The tired overplayed French and the fresh PRO12 with a Mickey Mouse league

An article in the Irish Times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0501/1224315404313.html

FORMER LEINSTER head coach Michael Cheika has warned French authorities to make changes or risk seeing Celtic teams dominate Europe’s top competition for the foreseeable future.

The man who led the defending Heineken Cup champions to their first European title believes Clermont Auvergne paid for the punishing schedule that French clubs have faced this season.

“Clermont were too tired to win,” Cheika told French rugby newspaper Midi Olympique, after watching his old side hold on to win Sunday’s Heineken Cup semi-final in Bordeaux.

“Between the Top 14, the European Cup, the Six Nations and the World Cup, it’s unmanageable. The schedule is too heavy for French clubs. With more freshness, Clermont would have without doubt won this semi-final.”

Leinster fans would point out that Clermont were comfortably able to rotate their expensively-assembled squad in advance of Sunday’s game. However, Cheika is not alone in France in believing that changes are required in order for French clubs to consistently compete in the latter stages of European competition.

“If the French governing body don’t review the organisation of the calendar, they risk seeing the Celts winning every year.”

The Stade Francais coach also feels the current system of qualification for the Heineken Cup is unfair on French clubs.

“The method of qualification has to change. Edinburgh are second last in the Celtic League but they’re assured of playing in the Heineken Cup next season. In those conditions, it’s obviously easier to manage the amount of time players play.”

Strangely he starts off by giving the impression that he's urging the French to make changes. But then in the end his only proposal is for the Celts to change their qualification rules.

The Montpellier coach also has a view

In his column in sports daily L’Equipe, meanwhile, Fabien Galthié suggested Leinster’s victory proved that Irish rugby had got its organisation right.

“In the end, the all-Irish final validates the provincial system in the country,” the Montpellier coach said. “After the domination of Munster, we’re now experiencing that of Leinster and the rise in power of Ulster, although that province is organised a little differently with a strong South African influence.

I think he's right in that he points to the Irish system working very well. Not necessarily the Welsh, Scottish or Italians, who've never won a HC. Surely one other nation from the league would have at least one cup win along with Ireland's 6 if it was the league that gave such an advantage. The Irish are getting it more right than anyone, no matter what league they're in. They take care of star players. They rotate squads, keep everyone fresh and still compete well on all fronts. And they're outperforming the expensively assembled French squads with mostly home grown players.

In my opinion all 6 Nations have to be guaranteed representation in Europe's top tournament. That's the whole point of it. That's why it was created. So qualification based on PRO12 position is a non starter. You could very quickly see the Italians or the Scots disappear from the HC altogether which is not good for the long term health of European rugby. It's the European Cup. All 6 nations must be involved

I'd be happy to increase the number of French and English teams to relieve some of the pressure to qualify. And I'd be happy to base each years HC seeding on league position, to ensure a PRO12 team can't ignore the league without scuppering their seeding for the next year.

But the fact that the English and French believe they're flogging their own players half to death is not Ireland's problem. They must look at their own fixture list, their own lack of a reasonable limit on player game time, possibly their own relegation, and the English must look at the size of the salary cap.

I don't want to see them potentially ruin Italian rugby in its infancy, in order to increase their own chances of silverware. If they have a problem, it's solvable by looking at what they themselves are doing. If they don't want to change then fair enough. But don't expect the PRO12 teams to change their rules to help French and English teams win the HC. Have a look at the ingredients of Irish success. And see if there's anything you can take from it.

It's all very well saying that if Clermont hadn't been tired they would have won but I would counter that by saying that had Leinster got the luck of a home draw or even a neutral venue they would have comfortably won that

Standulstermen wrote:It's all very well saying that if Clermont hadn't been tired they would have won but I would counter that by saying that had Leinster got the luck of a home draw or even a neutral venue they would have comfortably won that

Although I do not agree with what they are saying, what you said are to totally different terms of events. What they are saying is the scheduling stopped Claremont from winning, which is totally rubbish, which is something they can change, the luck of the draw though would always be there no matter how our both leagues were set out. But, you are right, if Leinster had the luck of the draw, then they would have put a cricket score on them, what if Edinburgh had the luck of the draw and played the semi at Murrifield ?

So basically, what Cheika is saying is that Leinster have a better squad than ASM and uses their players better, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

From the Guardian,

"The Heineken Cup final will be an all-Ireland affair, which has prompted inquests in England and Wales about why their sides had such a poor campaign in Europe.

England cite the salary cap, so why will not France be represented at Twickenham later this month, even if two Top 14 sides will be fighting it out in the Amlin Challenge Cup final at the Stoop on the Friday evening before the final?

Do the threat of relegation and the competition for places in the following season's Heineken Cup handicap English and French sides? In which case, why has the impact made by the Welsh regions been so feeble?

There will always be reasons and excuses, but luck also plays a part, as last weekend's semi-finals showed. Ulster had a referee in Romain Poite who allowed them to exploit their dominant scrum against Edinburgh.

The following day, Clermont Auvergne had a referee in Wayne Barnes who did not allow them to take advantage of their superiority up front against Leinster.

Had the approaches of the two officials been different, Edinburgh may be preparing to face Clermont in the final. Referees, as the World Cup final showed, can still have an undue influence in rugby union"

Is that the Guardian, the English newspaper?

Oh, it is? Oh, OK then....

"The Heineken Cup final will be an all-Ireland affair, which has prompted inquests in England and Wales about why their sides had such a poor campaign in Europe.

I can answer that..... It's because they are substandard* rugby teams.

*ahem

Looks like the provinces have some people rattled.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Looks like the provinces have some people rattled.

Pity the international team couldn't .

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Looks like the provinces have some people rattled.

Pity the international team couldn't .

The international team has me rattled.....

Nice article Feckless

This is all a bit of a bluster...

The french teams buy huge squads full of international players then whinge they can't win when they are trying so hard to win their own league/playoff/avoid relegation!

The Irish clubs are particularly strong for one reason, they have money, they have a set up in which to compete wage wise and they have numerous perks that the Welsh, Scots don't.

The fact that the Rabo is a mickey mouse league is poor for all concerned. Teams take fringe players to places like the RDS and Thomond these days. Theres little reward to win tough games away from home, and too many negatives of travelling with your top players. Look at Edinburgh, they basically threw their away games this year and fielded their first team in HC only.

The Irish clubs are particularly strong for one reason, they have money, they have a set up in which to compete wage wise and they have numerous perks that the Welsh, Scots don't.

Wrong.

We are particularly strong because we are better.

Ye Irish players are better Boyne, highlighted by your GS this year!

You have stronger sides because you can attract/keep higher quality players with your abilities and wage pot!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ye Irish players are better Boyne, highlighted by your GS this year!

You have stronger sides because you can attract/keep higher quality players with your abilities and wage pot!!!

By that logic the ospreys should have had a couple of HECs under their belt by now. I do agree though that over the last season there is a belt tightening in welsh rugby that isn't happening in Ireland to the same extent.

I think the most impressive team this season have been Ulster.

Leinster's progress last season in the HC was much more impressive. This season they had one of the easiest pools, the easiest quarter final opponent though credit must be given for knocking out the probably the 2nd best side in Europe,Clermont.

Luck of the pools is important. Put Edinburgh in a tougher pool next season and I guarantee they won't escape.

The English and French sides only have themselves to blame.

Saints really let themselves down. Leicester weren't brutal enough albeit in a tough group. Quins self imploded. Not much was expected of Gloucester,London Irish and Bath.

Saracens showed their limitations against Clermont.

So it's not just the English clubs making noises. When will the new ERC deal be sorted out? Anybody think there will be any real change?

In my opinion all 6 Nations have to be guaranteed representation in Europe's top tournament. That's the whole point of it. That's why it was created. So qualification based on PRO12 position is a non starter. You could very quickly see the Italians or the Scots disappear from the HC altogether which is not good for the long term health of European rugby. It's the European Cup. All 6 nations must be involved

I've been thinking about this. How about if the best placed team from each partaking union gains qualification for the HEC. The rest of the places are given out based on league position. Top 7 from each league would be fair wouldn't it? Add in the HEC winner, ACC winner and another Irish (for contributions to rugby) and job's a good'un

beshocked wrote:I think the most impressive team this season have been Ulster.

I think we'd all agree with that one beshocked.... .....

Did a journalist really write this?

England cite the salary cap, so why will not France be represented at Twickenham later this month, even if two Top 14 sides will be fighting it out in the Amlin Challenge Cup final at the Stoop on the Friday evening before the final?

thebluesmancometh wrote:This is all a bit of a bluster...

The french teams buy huge squads full of international players then whinge they can't win when they are trying so hard to win their own league/playoff/avoid relegation!

The Irish clubs are particularly strong for one reason, they have money, they have a set up in which to compete wage wise and they have numerous perks that the Welsh, Scots don't.

The fact that the Rabo is a mickey mouse league is poor for all concerned. Teams take fringe players to places like the RDS and Thomond these days. Theres little reward to win tough games away from home, and too many negatives of travelling with your top players. Look at Edinburgh, they basically threw their away games this year and fielded their first team in HC only.

I agree to a certain extent. There is no doubt that the league protects a lot of international players. Stephen Ferris has only played 5 league games this year. This is unacceptable. Can't remember the last time I saw Sam Warburton in a Blues shirt, never mind in the league. However the fact still remains that the league only really seems to benefit the Irish teams, which suggest that we have something more other than money or some magical league system that allows us to perform so well. Perhaps a better player pool? In Ireland the game works well, though the international team is slacking.
You also say that most English and French teams are playing for league/play-off/avoid relegation. You can't fight relegation and fight for play-offs, that a contradiction. The teams at the bottom of the Celtic league don't have to worry about relegation but they never reach knock out rugby so it doesn't really matter what happens at the bottom, while the top teams fight for knock out rugby and play-offs. Hence if only the top half of all the leagues played each other and didn't play the bottom half I would think the result would still be very similar. I think the reason Irish rugby is so good right now is for reasons other than which league they play in.

Saying all this though I agree that the Rabo is a bit of a mickey mouse league. We hardly ever get full strength teams and the European qualification is unfair, both of these issues need to be addressed. I also say out with the Italians.

Hammer

You can't go by league, I would counter your proposal with...

Each nation gets 4 spots each to do with what they will as all nations are equal and need representation...

Therefore France and England would need to sacrifice places.

And the Irish for services to rugby??? Really?!

Jay the forward slash (/) represents items that aren't mutually exclusive, therefore all teams in the league compete for at least one of the 3, not all of them!

The 'regional' setup is new to everyone else in the league except the Irish, it isn't too unfair to say that it is 100 year old clubs Vs 10 year olds and 2 year olds!

The Connaght setup annoys me too, If the Dragons were to offload their best performing players every year, and only gets funded pathetically it'd make the other 3 nations stronger too. Imagine Lydiate and Falatau at the Blues!!!

The very fact that Ulster have gone from being an average Rabo poor HC team to a HC final with a few mill invested says about all I need to know!

HammerofThunor wrote:So it's not just the English clubs making noises. When will the new ERC deal be sorted out? Anybody think there will be any real change?

In my opinion all 6 Nations have to be guaranteed representation in Europe's top tournament. That's the whole point of it. That's why it was created. So qualification based on PRO12 position is a non starter. You could very quickly see the Italians or the Scots disappear from the HC altogether which is not good for the long term health of European rugby. It's the European Cup. All 6 nations must be involved

I've been thinking about this. How about if the best placed team from each partaking union gains qualification for the HEC. The rest of the places are given out based on league position. Top 7 from each league would be fair wouldn't it? Add in the HEC winner, ACC winner and another Irish (for contributions to rugby) and job's a good'un

I thought about it before and looked at previous league standing. You'd be surprised how little it changes what team qualifies. The fact is most PRO12 teams qualify because each union has their allocation and the PRO12 nations have a very limited number of teams they can enter.

The seeding through league position idea is better. Because it makes league position immediately matter, for all teams from top to bottom. Leinster could slip from top seed status after a poor league campaign. And rather than banish the Italians, it gives them an opportunity to drive for a 3rd or 2nd seeding through league position and gives them a better opportunity to have a crack at getting out of a pool. It would also mix up the fairly rigid seeding system we have now, and bring more variety to the pools.



Bluesman, as far as I know there is not a single player who hails from Connacht playing at any of the other provinces. In fact it's the other way around.

Really, so Carr, Keatley and Cronin all got their chances playing at their own clubs, they were developed and nurtured by their respective clubs, and given a shot when they were ready??

NO they were farmed off to the feeder club who exist purely to provide the other 3 with a place to send nothing players to get a lot of gametime in the hope they come good!!!

Why anyone at Connaght bothers I don't know, it's basically IRFU fringe player headquarters. The fans will never see success, never see international players competing for them, and will never have 'good times'

thebluesmancometh wrote:Jay the forward slash (/) represents items that aren't mutually exclusive, therefore all teams in the league compete for at least one of the 3, not all of them!

The 'regional' setup is new to everyone else in the league except the Irish, it isn't too unfair to say that it is 100 year old clubs Vs 10 year olds and 2 year olds!

The Connaght setup annoys me too, If the Dragons were to offload their best performing players every year, and only gets funded pathetically it'd make the other 3 nations stronger too. Imagine Lydiate and Falatau at the Blues!!!

The very fact that Ulster have gone from being an average Rabo poor HC team to a HC final with a few mill invested says about all I need to know!

What investment is this?

Ulster get equal funding to Leinster and Munster nothing more(don't know what the story is with Connacht these days).They used to get less funding than the other two but that was because the IRFU didn't trust the guys running Ulster to use the money properly.

Carr and Keatley are from Leinster and Cronin is from Munster. Connacht haven't been able to produce as many local players because rugby simply isn't that popular there. It's growing however. I get your point though. But those players leaving Connacht had nothing to do with the IRFU and everything to do with the players themselves and their own ambitions.

The IRFU have agreed to support Connacht better financially. And the strict rules coming in on foreigners won't apply to them. They have been better in the last couple of years, since Elwood took over. Apparently they have a plan to become a top European club. Whether they do it or not is up to them. They'll have some job catching the big three Irish provinces.


By the way, Ulster have the same funding as Munster and Leinster.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Really, so Carr, Keatley and Cronin all got their chances playing at their own clubs, they were developed and nurtured by their respective clubs, and given a shot when they were ready??

NO they were farmed off to the feeder club who exist purely to provide the other 3 with a place to send nothing players to get a lot of gametime in the hope they come good!!!

Why anyone at Connaght bothers I don't know, it's basically IRFU fringe player headquarters. The fans will never see success, never see international players competing for them, and will never have 'good times'

You should watch out for them next season,Elwood has made a number of signings which will increase their squad depth and improve the quality in some key positions.They have another season of HC rugby so will get more season ticket holders and make more money to further improve.Give them 10 years and Connacht will no longer be the poor relation of Irish rugby.

I know where they are from, but they were deemed surplus to requirements, and therefore farmed out to Connacht. I have such a soft spot for Connacht, having lived in Clare and going to Galway very often, the weather scars, the rain, the poor poor place and rugby is growing rapidly. It just doesn't stand a chance.

Ulster have recently received investmnent, and have been able to afford the likes of Afoa, Wannenberg, Pienaar, Muller etc...
They are funded the same as the other 2, but they have received investment recently.

asoreleftshoulder

If that 10 year plan is anything like the welsh regions plan of winning the HC within the decade I won't hold my breath!

Give them 10 years and Connacht will no longer be the poor relation of Irish rugby.

Not sure about that. One of the Irish teams have to be the weakest. It's no surprise it's the province with the lowest population and the least interest in rugby. I think they'll get stronger and more popular, relative to where they used to be. But It's hard to see them surpassing the provinces with traditional, strong rugby culture.

Bluesman, everybody likes Connacht. Thanks to the IRFU they couldn't have had more obstacles put in their way. They've really been up against it, and even had to fight for their existence when the IRFU tried to wind them up.

But the IRFU have finally come round to actually helping Connacht get better (what a novel idea!), rather than squeeze them out of existence.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Give them 10 years and Connacht will no longer be the poor relation of Irish rugby.

Not sure about that. One of the Irish teams have to be the weakest. It's no surprise it's the province with the lowest population and the least interest in rugby. I think they'll get stronger and more popular, relative to where they used to be. But It's hard to see them surpassing the provinces with traditional, strong rugby culture.

Bluesman, everybody likes Connacht. Thanks to the IRFU they couldn't have had more obstacles put in their way. They've really been up against it, and even had to fight for their existence when the IRFU tried to wind them up.

But the IRFU have finally come round to actually helping Connacht get better (what a novel idea!), rather than squeeze them out of existence.

Ah well I'm not claiming they're gonna be dominating or anything like that but compared to where they are now I think they'll be miles ahead.They are starting to produce homegrown players which is hugely important and they are beginning to get decent crowds to the Sportsground regularly which brings in more money and funds further development.
The only hitch I can see is if the Irish teams stop doing well in Europe and Connacht are left out of the HC for a few years running,it could disrupt the momentum they are building but in all honesty I think they'll be a much stronger team next season and will only continue to improve over the next few years.I really rate Elwood as a coach,I think he had a great first season and has worked miarcles this year with the way his squad was decimated last summer.

Connacht can't count on an Irish team winning the HC every year. I'm sure their plan involves the presumption of Amlin rugby for the foreseeable future. Any HC qualification and the money it brings will be seen as a bonus.

I think you have to look for reasons as to why a club with 2-3 times the budget lost to an Irish province, but in truth the Celts have banded together and created a league that allows player development and minimal pressure.

It doesnt matter how Munster, Ulster or Leinster do, they all get the same amount of money and are not attempting to slit each others throats like English and French clubs. The Rabo direct teams basically work together, not against each other.

I think there should be qualification based on pro12 spots, it would improve the competition and you could argue that Scotland and Italy struggle on account of their relatively small amount of key games. As for Scotland disappearing from the competition; the warriors regularly finish in the top half of the league and Edinburgh suffered from a lack of depth and you could argue that they only did so well because they didn't care about the RaboDirect. If numbers remained the same there would be ten spots and therefore you'd expect, based on player quality, the three top Irish teams, the three top Welsh teams, the two Scots teams and Treviso to qualify with the remaining teams fighting it out for the last place.

AlynDavies wrote:It doesnt matter how Munster, Ulster or Leinster do, they all get the same amount of money and are not attempting to slit each others throats like English and French clubs.

I'm not entirely certain about this but I'd say the separate Irish branches keep their own revenue from ticket sales and negotiate their own separate sponsorship deals. They get an equal slice of IRFU money. But I'd say their budgets aren't identical. Although they're probably similar.

Looking at the seeding based on League position for last year:

Pot 1:
Leinster (Heineken Cup winner, ML runners up)
Munster (ML winner)
Saracens (AP winners)
Leicester Tigers (AP runners up)
Toulouse (T14 winner)
Montpellier (T14 runners up)

Pot 2:
Ulster (ML SF)
Ospreys (ML SF)
Gloucester (AP SF)
Northampton Saints (AP SF)
Clermont (T14 SF)
Racing Metro (T14 SF)

Pot 3:
Scarlets (ML 5th)
Cardiff Blues (ML 6th)
Bath (5th in AP)
London Irish (6th in AP)
Castres (T14 SF)
Biarritz (T14 SF)

Pot 4:
Harlequins (Amlin Cup winners, 7th in AP)
Edinburgh (ML 8th)
Connacht (ML 9th)
Treviso (ML 10th)
Glasgow (ML 11th)
Aironi (ML 12th)

The most noticeable thing is the 5 Magners league clubs in Pot 4, and I'd guess the way this system is set up there will always be 4, 5 or 6 Magners Clubs in Pot 4 (4+ any bonus places for teams winning Euro competitions). Some will say this is unfair, but should a team finishing 8th in a domestic league really be ranked any more highly?

To me this looks like a much fairer split than the actual Heineken Cup seedings, with the better teams higher up and the weaker teams (on the whole) lower down. Other benefits include no rollover of points (you can't continuously trade on past glories - it's your finish in the last season only) and the fact that Heineken Cup seeding isn't based on Heineken Cup finishes you can't get trapped in a loop: eg high(low) seeding, easy(hard) group, good(poor) showing, more(less) ERC points, higher(lower) seeding etc.

BoyneRFC wrote:Is that the Guardian, the English newspaper?

Oh, it is? Oh, OK then....

"The Heineken Cup final will be an all-Ireland affair, which has prompted inquests in England and Wales about why their sides had such a poor campaign in Europe.

I can answer that..... It's because they are substandard* rugby teams.

*ahem

I could possibly understand your 'comment' if one of the other semi finalists were English but they weren't.
English sides weren't good enough !

But I think the point about the refereeing is a valid one.

robbo, it's not a bad idea is it? And it really would go some way to appease the English and French, in that PRO12 teams will have to fight for position more seriously to avoid the dreaded bottom seed status. In a way it would work as a substitute for relegation, which can't happen in the PRO12

But it would also ensure that top level European rugby for all 6 Nations remains in place. I think it's a compromise that should be considered when the 6 get together to hammer out a new deal.

I wouldn't be surprised to see an Anglo French League in the not too distant future. This would no doubt be attractive to the Clubs and the TV companies and could replace the LV cup with not too much tweaking required to make it work.

It would be a sad day in my opinion but like it or not the English and the French prem leagues could hold the power if they went alone.

And then when the French keep winning it the English could pull out and try their hand in the southern hemisphere. If that doesn't work they could explore inter-planetary possibilities.

Robbo I love that idea. Send your suggestion to the powers that be please.

Robbo

Thats not the worst idea in the world but it would need some tweaking. It's hardly fair for a 4th place french team to be compared to a 4th place english or Rabo.

Would the likes of Perp/Biarritz be in comparison with the likes of Exeter or Glasgow?

I agree in part also that the seedings shouldn't be based on a 4 year cycle, I'd prefer to see it a 2 year cycle.

Maybe something like the IRB's ranking system, whereas you gain points for beating teams above and around you and losing points for barely beating those well below you etc... Then seed teams accordingly, except european ranking points are worth double league ranking points!

Did you know... Rabo teams cannot rotate their players. Only English and French teams can do that. When rabo teams rotate their team its called send out weakened teams. But most English and French teams use the same 15 throughout the season anyway.

Did you know... The rabo teams don't have many international players away on international duty so the world cup Aumtumn tests and 6 nations doesn't effect them.

Did you know... All English and French teams are in a relegation battle! The likes of Leicester and Toulouse have that to worry about every season and its a big dsadvantage for them.

Did you know... Its the Celtic teams fault that the other leagues overplay their players! Looking after players is making them look bad.

Did you know... That all the Rabo teams are the same. Edinburgh didn't take the league serioulsy so its a mickey mouse league.

Did you know... In Micheal Cheikas last season with Leinster they were the lowest or second lowest try scorers in the Mickey mouse league with basically the same players Schmidt has now!

International players is an interesting area.

The English and French clubs must lose half, maybe less the number of int players than the celtic teams at 6N, but French clubs must lose much more come WC time!!!

Therefore a team like Leinster who have 12 international players +, although these players only play 6 Rabo games and 8 HC games roughly, have to add 5 international games on top of that, plus 3/4 AI games. Compare that to a team like Leicester who lose around 5 int players, and are generally a very good contributor to the England setup. Oh and Castro.

The Rabo league is a good league and clearly getting better. The negative press seems to be non stop and everybody is queuing up to criticise it. I'd advise posters to stop reading the negative BS and see the league for what it is. Its raising the bar for Celtic teams in terms of growing rugby. Its still not perfect and some games are poor but its light years better than it was not so long ago.

The trouble with all of the above is that folk looking at structures are comparing apples with pears. French and English club system simply will not compare with top down centrally controlled franchises.
Irish fans clearly like the concentrated better quality (but reduced access) in their professional tier, the welsh & scottish fans clearly dont.

Bath played Leinster in Dublin this season with three hookers, club captain (Hooper), a current international flanker (at that time - Moody), also two further flankers in Fearns and Skirving and first choice centre (Hipkiss) all injured, the bench had three academy players. Leinster however had their first pick squad all fit with the major exception of BOD and a match day squad containing a dozen current internationals who play for the same test side.

Nobody was surprised at the result.

Quite rightly it is not up to the R12 to change their system - that the French and English bodies agreed to. However professional sport based on commercial realities will mean that french and english will inevitably flex economic muscle come ERC renegotiation time.

Personally I believe the HC should be just 16 sides ( 5 from each league + the winner) and the Amblin should be given a far higher profile. The LV Cup should be ditched as the welsh just send their schoolboy squads and take the cash and instead have a knockout cup between the AP and championship sides.

profitius wrote:The Rabo league is a good league and clearly getting better. The negative press seems to be non stop and everybody is queuing up to criticise it. I'd advise posters to stop reading the negative BS and see the league for what it is. Its raising the bar for Celtic teams in terms of growing rugby. Its still not perfect and some games are poor but its light years better than it was not so long ago.

Whole heartedly agree, n the last post from this guy was rather amusing to.

The Rabo is continually improving each year but whats more important is the rotation that is essential in modern Rugby is creating opportunities for some really talented young players to make their mark on the game. Would North be touted as one of world rugby's most exciting wings if he had not been given a chance to make his mark as an unknown in the league at 18.

As for money been the reason the Irish teams are so succesfull, that could be used as an argument in the league but its nonsense as far as the HC is concerned as the French teams have far bigger playing budgets than the Irish, the biggest difference for me with the Irish tregions is self belief so all credit to their coaching set up.

profitius wrote:
The Rabo league is a good league and clearly getting better. The negative press seems to be non stop and everybody is queuing up to criticise it. I'd advise posters to stop reading the negative BS and see the league for what it is. Its raising the bar for Celtic teams in terms of growing rugby. Its still not perfect and some games are poor but its light years better than it was not so long ago.

Substitute Celtic for Irish & I would agree with you.

If players are good enough they are old enough in any league.

Recwatcher

I agree the HC could be cut down to 16 teams, but I'd argue each nation of Wales, Ire, Eng, Scot, Italy and France get 2 spots each, with the winner and Amlin winner in too.

Intotouch and Bluesman

Just so we know, it wasn't my idea. It was the OP's idea, I just checked how it would have worked out. I like it though, I think it would work nicely.