BOD or Manu (if he can rediscover his best form) at 13.

Absolutely correct, you won't beat us with playing conservatively and set phases, you need to do what OZ and NZ does and France on occasion.

True, going toe to toe with the Boks (especially under a tactically astute forwards coach like Meyer) would not be a good idea. Make sure we have the tools to compete and make sure the set pieces aren't one sided but don't try and base the game plan on those. For me Flood has to start as he is the best attacking 10 we have but his defensive game is not a weakness (neither is it a strength), there really should be no competition seeing as Farrell can't hold the 10 shirt at his own club.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 26 Apr 2012, 9:45 am

The Tigers boss said he hopes that any of those players on the fringes of the squad would be treated in the right manner if they were chosen to go on tour – with 18-year-old Ford being top of his list.

"George has a lot of talent," said Cockerill. "He needs to develop physically and, at some point, he will need a pre-season to do that. It's good experience if he comes out of it in a positive fashion.

"That is up to Stuart Lancaster and I have had a discussion with him regarding that.

"If we are taking guys out there as a development tool, then fine. But let's make sure that we don't then criticise them if they are maybe not quite as successful as we want them to be.

"Give them a feel of what it is like at that level, but do not be judge and jury if they don't perform at the level we would like them to be.

"That has happened in the past with some high-profile cases of young players."

by DaveM Thu 26 Apr 2012, 9:48 am

I think it unlikely anyone other than Farrell will start the first test. One interesting question is whether Hodgson tours. I'd take Burns, so I'm not sure there is room for Ford. On the other hand sending him to another JWC might not achieve much seeing as he's already been the best player in the world at his age group.

I'm looking forward to seeing Flood on the pitch with Barritt at some point, as this will help show where the problem lies in England's attacking game.

The young players I'd take are Wade (he may not be big enough, but let's find out - he should love the hard ground and I think his step and acceleration are in the same category as Robinson's), Joseph, Twelvetrees, Trinder, Miller and Launchbury. I'm not sure May's recent form justifies a call up.

by lostinwales Thu 26 Apr 2012, 9:49 am

I would have also thought that - even though the JWC is a 'junior' competition - we do have a shot at winning it this year and to that end its worth having Ford there doing something special rather than carrying bags in SA.

On Farrell - I see above someone saying that he might open up a bit more with less pressure on him. Well so far he doesnt look much like 'opening up' that much ever - but rarely has a guy that age ever come through and handle pressure so well.

by DaveM Thu 26 Apr 2012, 9:50 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
His tacitcal kicking skills are so far ahead of the players in his age group and his game management (particularly in attack) is that of someone a good five or so years older. He stood up to the batterings in the semi and final of the LV against Bath and Saints first teams so he must be developing pretty well in that area.

I'm not sure he's miles ahead of Heathcote. Ahead yes, but not so far ahead.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 26 Apr 2012, 10:16 am

I'm not sure he's miles ahead of Heathcote. Ahead yes, but not so far ahead

Heathcote has certinaly improved a lot since breaking into the Bath team but actually I think his major area of development should be his kicking from hand. He distributes well, tackling is decent and he kicks his points but there's none of the dropping it in behind the covering winger to kicks to touch and there's no pin points bombs. Ford kicks from hand like a 30 year old 50+ cap international it's his major strength. It's that strength which won Tigers the semi final in the LV Cup. It's going to be a great tussle between those two over the next decade or so as Heathcote strikes me as a more running option where as Ford is very much the midfield general, if they both go to the JWC I hope they trial Ford at 10 and Heathcote at 12.

by thomh Thu 26 Apr 2012, 11:09 am

Sam - that's not to detract from Ford's running and passing game though. He looks to be an admittedly raw but very well-rounded player already.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 26 Apr 2012, 11:44 am

He is very well rounded, doesn't have the biggest passing range but is very clever with ball in hand. He takes it up nice and flat and then releases it once he knows the defensive drift is limited. If multiple runners are available to him it makes him very hard to defend against because he isn't the fastest his acceleration is very good and that rugby brain of his just knows where the gaps are. It says quite a bit about his talent and his defensive committment that he's making his name at Tigers where Richard Cockerill has no patience for players that are not physical and putting their bodies on the line (just ask Tom Varndell).

by maestegmafia Thu 26 Apr 2012, 7:19 pm

Rather a resounding result for Toby flood to be first choice. Lancaster currently ranks him behind Hodgeson, Farrell and possibly Ford.

by Geordie Thu 26 Apr 2012, 8:08 pm

Flood has to start.

Personally id rather start our own James Fitzpatrick or Turner hall at 12 than Farrell.

Im just not happy with someone there with no offensive ability what so ever.,..not even a good crash ball that at least the other two above would offer....

I think Farrell needs to learn from Hodgson at every chance he can to get his passing and creativity improving...then he could be an excellent 10. But he's a long way away...

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 27 Apr 2012, 1:18 am

Farrell overs nothing from 12.

He's a developing 10 but I fail to see anything in him tbh. Safe boot is just not enough for us going forward. We need to get past the 'Wilko mentality' as we might never have the pack + Greenwood, Robinson to cover for Farrells glaring inadequate attributes.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 27 Apr 2012, 9:57 am

maestegmafia wrote:Rather a resounding result for Toby flood to be first choice. Lancaster currently ranks him behind Hodgeson, Farrell and possibly Ford.

I dont think thats true at all. He was picked behind Hodgson and Farrell at the end of the 6 nations because of injury and loss of form, plus those two playing at the top of their games. then there was the style England were playing at that point under Farrell seniors guidance which did not encourage running from the half backs, which is the one thing Flood offers none of those do. Ford hasnt even made a Saxons squad yet. You could colour me amazed if Lancaster doesnt see flood as his start or bench 10 as things stand at the moment. When/if a new backs coach is found I wouldnt be at all surprised if he sees Flood as his man to get the attack moving.
Certainly Hodgson doesnt fit Lancasters "players for the future" policy and has always smacked as a stop gap place filler. Some loyalty for having done what was asked of him, but Lancaster was more than willing to push him aside and risk Farrell.
id see it very much as Flood Farrell fighting over whos on the bench for the tests with Hodgson Ford fighting for the third tour spot, the likes of Burns and Clegg having dropped off a little recently as others have stepped up.

by BigTrevsbigmac Fri 27 Apr 2012, 10:13 am

Ironic that Farrell who is at best behind Flood at FH for England was the stand out FF in the 6Ns.

I think after this season coming Ford will overtake Farrell etc & be snapping at Flood for a starting berth at Tigers & England.

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