does Ireland/Wales/Scotland have the depth for 4/3(scotland) teams and only 20 NIQ that can compete in Europe

First topic message reminder :

The big three will soon only be able to have 5 NIQ and between them only one in each position
If each of them have/need 44 players (2x22) that is 117 irish players

Add in Connacht who on the same funding and soon will be mid table Rabo (3years) the other 3 will make sure that Connacht will have to abide by the same rules. So that will be another 39 players

So do Ireland have 155 club players of which 60-88 are HC and similar amount as Rabo and then the remaining being fringe players.

It would be great to think they could but I'm not sure.

At present we have about 60 HC players at most (some subs and some from Connacht) of which at least 15 are NIQ

The Rabo is another story as UIlster can't rest a full team and be compeditive.

What do you think

I think they should restrict their restrictions to the positions where it's necessary. For example tighthead. They should try to get more Irish tightheads starting. If it reduces Munster and Ulsters chances in the HC then tough luck. The national team is top priority.

However there are other positions where there's no need to be meddling in the running of the provinces. For example we are not short on back three players or blindside flankers. So they should be more easy going on a province who wants to sign one from abroad to improve their squad.

I think 4 foreigners in each squad is fine. Then maybe 3 in the future. The IRFU just need to be sensible in what foreign signings they allow.

By the way Geoff you're right about Ulsters difficulty in signing non Ulster players. This puts them at a disadvantage. What could the IRFU do to encourage this? I thought maybe with a player like Ruddock or Conway the IRFU could come to an agreement that they'll get fast tracked into the test team setup if they go? But then again you can't guarantee they'll be good enough for the test team. Maybe the IRFU could give a bit more money to Ulster to help them tempt IQ players from outside Ulster to come north?

The one year contracts for NIQ is rubbish and should be scraped. The Provinces have done fine at picking their NIQ and they will be even more careful then before with limited postions.

Fly the problem I see is not the lack of players but the number of players in each squad. Do we want to go down the Ulster route and go on a small squad.

Ulster is small because of Money but if they wanted they could put another 10 in there on pay as play but the quailty isn't there so there is no point.

Like Geoff has said people may not move north and though they provide their own there is no incentive to do so

I would hate to think that to have four full squads some of the AIL players would be moved up.

Feckless the only way you could get people to move is to only allow starting players. Madigan is on the verage of the squad and not first chice why would he go anywhere.

Would we be better then having an A league have a combined Welsh/Scottish/Irish league of the Top teams that go up and down.

Wales could put North wales in it.

Top team from AIL goes up bottem Irish go down and same for the other two countries.

Could clubs afford this and would you have to have each province have a team and as such it would end up as the A league anyway

Nope the travelling costs would be prohibitive.
Also relegation is not workable for all sorts of reasons.

A 12 club National league and Provincial leagues below that is the way to go - never going to happen though.

If Ulster had 3 slots - who become the new super clubs - Ballymena/Rainey OB, Belfast Harquins/Instonian/Malone, Bainbridge/Dungannon/Ballynahinch

Sling you hook the rest ?

It would make Welsh regionalism look like a vicars tea party by comparison.

We have the British and Irish Cup and the A Interpros. Treat it properly and there is no reason that you can't have 10-15 provincial A matches a year.

Agree but with two imprtant reservations.

Ulster would struggle during the International windows.

Who else would be able to play 10/15 games a year.
The Welsh and English teams we play are in regular leagues - they dont have the fixture freedom we have.

geoff998rugby wrote:But to work it needs players willing to move around the Provinces.

The reality is southerner wont move north - so Ulster will suffer.
Also the business of allowing players to no longer re sign has not been thought threw properly.

I think it a little defeatist to think Ulster will suffer because Southern players won't want to involve Ulster as they rotate around the three 'Southern' Provinces.

Let's not forget again that if Provinces really are more than the cities they base themselves in then Ulster has three of its counties in the south. I'm wondering where the tax incentives for Irish players end - where they live or where they play? If Ulster players lived in the 'southern - or western - parts of Ulster would they still avail of tax incentive packages from Irish government?

But even apart from that, the difficulties with the proposals will be instant for all sides and Ulster will have their difficulties - but so too will Munster and even Leinster.

The goal sits further down the line and into the decade ahead. In that scenario as Ulster are forced to drag through players quicker into the Provincial set up and play them more - will they really be in need of southern based players to fill their slots?

To assume so is to dismiss all that is being organised for the future at Ulster - academy etc. Won't they be doing their best to enhance the skills and conditioning of their young hopefuls every bit as much as the other Provinces - with even more focus on the science of doing so because of the imperative of instigating their senior careers at an earlier age.

I don't think Ulster would suffer because I think they'd eventually be producing enough up and coming players of their own without looking south for quality too much.

For the AIL you could go down the Scottish soccer did a couple of times which is everyone plays each other once and then they divide in two and the half play home and away and so does the bottom.

Another is that you have an interpro competion which would be 2 leinster teams 2 munster, 2 ulster and a connacht team

If the AIL goes the way of the Welsh Prem then the IRFU can do what they want with it.

SecretFly wrote:
Let's not forget again that if Provinces really are more than the cities they base themselves in then Ulster has three of its counties in the south. I'm wondering where the tax incentives for Irish players end - where they live or where they play? If Ulster players lived in the 'southern - or western - parts of Ulster would they still avail of tax incentive packages from Irish government?

Off the top of my head no, because they'll still pay income tax and NI in the UK and then I think they make up the difference in Tax to the Irish goverment, if its higher than here, plus pay their other taxes and rates etc. down* there.

A lot of people that work here and live across the border* use an address in NI to avoid the red tape involved in cross border working.

Besides who the flip wants to move from Dublin, Galway, Limerick or Cork to Monaghan?! ....

*Please excuse the lazy terminology

what number realistical are produced by the academies that are good enough to be atleast a bench Rabo player each year

I would guess that about 10 or so on development contracts

Ulster are producing players but like all these things they go in cycles.
We are currently not that great in positions 4 to 9. (Henserson, Birch and Joyce and thats it) but better elsewhere.
Thats to be expected.
The difference is Leinster and Munster will be able to rotate players to address shortfuls.
Ulster will not have that option.

The whole tax thing has been looked at repeatedly - they work in the North they pay UK taxes.

Brendan wrote:what number realistical are produced by the academies that are good enough to be atleast a bench Rabo player each year

I would guess that about 10 or so on development contracts

You can half that number.

The academy players at Ulster are about 10-15 but that covers a 2, sometimes three year cycle.
So in 3 years you produce a reasonable team.

Trouble is 5 positions will have 2/3 players and 5 have no players of the required standard.
Its the nature of the beast.

Surely Geoff the fact that McLaughlin is moving to academy we should expect to see a big improvement there?

rodders wrote:
Besides who the flip wants to move from Dublin, Galway, Limerick or Cork to Monaghan?! ....

*Please excuse the lazy terminology

Rodders, you've obviously never seen some of the palaces (oops, I mean houses) that are sprinkled through Cavan and Monaghan..and I'm sure wee Donegal too (though I'm not so familiar with it)

The quiet life isn't all that far away from the busy life in modern (roads) Ireland. And where you're 'living' never really has to mean where you're 'staying'

Anyway, to get serious again...I don't really think just-across-the-border living is a goer for Provinical players but then that just restates the problem Geoff alluded to - the idea that there is not enough incentive for 'southern' Irish players to cross the border. As I said, I personally don't think Ulster will need them but should Geoff be right, then the problem actually exists with Ulster itself - they would have to get creative in attracting southern players up if they needed them. Any thoughts on how that might be achieved?

rodders wrote:Surely Geoff the fact that McLaughlin is moving to academy we should expect to see a big improvement there?

I think you will see an improvement in technique and a slight increase in numbers but you still cant make a silk pursue out of a sows ear.

I dont think for one moment we will cover all position, at least once every three years which is what is required, in order for us not have to go outside Ulster for players.

To be clear a reduced number of NIQ players (3 has been mentioned) might address the more serious shortfalls.

However my gut feeling is we will still need to attact southerners or find the likes of D'Arcy, Court, Boss, Kyriacou, Tuohy etc who are Irish courtesy of their parents/grandparents.

SecretFly wrote:
Anyway, to get serious again...I don't really think just-across-the-border living is a goer for Provinical players but then that just restates the problem Geoff alluded to - the idea that there is not enough incentive for 'southern' Irish players to cross the border. As I said, I personally don't think Ulster will need them but should Geoff be right, then the problem actually exists with Ulster itself - they would have to get creative in attracting southern players up if they needed them. Any thoughts on how that might be achieved?

To be honest fly if I was guaranteed x amount of my tax rebated upon retirement then I wouldn't be keen to give that up.

That is bound to be a factor. But then for young guys who haven't established themselves you'd think that wouldn't be huge issue. We've seen plenty of Irish guys go to England for example.

Maybe there are just politcal and ideolgical reasons why a lot of Southern players don't want to play for Ulster.

To be honest I don't understand why it is so difficult to convince Irish guys to join us, I mean we are a few hours from Dublin, we are getting closer to challenging for trophies, almost guaranteed to be playing in the HEC and can provide the opportunity to learn from and play alongside world class players like Pienar, Ferris and Bowe.

I really don't get it

rodders wrote:
To be honest I don't understand why it is so difficult to convince Irish guys to join us, I mean we are a few hours from Dublin, we are getting closer to challenging for trophies, almost guaranteed to be playing in the HEC and can provide the opportunity to learn from and play alongside world class players like Pienar, Ferris and Bowe.

I really don't get it

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there, Rodders. Incentives for southerners to try it are going up all the while. Maybe that was the only thing missing, the attaction of going to a side that had serious ambitions and was showing them.

Now Ulster are in that position - ambitious might be even too shy a word to use when downright ruthlessness might be a more accurate word. Conviction is in the air up in Ulster and I think southern eyes will begin to look up there, especially if the southern eyes watching are not getting enough time with their own Province.

The BIG plus would actually be that us Southerners would also feel more of an affinity with Ulster and tighten the all-Ireland bond the Provinces create come International time.

NOT that that feeling doesn't already exist and I'll be almost as passionately looking for an Ulster victory at the weekend as a Leinster one. But having a few Leinster lads up there, possibly central in helping Ulster collect some trophies - yep, I'd like the sound of that. It would be a positive development for the continued growth of rugby on this island, not to mention the growth in closeness between two historically and painfully divided communities.

I still think alot of the younger players think that the Irish squad is Leinster and munster with a few Ulstermen.

We need to stop making the bench at munster and Leinster being equal to playing for ulster. Also once Leinster stop being the big team that is so far ahead more will leave as they won't be in with a big shout for the League and HC every year.

I would take a HC medal as a sub over playing for ulster or munster and I think that is how younger players view things.

How many IQ players have gone from one province straight to another excluding Connacht

Brendan wrote:I still think alot of the younger players think that the Irish squad is Leinster and munster with a few Ulstermen.
We need to stop making the bench at munster and Leinster being equal to playing for ulster. Also once Leinster stop being the big team that is so far ahead more will leave as they won't be in with a big shout for the League and HC every year.

I would take a HC medal as a sub over playing for ulster or munster and I think that is how younger players view things.

How many IQ players have gone from one province straight to another excluding Connacht

Brendan, I thought that was the written rule - one or two 'token' Ulstermen in the national team?

I think in a few years time Ulster could have 1/3 of the starting team with munster only having a couple and some on the bench

Ulster could have a third of the team, i na match, this year - Best, Ferris, Trimble, Bowe and 1 from Tuohy, Court, Henry or Wallace.

The days of the token Ulsterman are long gone.

4 are in the first XV, on merit, NOW !

Ulster could have a third of the team in New Zealand - going on their form verses Munster's off colour (for them) performances.

I think that getting ulstermen in the Ireland team and squad will do more for ulster then the IRFU telling people to move.

Tuohy will be there soon enough.

geoff998rugby wrote:Nope the travelling costs would be prohibitive.
Also relegation is not workable for all sorts of reasons.

A 12 club National league and Provincial leagues below that is the way to go - never going to happen though.

If Ulster had 3 slots - who become the new super clubs - Ballymena/Rainey OB, Belfast Harquins/Instonian/Malone, Bainbridge/Dungannon/Ballynahinch

Sling you hook the rest ?

It would make Welsh regionalism look like a vicars tea party by comparison.

Vicars tea party.

On a serious note, can an Irish player living in Northern Ireland be centrally contracted to the IRFU ? If yes, who would he pay his taxes and national insurances to ?

Brendan wrote:
If connacht improved I think more would look to go there.
As stated above it is fine for the second string players at leinster to say they wont go but the ones under them will as they will see other provinces less crowded so a better chance.

Indeed. The new academy players in Leinster will be queuing up to go to Connacht soon. Why, because the Leinster squad is full, theres not many players going to retire soon and they've quality throughout the squad with many of the players young already. To break into that squad now the new academy players will have to be better than the previous ones! Connacht should no doubt benefit from this if those players choose Connacht over going abroad. Therefore, I can only see Connacht improving every season for the foreseeable future.

The Scots are getting stronger too. Edinburgh are strengthening their squad for next season already.

The Welsh seem to be taking a backwards step but I'd expect them to improve too after next season. It depends on how many fans come to watch them. The Scarlets look to be in the best position from this end. Their stadium is almost paid for now (I think?). The Dragons will struggle for a while you'd think and Cardiff have offloaded half their squad so they've a hill to climb too. The positives for the Welsh teams is that its a fresh start and some of the deadwood is gone.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:
To be honest I don't understand why it is so difficult to convince Irish guys to join us, I mean we are a few hours from Dublin, we are getting closer to challenging for trophies, almost guaranteed to be playing in the HEC and can provide the opportunity to learn from and play alongside world class players like Pienar, Ferris and Bowe.

I really don't get it

I think you might have hit the nail on the head there, Rodders. Incentives for southerners to try it are going up all the while. Maybe that was the only thing missing, the attaction of going to a side that had serious ambitions and was showing them.

Now Ulster are in that position - ambitious might be even too shy a word to use when downright ruthlessness might be a more accurate word. Conviction is in the air up in Ulster and I think southern eyes will begin to look up there, especially if the southern eyes watching are not getting enough time with their own Province.

The BIG plus would actually be that us Southerners would also feel more of an affinity with Ulster and tighten the all-Ireland bond the Provinces create come International time.

NOT that that feeling doesn't already exist and I'll be almost as passionately looking for an Ulster victory at the weekend as a Leinster one. But having a few Leinster lads up there, possibly central in helping Ulster collect some trophies - yep, I'd like the sound of that. It would be a positive development for the continued growth of rugby on this island, not to mention the growth in closeness between two historically and painfully divided communities.

Here is some food for thought. Though trophies, loyalty to your province and playing in big packed stadiums may be factors perhaps the most significant factor is Ulster’s training facilities compared to that of our Irish counterparts? From my understanding Leinster and Munster train at universities. Top of the range training facilities compared to Ulster’s, which from my understanding is pretty basic, could tip the balance for guys looking to develop their game. Realistically Newbridge is ‘the office’ for the Ulster players. Perhaps when players come up to look around and see the coaches office is a portable cabin, the weights room is a storage container and a few times a week to gotta drive to the other side of town to use Jordantown’s sporting facilities just doesn’t cut it compared to where they come from.

JayMaster3000 wrote:Here is some food for thought. Though trophies, loyalty to your province and playing in big packed stadiums may be factors perhaps the most significant factor is Ulster’s training facilities compared to that of our Irish counterparts? From my understanding Leinster and Munster train at universities. Top of the range training facilities compared to Ulster’s, which from my understanding is pretty basic, could tip the balance for guys looking to develop their game. Realistically Newbridge is ‘the office’ for the Ulster players. Perhaps when players come up to look around and see the coaches office is a portable cabin, the weights room is a storage container and a few times a week to gotta drive to the other side of town to use Jordantown’s sporting facilities just doesn’t cut it compared to where they come from.

Interesting I never knew that, that would not fill people with confidence. Any idea what Connacht do.

I think how teams train says alot about their drive.

I remember when we played an unage game and we laughed how much warm up the other team was doing. Suffice it to say we got killed

On another topic they talked about the NFL draft. Could the IRFU tell the provinces to pick 3 players and then the rest are picked like the draft.

JayMaster3000 wrote:Here is some food for thought. Though trophies, loyalty to your province and playing in big packed stadiums may be factors perhaps the most significant factor is Ulster’s training facilities compared to that of our Irish counterparts? From my understanding Leinster and Munster train at universities. Top of the range training facilities compared to Ulster’s, which from my understanding is pretty basic, could tip the balance for guys looking to develop their game. Realistically Newbridge is ‘the office’ for the Ulster players. Perhaps when players come up to look around and see the coaches office is a portable cabin, the weights room is a storage container and a few times a week to gotta drive to the other side of town to use Jordantown’s sporting facilities just doesn’t cut it compared to where they come from.

I take it you haven't been to newFORGE lately Jay? Yes the facilities were woefully behind other provinces when Matt Williams took over, and that was the first thing he put right. Jordanstown BTW have some of the best sports science facilities in Europe and the rehab unit has been used by various members of the Ireland team.

Jay - Ulsters training facilities are outstanding.
IHumph said they were better than Leicester for example